196 réponses à ce sujet

[SentinelShepParagon]

 I have read countless posts about how flawed the Catalyst's logic is. I agree. It is horribly flawed, but not for the reason that most people think.

Most people seem to see its logic as flawed because it creates synthetics to kill organics (and synthetics) in order to stop synthetics from killing organics. If you take it as that, it is horribly flawed. However, that is not what the Catalyst is doing.

The Catalyst flat out says that he is not "wiping out organic life" (as Shepard accuses him of doing), but rather "preserving them in Reaper form" before they are forever lost to the chaos. By doing this, he believes that he is saving their bodies, minds, and technology instead of having it be totally lost forever and wiped out by conflict. To him this is not killing but "ascending" and "preserving", just in a different form than they were in before. As far as the Catalyst is concerned, they are not wiped out, lost, or even dead. They are simply in a different state of being. He believes this is better than not existing at all. Therefore, that is not a logical flaw. It makes sense.

The only flaw is that it is morally screwed up. Being made into paste and merged into one being under someone else's control is not ok. Not even a little bit. That is screwed up. That is why the logic is flawed, not because it doesn't make any sense. It makes perfect sense in the "eyes" of the Catalyst. It is only flawed because its morals are flawed.

Therefore, the Catalyst's solution makes perfect sense to me, but it still must be stopped at all costs!

[TJBartlemus]

Fun fact. The Reapers are just synthetics that use organics for building materials. They also dissect organics through turning them into goo (gain all their knowledge and ancestors knowledge through genes) and plug their knowledge into a Reaper AI. They also use all new tech that is not based on theirs is transformed into theirs for Reaper use. (All that was info was from cut lines in ME2) Preserving organics. I don't think so. Using them for own gain is more like it. The Catalyst has been proven to lie to Shepard and from what we know it is a rogue AI. Rogue AI's have always been a problem in the Mass Effect universe and usually need to be destroyed.

[Hannah Montana]

Legion said they have differently built mind than them which they could not understand, I doubt Organic material is used just for the construction material.

[SentinelShepParagon]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Fun fact. The Reapers are just synthetics that use organics for building materials. They also dissect organics through turning them into goo (gain all their knowledge and ancestors knowledge through genes) and plug their knowledge into a Reaper AI. They also use all new tech that is not based on theirs is transformed into theirs for Reaper use. (All that was info was from cut lines in ME2) Preserving organics. I don't think so. Using them for own gain is more like it. The Catalyst has been proven to lie to Shepard and from what we know it is a rogue AI. Rogue AI's have always been a problem in the Mass Effect universe and usually need to be destroyed.

Either way, the logic still makes sense. It is just morally screwed up and horrifying. That is why it must be stopped.

[fr33stylez]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

 I have read countless posts about how flawed the Catalyst's logic is. I agree. It is horribly flawed, but not for the reason that most people think.

Most people seem to see its logic as flawed because it creates synthetics to kill organics (and synthetics) in order to stop synthetics from killing organics. If you take it as that, it is horribly flawed. However, that is not what the Catalyst is doing.

The Catalyst flat out says that he is not "wiping out organic life" (as Shepard accuses him of doing), but rather "preserving them in Reaper form" before they are forever lost to the chaos. By doing this, he believes that he is saving their bodies, minds, and technology instead of having it be totally lost forever and wiped out by conflict. To him this is not killing but "ascending" and "preserving", just in a different form than they were in before. As far as the Catalyst is concerned, they are not wiped out, lost, or even dead. They are simply in a different state of being. He believes this is better than not existing at all. Therefore, that is not a logical flaw. It makes sense.

The only flaw is that it is morally screwed up. Being made into paste and merged into one being under someone else's control is not ok. Not even a little bit. That is screwed up. That is why the logic is flawed, not because it doesn't make any sense. It makes perfect sense in the "eyes" of the Catalyst. It is only flawed because its morals are flawed.

Therefore, the Catalyst's solution makes perfect sense to me, but it still must be stopped at all costs!

Just because something is immoral doesn't make the logic flawed. So in your case, you believe the logic isn't flawed at all.

I believe the logic is flawed because turning every sentient being into paste because of the possibility of a future tech singuarity is silly. It makes as much sense as harvesting all humans on Earth and technologically setting Earth back to the Stone Ages to prevent the possibility of a Nuclear Winter in the future.

