189 réponses à ce sujet

[LucasShark]

As an experiment I just played the first 2 missions (more or less what anyone would call the "intro") to all 3 games back to back.  And I have to say this: while ME3's is the most... bleh: "cinematic", it is also the least involving, at least as an RPG.

In both ME1 and ME2, virtually every line of dialogue which came out of my Shepard's pie hole was determined by my input.  I determined if Shepard was a paragon of decencey, an aloof neutralist, or a galactic scaled dick, and I could have as much or as little exposition as I wanted.

Why was this?  Because nearly every line in conversation had all of these:
- Polite/paragon choice
- Neutral choice
- Hard-ass/renegade choice
- and of course investigate, which yielded anywhere from 2-5 options

And this didn't happen once a scene, oh no: it happened for nearly every line my Shepard spoke, I determined his/her persona, and how they treated their interactions with others.

To contrast with ME3: I think there was all of a dozen times when it actually asked me what Shepard was going to say.  And even when it did, there were only ever 2 options: those being "do you want to be a nice person" or "do you want to be a dick"  This is like saying Fable has a meaningful moral choice system: do you want to be Gahndi or Adolf Hitler?
For every line I defined, Shepard spouted another 4 that I didn't. 

Right along with this comes linierity: Yes the missions of ME1 and ME2 were structurally linier, but in ME1 even before I'd even achieved spectre status, there were over a half-dozen side-stories and minor interactions I could take part in.  Even in ME2 this was present: do you pick up everything?  Or rush through?  Do you work for cerberus?  Or defy them?  Do you say hello to your crew or not?

Meanwhile, the first actually optional thing which ever happens in ME3 besides picking up items is whether or not you visit your wounded squad mate in hospital, and even then: it's not as if it lets you go anywhere else!

Personally I blame this on "shooter mode", in which a single chain of dialogue is put forth, and then all else is just tacked on it seems. 

Some might say this is something minor to complain about, but I disagree.  It's the difference in our relationship to our player character which matters.  In ME1 and ME2, we ARE shepard, in ME3, we are piloting A shepard by remote control now and then.

Modifié par LucasShark, 15 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[LucasShark]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

And even when it did, there were only ever 2 options: those being "do you want to be a nice person" or "do you want to be the greatest d-bag to ever walk the soils of this galaxy"

This in an incredibly inaccurate statement (your description of Paragon and Renegade, that is, not the "only two options" thing, which is unfortunately true).

Yeah I was being intensionally hyperbolic there: but really it is "nice" or "not nice" there is no "reasonable" anymore.

[LucasShark]

*edited somewhat.

[yukon fire]

It's like they were paying the va's by the line. So any excuse to remove more work for them was justifiable, quality of the game and of the series itself be damned. That's not stupidity on bioware's part, it's evil.

[essarr71]

auto-dialogue has nothing to do with half of your points.

[LucasShark]

yukon fire wrote...

It's like they were paying the va's by the line. So any excuse to remove more work for them was justifiable, quality of the game and of the series itself be damned. That's not stupidity on bioware's part, it's evil.

Almost seems that way: to illustrate I did read something about the ME3 intro that shows just how cheap they were with VA pay.  At one point you witness the destruction of "an alliance dreadnought", only the model used and the perspective shown clearly indicates it is in-fact a cruiser, rather than have 2 voice actors back for 1 line each, they just left the error in.

[LucasShark]

essarr71 wrote...

auto-dialogue has nothing to do with half of your points.

How so?  the linierity segment is tangencial, but the rest is focussed on thee dialogue system.  Whether you think so or not that effects the player's relationship to the player character, and how much interactivity the game universe has.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I agree people should stop complaining about auto-dialogue in a game that has so many other bigger problems.

[LucasShark]

DinoSteve wrote...

I agree people should stop complaining about auto-dialogue in a game that has so many other bigger problems.

I'll admit: the game has A LOT of other problems, but this IS a big one: it has fundamentally changed the game from RPG, to shooter with RPG tassles.

[WindfishDude]

I agree. The dialogue wheel of ME1 is one of the best things I've come across in a modern RPG and even though I had my issues with ME2's action-focused/corridor shooty build-up, the game still had an incredibly rich dialogue wheel, that surpassed it's predecessor and it introduced Interrupts into the mix. It was a game saver for me, and it's prolly the biggest reason why I managed to love ME2 as much as I did(do).

ME3 took all that away. Even the interrupts where played down. They had the gall to promise new things with this feature, with James Vega sparring, but like almost everything in ME3, it went nowhere.

The measly dialogue wheel, combined with rampant auto-dialogue makes me shake my head in disbelief at ME3.
The worst thing is, while Shepard is on auto-speak, you can still hear weird transitions, where a dialogue option would've fit in. It feels like a cut-up and reassembled dialogue system.

