189 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainne Chapel]

what was there to investigate in ME3 with companions that most have been with you 2-3 games at this point?

Sure there werent as many investigate options, but if you look at the actual dialogue spoken, you'll see there's actually MORE crewmate dialogue than ME2.

You have to remember in ME3 they comment on each mission, in ME2 they had 2 or 3 specific convos that kept repeating

[MerchantGOL]

u investigate JAmes , Edi and JAvik as much as any character from me2 

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 23 août 2012 - 11:25 .

[chemiclord]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

what was there to investigate in ME3 with companions that most have been with you 2-3 games at this point?

Sure there werent as many investigate options, but if you look at the actual dialogue spoken, you'll see there's actually MORE crewmate dialogue than ME2.

You have to remember in ME3 they comment on each mission, in ME2 they had 2 or 3 specific convos that kept repeating

It's because people prefer to be ENGAGING the discussion, not listening in.  They want to be ACTIVE, rathan than a fly on the wall.

They want to be the center of the action, everything happening through them, rather than just being one person among many.  The ambient discussion isn't something that interested them all that much.

Me?  I personally LIKED that the Normandy had a feel of things going on when Shepard wasn't right there.  I liked that characters moved around rather than always "calibrating."  If that meant cutting out some of the meaningless choices that were to be had in ME1, I'm okay with that trade.

Clearly, others weren't.

Modifié par chemiclord, 23 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[Cainne Chapel]

I agree chemi, to me it went a long way in making them feel alive and not just there at Sheps beck and call.

Almost kind of wish it was there from the outset because it definately made them and by extension the ship, feel more lively

[robertm2]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

How so robert? Not only did DA2 give you a plethora of options, it had the meaning behind said options when chosen.

Also robert our individual purchases mean little, now if you can get a BUNCH of people to not buy it, then yeah.

da2 did ok for dialogue but they dropped the ball on almost everything else. the best part of origins was talking to your companions for hours on end to the point that you actually cared about them. it got to the point where i would play the game according to the reactions i would get from them. in da2 you get to talk to them once per act and by the end of it i didnt care about them because i knew so little about them. not to mention the entire game took place in one city along with a few side areas that look boring and bland. and i realize that my individual purchase does not hurt bioware but im not going to threaten them or campaign against them. im simply stating what i will do with my money and what it will take for them to earn my money.

[Cainne Chapel]

the thing is though there were still active discussions with most members, but just like with ME2, after that initial talk, most of it was just listening in.

With ME2 the situation was talk to the crewmate, no new info afterwards until LM, then one more convo, then its basically rinse and repeat

I liked the fact that with ME3 you get that initial talk and then afterwards they kind of do their own thing and move around the ship and actually have some pretty entertaining discussions and insights

[JamieCOTC]

If a game has a character that is completely predefined, (Witcher, Deus EX, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, etc, etc) then I expect auto-dialogue. Shepard is and always has been a hybrid of predefined and player controlled character and they did need to tighten the dialogue a bit.  But just as w/ the RPG mechanics in ME2, they cut way too deep w/ the dialogue choices. Tone was completely thrown out the window even when there was a choice.  I asked Patrick Weekes about the auto-dialog and he said that it was done partly to do so many scenes, but also to give a more natural flow. The flow is nice, but it comes at the cost of player control. Shepard is not Nathan Drake or  Geralt the Witcher. Shepard is whoever the player wishes him or her to be.

[Cainne Chapel]

I see your point Robert and that is true.

honestly though there werent many characters in DA or DA2 I cared much about, not near as much as the ME cast in any case.

I do have a soft spot for leiliana though.

[MerchantGOL]

JamieCOTC wrote...