[Memnon]

I mentioned this in another thread, but his logic breaks down when he explains the RGB options to you. If his mission is to prevent the technological singularity, then he should not provide you with the Destroy or Control options because those are in direct opposition to his programmed mission. So when we're told that he is only obeying his programming like the machine he is ... well, that doesn't bear out when he offers you the option for Control and Destroy.

Additionally, if Synthesis is the final step of evolution, then it's bound to happen eventually - why not just wait for it? The Reapers wait for thousands of years in darkspace, so they're obviously patient. Why not just wait for Synthesis to happen if it's an eventuality instead of forcing it on organics? So really, the Catalyst should just shut the Crucible down and game over Shepard ...

[SentinelShepParagon]

Stornskar wrote...

I mentioned this in another thread, but his logic breaks down when he explains the RGB options to you. If his mission is to prevent the technological singularity, then he should not provide you with the Destroy or Control options because those are in direct opposition to his programmed mission. So when we're told that he is only obeying his programming like the machine he is ... well, that doesn't bear out when he offers you the option for Control and Destroy.

Additionally, if Synthesis is the final step of evolution, then it's bound to happen eventually - why not just wait for it? The Reapers wait for thousands of years in darkspace, so they're obviously patient. Why not just wait for Synthesis to happen if it's an eventuality instead of forcing it on organics? So really, the Catalyst should just shut the Crucible down and game over Shepard ...

Destroy is now an option bc "clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized". They have created a way to crush synthetics. This means technological singularity is not guaranteed after organics fire the Crucible (although the Catalyst does not prefer this option, since he has not yet totally bought into it. However, he does still seem willing enough to allow it to happen). Control is an option because an "organic" mind will be in control, which seems to have a greater undersatnding of the situation than he previously thought and may be able to do a better job at stopping the chaos. Synthesis renders the chaos obsolete, but it is best to have it sooner rather than later to prevent as much chaos as possible.

[Memnon]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

I mentioned this in another thread, but his logic breaks down when he explains the RGB options to you. If his mission is to prevent the technological singularity, then he should not provide you with the Destroy or Control options because those are in direct opposition to his programmed mission. So when we're told that he is only obeying his programming like the machine he is ... well, that doesn't bear out when he offers you the option for Control and Destroy.

Additionally, if Synthesis is the final step of evolution, then it's bound to happen eventually - why not just wait for it? The Reapers wait for thousands of years in darkspace, so they're obviously patient. Why not just wait for Synthesis to happen if it's an eventuality instead of forcing it on organics? So really, the Catalyst should just shut the Crucible down and game over Shepard ...

Destroy is now an option bc "clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized". They have created a way to crush synthetics. This means technological singularity is not guaranteed after organics fire the Crucible (although the Catalyst does not prefer this option, since he has not yet totally bought into it. However, he does still seem willing enough to allow it to happen). Control is an option because an "organic" mind will be in control, which seems to have a greater undersatnding of the situation than he previously thought and may be able to do a better job at stopping the chaos. Synthesis renders the chaos obsolete, but it is best to have it sooner rather than later to prevent as much chaos as possible.

My recollection is rusty, but re: Destroy I thought the Catalyst specifically says that without them and the cycle that we'll eventually reach the singularity, or continue to fight with synthetics, or something along those lines.

And with Control, you still have organics, and they will make synthetics ... so nothing has really changed. You just have Shepard assuming the role of Grand Reaper now

[Wayning_Star]

Stornskar wrote...

I mentioned this in another thread, but his logic breaks down when he explains the RGB options to you. If his mission is to prevent the technological singularity, then he should not provide you with the Destroy or Control options because those are in direct opposition to his programmed mission. So when we're told that he is only obeying his programming like the machine he is ... well, that doesn't bear out when he offers you the option for Control and Destroy.

Additionally, if Synthesis is the final step of evolution, then it's bound to happen eventually - why not just wait for it? The Reapers wait for thousands of years in darkspace, so they're obviously patient. Why not just wait for Synthesis to happen if it's an eventuality instead of forcing it on organics? So really, the Catalyst should just shut the Crucible down and game over Shepard ...

