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[The Night Haunter]

Now I'm not going to run around argueing why this must be true, but I will tell you why I believe it is true.

To start let's establish the nature of the Elven Gods

at about 9:50 you (Dalish Elf during Origin Story) talk with your companion about a statue. He tells you it is a statue of the Elven Gods (Creators), now when I look at it I see the Tevinter Statues honoring Dragons. Maybe the developers were just lazy and used a similiar style for both, or maybe they are supposed to be the same.

Merril tells you Blood Magic was not only known by the Elves of old, but actively practiced. Interesting but relevent how? It is a well known Myth/Legend/Fact that humans learned blood magic from Dumat, perhaps the elves learned from the same source... But how does Dumat fit into Elven religion?

In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our
gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the
People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one
of their own. And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him
as a brother, and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to
the heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted
him also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if
only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They
trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And FenHarel
sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People.
--From Codex entry: Fen'Harel: The Dread Wolf


The Forgotton Ones were sent to the Abyss huh? In quite a few real world myths the Abyss is located underground, and what creatures are under the earth in Thedas? The Old Gods of Tevinter. Perhaps they are the same as the Elven Forgotton Ones.

Now to those of you saying the Forgotton Ones aren't the Elven Gods they are their opposite that doesn't mean time and the destruction of much of Elven Lore hasn't mixed up a few things, like perhaps the Ellves learned Blood Magic from the Forgotton Ones and not their Gods (which would make sense since Blood Magic seems to be predominantly used for evil).

So we have established several different clues that point towards the Elven Gods (either just the Forgotton Ones, or perhaps both the Creators and the Forgotton) are dragons (of a unique nature).

Now onto Flemeth!

Flemeth describes herself as "A fly in the ointment..." when bringing either Fenris or Anders to Sundermount when you free her. Now what I get from this is that she went against the plans of the Gods and made her own plan. Since Fen'Harel is a brother (more on that later) to the Elven Gods, by going against the God's plans and exiling them to Heaven (the fade?) he is very much a fly in the ointment, a big fat one.

Fen'Harel is the Dread Wolf.... well that doesn't sound like a dragon right? Well that's the point, he is a trickster god, a liar and a deciever, master of illusions. What Ilusion is better than hiding your true nature behind a name? When people look for a wolf and see a dragon they think "That isn't Fen'Harel" exactly as he wants it. Same with the apparent gender change (A God is probably above the idea of genders anyway and can appear as either one should he so choose).

Flemeth says she wanted Hawke to bring her to the Free Marches not only because she had an appointment to keep, but because she wanted to be hidden. "You smuggled me here quite nicely" What could she be refering to? It has been a thousand years or more since Fen'Harel locked away all other Elven Gods, I doubt they are sitting quietly and patiently, they must be looking for a way to escape (Old Gods turning into Archdemons, hmmm....) so perhaps it is in Fen'Harels best interest to move in the shadows, where she is out of the sight of her (very angry) brothers and sisters.

SPOILERS FOR THE SILENT GROVE, read on at your own peril

In the Silent Grove one of Flemeths daughters who has recieved the ritual Morrigan was so eager to avoid (I think it is becoming one with Fen'Harel and becoming part of his essence) is trying to ressurect and/or awaken many dragons, maybe even the Old Gods? Though that is never clarified. Why would Flemeth want more dragons and maybe even more Gods? She is the middle, with the Creators on one side and the Forgotton on another, her life depends on balance, which is why she locked the rest of te gods away, but with the Old Gods being killed in Blights the balance is tipping, and should the Creators get loose they will have too much power and kill her (Flemeth/Fen'Harel). So in order to maintain the balance (and her life) she needs to counteract their potential influence. By resurrecting dragons.

note: Flemeths daughter wants Alistair to help bring back the greatest dragon which I personally think is a reference to Dumat.

END SPOILERS

Lastly both Anders and Fenris will tell Hawke that Flemeth is no mage, abomination or anything else they know of. What is left after that? A god...