If a game has a character that is completely predefined, (Witcher, Deus EX, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, etc, etc) then I expect auto-dialogue. Shepard is and always has been a hybrid of predefined and player controlled character and they did need to tighten the dialogue a bit.  But just as w/ the RPG mechanics in ME2, they cut way too deep w/ the dialogue choices. Tone was completely thrown out the window even when there was a choice.  I asked Patrick Weekes about the auto-dialog and he said that it was done partly to do so many scenes, but also to give a more natural flow. The flow is nice, but it comes at the cost of player control. Shepard is not Nathan Drake or  Geralt the Witcher. Shepard is whoever the player wishes him or her to be.

but auto dialouge didn't change that

I still have shepard The Paragon "No one dies" on my watch boy scout with a temper as well as The Rengade "F you  i wont do what you tell me" thug.

[chemiclord]

MerchantGOL wrote...
but auto dialouge didn't change that

I still have shepard The Paragon "No one dies" on my watch boy scout with a temper as well as The Rengade "F you  i wont do what you tell me" thug.

You're missing a lot of their point.

ME 1 and 2 gave you "neutral" options that gave the illusion that you didn't have to choose one extreme or the other.  Yes, the truth is that it WAS just an illusion, and that the conversion bottlenecked into one of two distinct paths anything.  But some people embrace that illusion, even if they know that's all it is.

[paul165]

Not that it really matters as Weekes has already said they are going to continue with autodialogue.

Joy /sarcasm.

@Merchant and then you play and realise that in ME3 they are exactly the same person saying the same things, feeling the same things and being the exact same total moron regardless of how you attempt to play the character:

Want to be anti Alliance? good luck with that.
Hate the Council? Not anymore you don't
Want to abandon the Quarians to the consequences of their stupidity? Apparently not
Don't trust Anderson and want to know why he isn't doing his damn job on the Citadel? Nope he's your best bud/father figure and can do no wrong

Etc. etc ad nauseum. I could go on but will leave with this point.

Playthroughs of ME1 6
Playthroughs of ME2 8 all dlc purchased
Playthroughs of ME3 2 pre/post EC dlc planned to purchased:- none.

And the autodialogue eliminating replay value is a major factor in that.

[megamacka]

I wonder where the developer teams passion went..... ME1 and 2 was epic all the way through and then ME3 became a rollercoaster... GREAT.... bad.... GREAT.... bad.... AMAZING... bad...bad... omg...wtf... who the ****, wait! Let me choose what to say! WHO THE **** IS JAMES VEGA... WHO IS DIANA ALLERS!?!?!?! WHO IS KAI LENG!?!?!? OMG.....Wait, why are you leaving vendetta at the cerberus base!? ARE YOU SENILE SHEPARD!? Vendetta said he would upload himself into the crucible why are you letting him blow up!? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[MerchantGOL]

paul165 wrote...


Joy /sarcasm.

@Merchant and then you play and realise that in ME3 they are exactly the same person saying the same things, feeling the same things and being the exact same total moron regardless of how you attempt to play the character:

except it isn't

Want to be anti Alliance? good luck with that.

I can be the same  rotten bastard in that regard as  i always can


Hate the Council? Not anymore you don't

yeah no i can stillg ive them **** for not listening.


Want to abandon the Quarians to the consequences of their stupidity? Apparently not
you can let the get win, unless your cocmplaing you have to do that mission in which cause, deal with it, you are given no reason not to.

Don't trust Anderson and want to know why he isn't doing his damn job on the Citadel? Nope he's your best bud/father figure and can do no wrong

you could never not trust anderson, in the previous games buddy, he has always been your father figure character.

[Big I]

With regards to ME3 dialogue, I didn't really miss the neutral option in conversation. From ME2 onwards every conversation was a case of farming either renegade or paragon points in order to make your persuasion checks later in the game, to the extent that I only chose the neutral option a very few times. Even in ME1 where I would happily choose any of the three options I mostly stuck with predominately renegade or paragon choices.

[paul165]

Want to be anti Alliance? good luck with that.

I can be the same rotten bastard in that regard as i always can

>>Really show me any anti Alliance dialogue in the game please (apart from the commitee line). And anti Alliance =/= rotten anyway<<

Hate the Council? Not anymore you don't

yeah no i can stillg ive them **** for not listening.