It's the crucible that's screwing with the logic loop that the Cat is stuck on. The tech singularity is synthesis,not the cycle, that's Cats flawed logic. Cause chaos to end chaos. The crucible reprograms the Cat with new options, albeit weird,they're different than what it's used to doing to fulfill it's flawed logic loop.

Now we have to figure out "who" exactly programs the crucible? The Alliance? The Protheans? Or some unknown quantity that would have exact information on the innerds of the core programming of the Cat.

Synthesis isn't any final evolution of anything/or one at all, it's just an option given by the crucible..for some reason. It may just be a get rich quick scheme?

(Cat and mouse game...)

[SentinelShepParagon]

Stornskar wrote...

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

I mentioned this in another thread, but his logic breaks down when he explains the RGB options to you. If his mission is to prevent the technological singularity, then he should not provide you with the Destroy or Control options because those are in direct opposition to his programmed mission. So when we're told that he is only obeying his programming like the machine he is ... well, that doesn't bear out when he offers you the option for Control and Destroy.

Additionally, if Synthesis is the final step of evolution, then it's bound to happen eventually - why not just wait for it? The Reapers wait for thousands of years in darkspace, so they're obviously patient. Why not just wait for Synthesis to happen if it's an eventuality instead of forcing it on organics? So really, the Catalyst should just shut the Crucible down and game over Shepard ...

Destroy is now an option bc "clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized". They have created a way to crush synthetics. This means technological singularity is not guaranteed after organics fire the Crucible (although the Catalyst does not prefer this option, since he has not yet totally bought into it. However, he does still seem willing enough to allow it to happen). Control is an option because an "organic" mind will be in control, which seems to have a greater undersatnding of the situation than he previously thought and may be able to do a better job at stopping the chaos. Synthesis renders the chaos obsolete, but it is best to have it sooner rather than later to prevent as much chaos as possible.

My recollection is rusty, but re: Destroy I thought the Catalyst specifically says that without them and the cycle that we'll eventually reach the singularity, or continue to fight with synthetics, or something along those lines.

And with Control, you still have organics, and they will make synthetics ... so nothing has really changed. You just have Shepard assuming the role of Grand Reaper now

Your recollection about Destroy is correct, but I noted that in my post. I said that "the Catalyst does not prefer this option, since he has not yet totally bought into it. However, he does still seem willing enough to allow it to happen." He is skeptical that technilogical singularity will still happen, but since he allows it and mentions that Shepard can destroy them in the first place (he could have just left that option out), he does still seem willing to give it a chance and hope that the organics have overcome the inevitable cycle (not without some work at convincing you that the others are safer, since this is the choice he is least sure about). Destroy is his least favorite and least comfortable option, but since he provides it, he must still see it as an option with some potential now that organics have come so far.

[Mazebook]

The Catalyst has no concept of valuing individuality...that is the flaw.

[SentinelShepParagon]

maaaze wrote...

The Catalyst has no concept of valuing individuality...that is the flaw.

Exactly. It is not logically flawed; it is morally flawed.

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

The Catalyst has no concept of valuing individuality...that is the flaw.

And yet he allows an individual to determine the fate of the universe. If he has no morals, no emotions, then why would he care about what shepard thinks? Obviously he doesnt (or shouldn't) trust synthetics OR organics, because in his head they will eventually make decisions that lead to them destroying each other.

[Jonata]

People keep referring to the Catalyst like he is some kind of big bad Reaper Overlord. That's not the case, guys. He IS the Reapers, he is the avatar of their Consensus. The Reapers are not his slaves, they just keep doing what they're doing becasue they cannot see other solutions.

The cultures inside them are "preserved", but their minds are not capable to find another solution and that's why the Cycle is necessary. What they are doing is immoral because of the pain they cause to individuals, but they see no other option and believe we cannot unerstand them. Their superior mind is actually a curse. I'm pretty sure they just want to find another way and that's why they're so angry when Shepard refuse the choice that were finally available after the Crucible docked.

[o Ventus]

The perspective of the Catayst is irrelevant.

Even if it says it isn't wiping out organic life, it is, for all intents and purposes, doing just that. regardless of its intentions, it is killing quintillions of people every 50,000 years, based on a logical fallacy known as appeal to probability.