[hoodaticus]

WindfishDude wrote...

The worst thing is, while Shepard is on auto-speak, you can still hear weird transitions, where a dialogue option would've fit in. It feels like a cut-up and reassembled dialogue system.

You just cursed me.  Next time I play ME3, I'm gonna notice that and curse your name for breaking my immersion.

[LucasShark]

WindfishDude wrote...

I agree. The dialogue wheel of ME1 is one of the best things I've come across in a modern RPG and even though I had my issues with ME2's action-focused/corridor shooty build-up, the game still had an incredibly rich dialogue wheel, that surpassed it's predecessor and it introduced Interrupts into the mix. It was a game saver for me, and it's prolly the biggest reason why I managed to love ME2 as much as I did(do).

ME3 took all that away. Even the interrupts where played down. They had the gall to promise new things with this feature, with James Vega sparring, but like almost everything in ME3, it went nowhere.

The measly dialogue wheel, combined with rampant auto-dialogue makes me shake my head in disbelief at ME3.
The worst thing is, while Shepard is on auto-speak, you can still hear weird transitions, where a dialogue option would've fit in. It feels like a cut-up and reassembled dialogue system.

The reason it feels cut-up is because it honestly is: it still has to be sliced up into audio-bites and synced to animations dependant on what shepard you are leaning for (nice or dick).

ANd yeah on the subject of interupts: it's funny how all the renegade ones in ME3's intro involve punching people.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Is it strange that I prefer the way Dragon Age origins implemented the dialogue, than the Boware dialogue wheel?

[LucasShark]

DinoSteve wrote...

Is it strange that I prefer the way Dragon Age origins implemented the dialogue, than the Boware dialogue wheel?

I'd rather have the KOTOR one back honestly.

[JesseLee202]

LucasShark wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Is it strange that I prefer the way Dragon Age origins implemented the dialogue, than the Boware dialogue wheel?

I'd rather have the KOTOR one back honestly.

Origins and KOTOR have pretty much the same dialogue setup if I'm not mistaken 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

LucasShark wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Is it strange that I prefer the way Dragon Age origins implemented the dialogue, than the Boware dialogue wheel?

I'd rather have the KOTOR one back honestly.

Can't remember what it was like, *runs to youtube


Edit:  Ah! yes I remember now, it was much the same as Origins.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 15 août 2012 - 12:57 .

[yukon fire]

The dialogue system was the heart of the mass effect series.
When they removed it the series died. After that it became easier to hack more bits off it, what would a dead body need a nose or a thumb for?

Sadly into this dead, with missing bits, body we were thrown, and when we complained about it they blamed us.

Modifié par yukon fire, 15 août 2012 - 03:47 .

[WindfishDude]

DinoSteve wrote...

Is it strange that I prefer the way Dragon Age origins implemented the dialogue, than the Boware dialogue wheel?

I'm an old rpg player, so I grew up with that kind of list dialogue system. Having a list of dialogue options It will always win in sheer quantity and by that extention, roleplaying. However, if you want an actual voice for your main character, that is a bit too much to handle for a poor voice actor.

But ME's dialogue wheel really streamlined the whole thing and cooked responses down to 3 choices while still trying to allow for basic character allignment roleplaying.
When I first saw it in ME1, I thought it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. It was way more basic than any previous WRPG's interaction systems but hearing your character speak his/her own lines was worth it.
Even back then, Bioware didn't try to hide that Shepard was a more 'defined' character than what the RPG crowd was used to. You couldn't go full dark side or roleplay as an insane person etc. That was the sacrifice for having a talking main character. You were pretty much locked into the role of Commander Shepard.

What ME3 did with the system though... it was not right, and it goes against the principles that founded the dialogue wheel to begin with.
In ME1 and 2 there was a respect for the way people wanted to play their character inside the 'Shepard Personality Box'.
Compared to other rpg's it was very limited, but Bioware did their best to try and let players have as much control as possible inside the confines of the Shep Box.

In ME3, there is an almost arrogant attitude towards their handling of Shepard. The confined freedom from the previous games was narrowed further down, so we're left with 2 Shepards who sound very, very alike. It rather feels like 1 Shepard. And I ask you all, what is the point then? 

Modifié par WindfishDude, 15 août 2012 - 01:04 .

[djspectre]

My issue was when you compared ME3 to the previous two games.

In ME1 & 2each NPC would make a statement or complete the thought they had and then stop, which then presented you with the dialogue wheel. Nearly every time the camera cut back to Shepard, it was because a dialogue choice was to be made. (except during in-game cinematics)

In ME3, NPC's will have extended or multiple thoughts expressed with either generic (mmhmm, okay or yeah's) responses from Shepard automatically or will have him say something instantly without a dialogue wheel being presented....which is a deviation from the first two games.