>>you get one whingy comment at the Turian councillor who tells you to grow up and then you go back to being a good little drone in the autodialogue<<

Want to abandon the Quarians to the consequences of their stupidity? Apparently not
you can let the get win, unless your cocmplaing you have to do that mission in which cause, deal with it, you are given no reason not to.

>>there is no meaningful reason that series is part of the "main" quest line and the autodialogue forces you to be all sympathatic to the morons. Remember the complaint is about dialogue <<

Don't trust Anderson and want to know why he isn't doing his damn job on the Citadel? Nope he's your best bud/father figure and can do no wrong

you could never not trust anderson, in the previous games buddy, he has always been your father figure character.

>>except in ME1 when you could agree with Saren and send him off to get to get shot or ME2 when you can disagree with him and yell at him for keeping secrets. Yeah... always been your father figure.<<

Not that it really matters Bioware have decided autodialogue is the way forward so the arguments on here about it are even more irrelevant than than the ending analysis work people did.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

I won't say the complaining about the auto-dialouge is unjustified but I wasn't really too bothered by it. I was still able to select the dialouge when it mattered most.

[Peranor]

Auto-dialogue can be useful to steer the story in the right direction. I don't mind it if it's used sparsely. But it was kind of overused in ME3.

[wright1978]

paul165 wrote...


Want to be anti Alliance? good luck with that.

I can be the same rotten bastard in that regard as i always can

>>Really show me any anti Alliance dialogue in the game please (apart from the commitee line). And anti Alliance =/= rotten anyway<<

Hate the Council? Not anymore you don't

yeah no i can stillg ive them **** for not listening.

>>you get one whingy comment at the Turian councillor who tells you to grow up and then you go back to being a good little drone in the autodialogue<<

Want to abandon the Quarians to the consequences of their stupidity? Apparently not
you can let the get win, unless your cocmplaing you have to do that mission in which cause, deal with it, you are given no reason not to.

>>there is no meaningful reason that series is part of the "main" quest line and the autodialogue forces you to be all sympathatic to the morons. Remember the complaint is about dialogue <<

Don't trust Anderson and want to know why he isn't doing his damn job on the Citadel? Nope he's your best bud/father figure and can do no wrong

you could never not trust anderson, in the previous games buddy, he has always been your father figure character.

>>except in ME1 when you could agree with Saren and send him off to get to get shot or ME2 when you can disagree with him and yell at him for keeping secrets. Yeah... always been your father figure.<<

Not that it really matters Bioware have decided autodialogue is the way forward so the arguments on here about it are even more irrelevant than than the ending analysis work people did.

Agree completely. I found it unbelievable how radically they butchered player characterisation of the previous games via a deluge of auto-dialogued characterisation. It was utterly horrible. Very worried this is the future, dark days if it is.

Modifié par wright1978, 24 août 2012 - 11:49 .

[Batnat]

wright1978 wrote...

paul165 wrote...


Want to be anti Alliance? good luck with that.

I can be the same rotten bastard in that regard as i always can

>>Really show me any anti Alliance dialogue in the game please (apart from the commitee line). And anti Alliance =/= rotten anyway<<

Hate the Council? Not anymore you don't

yeah no i can stillg ive them **** for not listening.

>>you get one whingy comment at the Turian councillor who tells you to grow up and then you go back to being a good little drone in the autodialogue<<

Want to abandon the Quarians to the consequences of their stupidity? Apparently not
you can let the get win, unless your cocmplaing you have to do that mission in which cause, deal with it, you are given no reason not to.

>>there is no meaningful reason that series is part of the "main" quest line and the autodialogue forces you to be all sympathatic to the morons. Remember the complaint is about dialogue <<

Don't trust Anderson and want to know why he isn't doing his damn job on the Citadel? Nope he's your best bud/father figure and can do no wrong

you could never not trust anderson, in the previous games buddy, he has always been your father figure character.