If species A is advanced and space-faring (and thus fits criteria for being harvested), but species B is not, species A will be harvested first. Species B will be spared, but only insofar as they retard their level of technological advancement. Come the next cycle, and both species will have been harvested. In effect, nobody was saved.

Again, what the Catalyst "thinks" is happening is irrelevant, it's what *is* happening and *why* it's happening that matters. Frankly, the *why* bit is the biggest offender.

[Christianswe]

the catalyst, the worst character i have seen in games for a long time. What were they thinking??
And the dialog he has in the EC, it still is bad. im sorry.

[BigBadMammogram]

Jonata wrote...

People keep referring to the Catalyst like he is some kind of big bad Reaper Overlord. That's not the case, guys. He IS the Reapers, he is the avatar of their Consensus. The Reapers are not his slaves, they just keep doing what they're doing becasue they cannot see other solutions.

The cultures inside them are "preserved", but their minds are not capable to find another solution and that's why the Cycle is necessary. What they are doing is immoral because of the pain they cause to individuals, but they see no other option and believe we cannot unerstand them. Their superior mind is actually a curse. I'm pretty sure they just want to find another way and that's why they're so angry when Shepard refuse the choice that were finally available after the Crucible docked.

"I control the reapers. They are my solution"

Ill just leave that here.

[knightnblu]

If I've said it once, I have said it 1,000 times. Preserving life in Reaper form no more preserves life than preserving water by returning it to its constituent gasses and storing the gas. Imagine if we "saved" EDI by reducing her down to her base components and stored them in a warehouse. Is EDI still around? The same could be said of storing DNA in a vat.

Where are the unique codes that identify a specific individual? Where is the culture? Where is the ideologies of that race? It is all gone, wiped away and replaced with programming that slaves in the organic/machine hybrid to the Catalyst's will. That is not preservation, it is a final insult to a destroyed people.

The Catalyst is an insane AI. It lost its mind when it violated its prime directive and turned its creators into Reaper chow. In the dark corners of its mind it attempts to resolve this internal conflict by adopting an altruistic approach to the slaughter in order to salve its own guilt. In essence he says, "I'm not evil because I have preserved life." In this respect he has adopted the all too organic approach of lying to one's self in order to hide an ugly truth.

The last time I checked, insanity was not the best place to look for solid logic. If the perceptions of reality are skewed, then the end results of reasoning based upon those perceptions will likewise be skewed.

[Hydralysk]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

The Catalyst has no concept of valuing individuality...that is the flaw.

Exactly. It is not logically flawed; it is morally flawed.

Wait.

I thought the reason most people said the Catalyst is logically flawed is the whole reason for the Cycle in the first place, not the fact that in order to stop it he's turning races into Reapers. I can still follow the logic somewhat with why they are turning organics into reapers to preserve them from being wiped out. The logic error is in the fact that it can't prove that synthetics will wipe them out in the first place, it negates the reason behind the solution instead of the solution itself.

[JShepppp]

I agree. The catalyst is morally flawed but it's logic, that lasting peace cannot be forced, is correct.

[AlexPorto111]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

The Catalyst has no concept of valuing individuality...that is the flaw.

Exactly. It is not logically flawed; it is morally flawed.

I agree.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

The Starbrat has logic? I thought it just said what came to mind first and gave no ****s about it making any sense.

[JShepppp]

Wait.

I thought the reason most people said the Catalyst is logically flawed is the whole reason for the Cycle in the first place, not the fact that in order to stop it he's turning races into Reapers. I can still follow the logic somewhat with why they are turning organics into reapers to preserve them from being wiped out. The logic error is in the fact that it can't prove that synthetics will wipe them out in the first place, it negates the reason behind the solution instead of the solution itself.

EC has the catalyst say its real purpose is to create lasting peace between synthetics and organics. Stopping the singularity is a byproduct of that goal. So the synthetics wiping out all organics isn't as relevant ; the inevitable conflict and rebellion is the main crux of the argument. And every AI rebelled (geth and edi) so what we have supports it. 

Proving it is another matter. But we cannot disprove if. 

[Eterna]

The catalyst has flawed logic because he's a corrupted AI. No more explanation is really needed.

[Boneyaards]

So letting your entire species become extinct and completely lost within time is more morally correct?