All these little hints are useless on their own, but when all taken together they seem to indicate rather strongly (in my opinion, you are free to have your own) that Flemeth is Fen'Harel.

Some more speculation/interpretation that isn't directly related to Flemeth but in my opinion solidifies the basis on which I make that arguement:

If we accept that the Forgotton are the Old Gods locked in the earth and the Creators are in the Fade (maybe even posing as the human Maker) then some of what happens before the first Blight takes on new meaning. According to the Chant the Maker gets really angry when some Magisters invade the White City and he corrupts them then transports them to Dumat's cage and corrupts the Dragon as well. Now, if the Dumat was mentoring the Magisters in Blood Magic it makes sense that he would want the Magisters to attack the Creators (Maker) in an attempt to continue their old war. When the Magisters fail it makes sense that the Creators would launch a plan designed to eliminate their old enemy, by corrupting them while they are helpless and trapped. So they turn the Forgotton One's weapons against them and turn the Magisters into a plague designed to corrupt the Old Gods so that humans (and elves and dwarves) can kill them.
This seems to be a slow plan that has taken a thousand years so far and is still only 5/7's complete, but we are talking about Gods, whose patience is not limited to a Mortals understanding.



So now that I've got all that out there, I'd like to hear your thoughts/disagreements/calling-me-an-idiot-this-idea-is-stoopid. And once more for the record this is my opinion, I am not stating this is fact, merely that it seems to have a higher probability than any other idea I've heard.

[Xilizhra]

I subscribe to this theory.

[Angelo2027]

Xilizhra wrote...

I subscribe to this theory.

Me too!

[Kenshen]

It makes sense except for this part

ghostmessiah202 wrote...


Flemeth says she wanted Hawke to bring her to the Free Marches not only because she had an appointment to keep, but because she wanted to be hidden. "You smuggled me here quite nicely" What could she be refering to? 

I think you are reading too much into why Flemeth wanted to be brought to the Free Marches.  Why would she have to hide to make that journey when she doesn't really hide much from what we have seen.  I think it was just what it appeared to be, a way to get to the Free Marches safely while the other fragment dealt with the warden and Morrigan's plan.  Or it could be simple enough that she can't stay in dragon form for an extended time making the flight over the ocean impossible.  I have no proof or facts to support me this is just an opinion.

[The Night Haunter]

aryon69 wrote...

It makes sense except for this part

ghostmessiah202 wrote...


Flemeth says she wanted Hawke to bring her to the Free Marches not only because she had an appointment to keep, but because she wanted to be hidden. "You smuggled me here quite nicely" What could she be refering to? 

I think you are reading too much into why Flemeth wanted to be brought to the Free Marches.  Why would she have to hide to make that journey when she doesn't really hide much from what we have seen.  I think it was just what it appeared to be, a way to get to the Free Marches safely while the other fragment dealt with the warden and Morrigan's plan.  Or it could be simple enough that she can't stay in dragon form for an extended time making the flight over the ocean impossible.  I have no proof or facts to support me this is just an opinion.

I'll admit that part is one of the more 'guesswork' less 'real hint' parts, but I include because I like the idea

Also did you guys already believe this idea before you read the post or was this something new that you were convinced by? (I looked for other Flemeth is.. threads but there were bunches and they were hard to sort through.)

[gangly369]

I agree with aryon69. Everything else was alright with your theory, but the part about Flemeth seeking out a way to get to the Free Marches quietly? You're reading too much into that. She had an 'appointment' with the Warden that she had to keep.

Edit: And yes, there have been other theories similar to this one that I have read, just not as up to date as your own.

Modifié par gangly369, 14 août 2012 - 09:00 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Fen'Harel theory is pretty popular, particularly because Flemeth is fond of cryptic phrases and a good throaty laugh - all the better to parallel her with a trickster god.

While I haven't discounted this possibility, I think it's just as likely (since so much is possible, really) that she might be (related to) Mythal. After all, it's Mythal's altar that the amulet it taken to, where Flemeth is reborn like some phoenix.