>>except in ME1 when you could agree with Saren and send him off to get to get shot or ME2 when you can disagree with him and yell at him for keeping secrets. Yeah... always been your father figure.<<

Not that it really matters Bioware have decided autodialogue is the way forward so the arguments on here about it are even more irrelevant than than the ending analysis work people did.

Agree completely. I found it unbelievable how radically they butchered player characterisation of the previous games via a deluge of auto-dialogued characterisation. It was utterly horrible. Very worried this is the future, dark days if it is.

My thoughts exactly. 

[LinksOcarina]

chemiclord wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
but auto dialouge didn't change that

I still have shepard The Paragon "No one dies" on my watch boy scout with a temper as well as The Rengade "F you  i wont do what you tell me" thug.

You're missing a lot of their point.

ME 1 and 2 gave you "neutral" options that gave the illusion that you didn't have to choose one extreme or the other.  Yes, the truth is that it WAS just an illusion, and that the conversion bottlenecked into one of two distinct paths anything.  But some people embrace that illusion, even if they know that's all it is.

But the caveat of that then means Mass Effect is poorly designed in terms of character interaction, since neutral options get you nowhere in the game, unlike say Dragon Age or The Witcher, where they do lead to some unique situations overall.

Even if its an illusion, its a thinly veiled one and people I feel overreacted to the auto-dialogue issue, which frankly made a lot of exposition scenes not only more bearable, but dynamic. It finally got that cinematic feel that people were wow-ed about in Mass Effect 1, and honestly, if it meant breaking that illusion that I knew was bogus to begin with, so be it.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but that is how Shepard was designed; hes basically a hybrid of Geralt and Link and other controlled characters, we just push Shepard in the direction we think is best and try to fill in the gaps. In the end though, Shepard will still fight reapers, survive a suicide mission and make a choice in the end that will lead to a heroic sacrifice. 

[Grizzly46]

Autodialogue is fine when there is essentially no path to choose; autodialogue when there is, is very bad for the immersion which I guess is why most people play this kind of game. This is especially aggravating when you paint up a mental picture of your PC, and it wont respond or act as you want to. If my Shepard hates synthetics, should he blurt out a line like "the geth are better than this!"? No, apparently everything the geth has done has apparently opened my Sheps eyes to the errors of his views. Cool, why didnt anyone tell me?

I had the same problem with The Witcher when he started asking for money for removing the monster problems, but a lot less so, since I knew I was playing the role of Geralt the Witcher, full stop. I had very little to manuver on from the start, and that was ok, since it was established from the start who I was (playing) and how he worked and what made him tick.
With Shepard it was established early on that the room to manouver was a lot bigger - female Shep? Ok. Bald female Shep who is suspicious of nonhumans? Also ok.
But in the third installment this was taken away, and O really dont appreciate that. Had it been like this from the beginning, then I could have lived with it, but after three (actually two) games, i felt like i owned my Shepard, having molded him into my creation. That was taken away in the third game.

Thanks a bunch Bioware.

[Headcount]

LinksOcarina wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
but auto dialouge didn't change that

I still have shepard The Paragon "No one dies" on my watch boy scout with a temper as well as The Rengade "F you  i wont do what you tell me" thug.

You're missing a lot of their point.

ME 1 and 2 gave you "neutral" options that gave the illusion that you didn't have to choose one extreme or the other.  Yes, the truth is that it WAS just an illusion, and that the conversion bottlenecked into one of two distinct paths anything.  But some people embrace that illusion, even if they know that's all it is.

But the caveat of that then means Mass Effect is poorly designed in terms of character interaction, since neutral options get you nowhere in the game, unlike say Dragon Age or The Witcher, where they do lead to some unique situations overall.