Further there was an issue during the early missions that there was no neutral option and the two remaining options were basically identical sounding when picked. And most options during those times of choice, didn't include much 'investigation' options (left hand of the wheel). Later missions didn't suffer from this as much, but it was enough that the first hour or two did this and ruined the opening.

It gave the game the sense of having auto-dialogue and blandness.

(there was also a few people who didn't realize they had the dialogue setting set to 'action mode' which auto-picked your response, but that is not directly related to the OP's post. )

Modifié par djspectre, 15 août 2012 - 01:08 .

[Ticonderoga117]

inb4
"But it makes it more natural!"
"You don't need to choose every line!"
"It's boring!"
"I didn't mind it!"

[LucasShark]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

inb4
"But it makes it more natural!"
"You don't need to choose every line!"
"It's boring!"
"I didn't mind it!"

Ah yes the "I bought an RPG but don't want to play through an RPG" arguments...

[o Ventus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

inb4
"But it makes it more natural!"
"You don't need to choose every line!"
"It's boring!"
"I didn't mind it!"

Also "dialogue in ME1+2 was the same regardless of choice!" and "Shepard isn't 100% malleable as a character!"

[djspectre]

WindfishDude wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Is it strange that I prefer the way Dragon Age origins implemented the dialogue, than the Boware dialogue wheel?

I'm an old rpg player, so I grew up with that kind of list dialogue system. Having a list of dialogue options It will always win in sheer quantity and by that extention, roleplaying. However, if you want an actual voice for your main character, that is a bit too much to handle for a poor voice actor.

But ME's dialogue wheel really streamlined the whole thing and cooked responses down to 3 choices while still trying to allow for basic character allignment roleplaying.
When I first saw it in ME1, I thought it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. It was way more basic than any previous WRPG's interaction systems but hearing your character speak his/her own lines was worth it.
Even back then, Bioware didn't try to hide that Shepard was a more 'defined' character than what the RPG crowd was used to. You couldn't go full dark side or roleplay as an insane person etc. That was the sacrifice for having a talking main character. You were pretty much locked into the role of Commander Shepard.

What ME3 did with the system though... it was not right, and it goes against the principles that founded the dialogue wheel to begin with.
In ME1 and 2 there was a respect for the way people wanted to play their character inside the 'Shepard Personality Box'.
Compared to other rpg's it was very limited, but Bioware did their best to try and let players have as much control as possible inside the confines of the Shep Box.

In ME3, there is an almost arrogant attitude towards their handling of Shepard. The confined freedom from the previous games was narrowed further down, so we're left with 2 Shepards who sound very, very alike. It rather feels like 1 Shepard. And I ask you all, what is the point then? 

Ah, you basically said what I said in my post below the above quote. 

I 100% agree. They limited your investigative abilities, made the paragon and renegade options (in a lot of places) similar sounding and in their attempt to streamline and make everything 'more natural' made the line between paragon and renegade blurry. Sometimes the 'paragon' option was on the bottom right where the renegade option was in the previous two games. 

There were times when a character would say something and my renegade shepard would want to lash out at him and the 'renegade' bottom-right option was this soft paragon-like politically-correct nonsense!

And lets not forget the always awkward placement of the paragon and renegade interupts in ME3. In ME2 they were perfectly placed and always made sense. But the fact that there are FOUR IMMEDIATELY CONSECUTIVE renegade interupts for shooting Legion to death, is absurd. 

Lastly, the opportunity for paragon and renegade choices (blue and red left-wheel options) were much sparser than the other two and, in most cases, didn't always gaurantee a successful win (again, unlike the previous two games)! Instead your red and blue options were based on some undefined % chance based partially on what % of your reputation bar was renegade or paragon. Why even make the Red or Blue option available if it has no effect on the outcome? Sometimes the Red/Blue left-wheel options are entirely omitted from the wheel, not just greyed out and unavilable like ME1 & 2. At least if they were greyed out, you at least knew you missed out on something and could replay the game and have a new experience, ME3 just pretended like they weren't there, leaving you to guess if you missed out on something (this happened to lots of people during the final moments of the Rannoch missions when you have to choose between Tali and Legion)

Modifié par djspectre, 15 août 2012 - 01:20 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

LucasShark wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

inb4
"But it makes it more natural!"
"You don't need to choose every line!"
"It's boring!"
"I didn't mind it!"

Ah yes the "I bought an RPG but don't want to play through an RPG" arguments...

I miss playing RPG's made by Bioware.