While she is a shapeshifter, and as such, already dwells in some sort of illusion, she doesn't always mislead those that she interacts with. Maric, the Warden, and Hawke have all been given words of prophecy and warning from her, and all three have seen some merit to her portents. It may be a means to an end, a way for her to secure hazy alliances to get what she wants, yet who better to pull the wool over the eyes of than some would-be hero, yet she provides truth (albeit, truth that is snug between some lines).

It's the exchange with Merrill though that gives me some doubt as to any origin within or of the Elven pantheon. Merrill bows to her, but her reverence doesn't seem to be the sort that I would expect for the Dread Wolf (who is the subject of a tale Merrill relates to Hawke in one conversation). Rather, it seems as though Flemeth exists on the fringe somehow, close to the history of the elves - a powerful entity to be sure, but maybe not quite a recognizable god.

I'm just not sure I'm ready to cling to one conclusion just yet. I might be proven wrong, and maybe she is the great trickster, but I'm enjoying the continual speculation.

[Kenshen]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Also did you guys already believe this idea before you read the post or was this something new that you were convinced by? (I looked for other Flemeth is.. threads but there were bunches and they were hard to sort through.)

Like all things I need proof before I will believe anything.  This theory seems to fit Flemeth best however I do believe there is a lot more to her than anyone knows...yet.

[atum]

Sandal's lines fit this too kinda.

[EricHVela]

I like the interpretation. I don't agree that it's true, but I would happily accept it if true.

I still subscribe to the idea that the Fade spirits/demons are from somewhere else, brought in by the Big Oops that started the whole Darkspawn mess, that the Black City is a breach in the Fade and there never was a Golden City -- only a Golden Light, and that the Isolation of the God(s) folklore in the Chant (by one method) and Elven lore (by another method) is just an interpretation of the change in the world from their primitive, unenlightened views to their more-modern awareness. (Ancient history sees the world more simply than they do in the present Thedas. Does that mean the world's actually different now or that they're simply more aware of it? How is best to explain the differences that they see now versus their ancestors?)

[brickheart]

If you played Legacy DLC (minor spoiler), it is looking more and more like "The Forgotten" have something to do with Imperial magisters. The magisters are probably the ones that woke up the Old Gods in the first place.

It seems to me that Flemeth was both part of this ritual that caused the first Blight and she is the descendant of a God (demi-god or half human half god) because she has dual human and dragon nature-- unlike the old Gods who seem restricted to a dragon form. If Flemeth is a demi-god, it might also explain why she needs an immortality ritual.

It should also be pointed out that the elves and the Chantry have major conflicting stories when it comes to the Fade and the Blights. The truth is probably a combination of both stories with other added details (like the ones discovered in Legacy DLC). So it would probably be a fools game to rely just on the elven stories.

I don't think this theory conflicts with yours because 'the Dread Wolf" was able to walk among The Forgotten and the Old Gods. It is an interesting thought--

[King Cousland]

I still subscribe to the theory that says Flemeth was Andraste (or, Andraste was Flemeth, whichever way you want to look at it). Of course, that doesn't rule out this theory or any others about her identity, but honestly? I just don't think we know nearly enough about her to make any solid guesses yet.

[JimmyTheProthean]

Flemeth the Irish version.Tricked many Irish kings and men into thinking she was a beautiful woman but in reality she was an old powerful hag who used them for power. Sound familiar?.

[hitorihanzo]

I do think that Flemeth is The Dread Wolf, however I disagree with the reasons why she is doing what she is doing. It is expressed far more eloquently than I could ever describe in the "The Real Reason Mages Are Dangerous" thread in this very forum (Last time I checked, it was still on pg. 1). *Read THE ENTIRE THREAD!* It's only 3 pages long, but contains some of the best theories I have ever read about what the old gods may be, what Flemeth may want, etc.

I will say though, that I hope the DA series doesn't boil down to "Elves are right/ Everyone else was wrong" kind of thing. That would be terribly clichéd.

[Xilizhra]

I will say though, that I hope the DA series doesn't boil down to "Elves are right/ Everyone else was wrong" kind of thing. That would be terribly clichéd.