Even if its an illusion, its a thinly veiled one and people I feel overreacted to the auto-dialogue issue, which frankly made a lot of exposition scenes not only more bearable, but dynamic. It finally got that cinematic feel that people were wow-ed about in Mass Effect 1, and honestly, if it meant breaking that illusion that I knew was bogus to begin with, so be it.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but that is how Shepard was designed; hes basically a hybrid of Geralt and Link and other controlled characters, we just push Shepard in the direction we think is best and try to fill in the gaps. In the end though, Shepard will still fight reapers, survive a suicide mission and make a choice in the end that will lead to a heroic sacrifice. 

If its all just an illusion, then lets throw away the dialogue wheel now and just turn ME into a rail shooter, that's where we're heading anyway.  I enjoyed ME1 and ME2 because I felt I had control, real or not.  The heavy use of auto-dialogue may have helped the game flow better but it was a corner cutting measure like recycling dungeon maps in DA2 to get the game out as fast as possible.  It does nothing for people who actually enjoy RPG games that BW once made.

Also, the ending to ME3 may have been a heroic sarcrifice in your mind but to me its still a crappy ending thrown together at the last second because BW ran out of time and the writer got too clever for his own good. 

Modifié par Headcount, 24 août 2012 - 02:57 .

[LinksOcarina]

Headcount wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
but auto dialouge didn't change that

I still have shepard The Paragon "No one dies" on my watch boy scout with a temper as well as The Rengade "F you  i wont do what you tell me" thug.

You're missing a lot of their point.

ME 1 and 2 gave you "neutral" options that gave the illusion that you didn't have to choose one extreme or the other.  Yes, the truth is that it WAS just an illusion, and that the conversion bottlenecked into one of two distinct paths anything.  But some people embrace that illusion, even if they know that's all it is.

But the caveat of that then means Mass Effect is poorly designed in terms of character interaction, since neutral options get you nowhere in the game, unlike say Dragon Age or The Witcher, where they do lead to some unique situations overall.

Even if its an illusion, its a thinly veiled one and people I feel overreacted to the auto-dialogue issue, which frankly made a lot of exposition scenes not only more bearable, but dynamic. It finally got that cinematic feel that people were wow-ed about in Mass Effect 1, and honestly, if it meant breaking that illusion that I knew was bogus to begin with, so be it.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but that is how Shepard was designed; hes basically a hybrid of Geralt and Link and other controlled characters, we just push Shepard in the direction we think is best and try to fill in the gaps. In the end though, Shepard will still fight reapers, survive a suicide mission and make a choice in the end that will lead to a heroic sacrifice. 

If its all just an illusion, then lets throw away the dialogue wheel now and just turn ME into a rail shooter, that's where we're heading anyway.  I enjoyed ME1 and ME2 because I felt I had control, real or not.  The heavy use of auto-dialogue may have helped the game flow better but it was a corner cutting measure like recycling dungeon maps in DA2 to get the game out as fast as possible.  It does nothing for people who actually enjoy RPG games that BW once made.

Also, the ending to ME3 may have been a heroic sarcrifice in your mind but to me its still a crappy ending thrown together at the last second because BW ran out of time and the writer got too clever for his own good. 

funny, Mass Effect 3 is the best RPG to come out this year thus far...and one of BioWares better games.

I guess I am biased or something. 

[wright1978]

Headcount wrote...

If its all just an illusion, then lets throw away the dialogue wheel now and just turn ME into a rail shooter, that's where we're heading anyway.  I enjoyed ME1 and ME2 because I felt I had control, real or not.  The heavy use of auto-dialogue may have helped the game flow better but it was a corner cutting measure like recycling dungeon maps in DA2 to get the game out as fast as possible.  It does nothing for people who actually enjoy RPG games that BW once made.

Also, the ending to ME3 may have been a heroic sarcrifice in your mind but to me its still a crappy ending thrown together at the last second because BW ran out of time and the writer got too clever for his own good. 

Yes i love how they trot that flowing scenes BS out but i don't notice them cutting the manual combat sequences by half to make way for flowing combat sequences. Why should being able to control the characterising auto-dialogue be any different? Flowing cutscenes should be the servant of player characterisation not the other way round.

Agree completely about ending too.