Less cliched than humans being right?

[hitorihanzo]

Xilizhra wrote...

I will say though, that I hope the DA series doesn't boil down to "Elves are right/ Everyone else was wrong" kind of thing. That would be terribly clichéd.

Less cliched than humans being right?

Good point. 

Allow me to clarify. I would like the truth to be somewhere in the middle of what the Chantry teaches, and what the Elves believe. That's all. 

[Xilizhra]

Well, we know about the ur-darkspawn being magisters, so that's the Chantry part already finished. They don't need to be right about anything else.

[hitorihanzo]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we know about the ur-darkspawn being magisters, so that's the Chantry part already finished. They don't need to be right about anything else.

I appreciate your opinion, but respectfully disagree. I find the Chantry's version of the creation of the universe much more interesting than the Dalish version. That's not to say that I don't want Fen' Harel to play a large role, or for even parts of the Dalish lore to be true. I just think that there are too many interesting facets of Chantry tradition to be ignored in favor of Dalish lore, which I find... not as interesting.

[Xilizhra]

Er, why exactly?

[Renmiri1]

I suspect Flemeth is an Old God Baby from a previous Blight.. Someone made a Dark Ritual and Flemeth was born.. An Old God is a dragon and has powerful magic. OGBs are untainted and are born as humans...

The 4 Warden corpses at the GW fortress don't disprove this. One of them could have died murdered, not killed by the Archdemon spirit. Nothing prevented Morrigan from killing the Warden after she performed the Dark Ritual. And killing him would eliminate all sorts of unwanted attention and questions.

[hitorihanzo]

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, why exactly?

Because I find the heirarchy described by the Chantry more interesting than a pantheon. The theory I support coincides with the thread I specified above. There is a Maker, the Old God's are extremely powerful Abominations (based on cut passages from the Chant), etc.  The thread I suggested states it better than I can. I'm on an IPhone.

[Xilizhra]

hitorihanzo wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, why exactly?

Because I find the heirarchy described by the Chantry more interesting than a pantheon. The theory I support coincides with the thread I specified above. There is a Maker, the Old God's are extremely powerful Abominations (based on cut passages from the Chant), etc.  The thread I suggested states it better than I can. I'm on an IPhone.

I find anything that justifies the Chantry's incredible egotism like that to be disgusting. Though I find a lot of monotheisms problematic for exactly that reason; claims that all other gods are false. At least polytheistic religions through history have been willing to accept gods from each others' pantheons.

[Androme]

I suspect Flemeth is an Old God Baby from a previous Blight.. Someone made a Dark Ritual and Flemeth was born.. An Old God is a dragon and has powerful magic. OGBs are untainted and are born as humans... 

Very very interesting indeed, but lacks purpose.

Why would you do that? To what end? 

[Renmiri1]

Androme wrote...

I suspect Flemeth is an Old God Baby from a previous Blight.. Someone made a Dark Ritual and Flemeth was born.. An Old God is a dragon and has powerful magic. OGBs are untainted and are born as humans... 

Very very interesting indeed, but lacks purpose.

Why would you do that? To what end? 

Why did Morrigan and Flemeth wanted to do it ? Their stated reason was to "preserve" an Old God. Maybe someone else had the same idea 400 years ago ?

[hitorihanzo]

[/quote]
I find anything that justifies the Chantry's incredible egotism like that to be disgusting. Though I find a lot of monotheisms problematic for exactly that reason; claims that all other gods are false. At least polytheistic religions through history have been willing to accept gods from each others' pantheons.
[/quote]

Well of course they did. Polytheism, by it's very nature lends itself to being more accepting of additional pantheons. Monotheism doesn't have that kind of flexibility. However, I think intellectually objective then we have to realize that inflexibility does not equal wrong (as in wrong in a factual sense, not morally.)  BioWare has, so far, done a great job of presenting both The Chantry's mythology, and The Dalish lore, proving that each has some merit, without discounting the other in its entirety. That's better for the Dragon Age story, IMO.