o Ventus wrote...
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
inb4
"But it makes it more natural!"
"You don't need to choose every line!"
"It's boring!"
"I didn't mind it!"
Also "dialogue in ME1+2 was the same regardless of choice!" and "Shepard isn't 100% malleable as a character!"
CronoDragoon wrote...
o Ventus wrote...
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
inb4
"But it makes it more natural!"
"You don't need to choose every line!"
"It's boring!"
"I didn't mind it!"
Also "dialogue in ME1+2 was the same regardless of choice!" and "Shepard isn't 100% malleable as a character!"
Putting ib4 in front of valid responses doesn't invalidate them. It just means you already know a bunch of valid responses.
IanPolaris wrote...
My opinion: The person that thought that autodialog was a good idea (or had ANY place) in an RPG (other than very limited scenes), needs to be covered in honey and then buried up to their neck near a nest of ants.....fire ants.
-Polaris
MegaSovereign wrote...
Also the reputation system is better than the old exclusively Paragon/Renegade system.
Modifié par tonnactus, 24 août 2012 - 09:02 .
JamesFaith wrote...
It always depends on specific game. For example Gothic had a lot of autodialog and still it is great RPG.
tonnactus wrote...
MegaSovereign wrote...
Also the reputation system is better than the old exclusively Paragon/Renegade system.
Of course it is. While i prefer dialogue skills like in the first game, at least i am not forced to be 100 percent paragon or renegade like in Mass Effect 2 to get all options.
in Mass Effect 2, players who developed a commander that was half
Renegade and half Paragon weren’t able to unlock many dialogue options.
http://press2reset.c...-mass-effect-3/
Its quite funny: Mass Effect 3 offers more freedom to roleplay Shepard, not less.
And by the way: Rpg isnt limited to what the character says and does, but also how he fights.
Mass Effect 3: More skills, and more branches to develop them.
wright1978 wrote...
. At least in ME2 i at least got to select dialogue choice even if it had a non ideal reputation system where there were some paragon/renegade convo options that had minimum requirements to activate.
Modifié par tonnactus, 24 août 2012 - 10:09 .
tonnactus wrote...
wright1978 wrote...
. At least in ME2 i at least got to select dialogue choice even if it had a non ideal reputation system where there were some paragon/renegade convo options that had minimum requirements to activate.
Try Mass Effect 2 without an import, dont be straight renegade or paragon,and tell me if you were able to choose Morinth over Samara.(or even able to resist the hypnose)
Or resolving the Tali Legion conflict without lossing the loaylity of one of them.
Then come back and tell me what freedom Mass Effect 2 offered when it came to not only to dialogue choices,but choices overall(where was the option to save Nassana Dantius?).
Hell,this game not even offered a sole survivor an option to confront the illusive man about what his organisation did to his squad.
WindfishDude wrote...
I agree. The dialogue wheel of ME1 is one of the best things I've come across in a modern RPG and even though I had my issues with ME2's action-focused/corridor shooty build-up, the game still had an incredibly rich dialogue wheel, that surpassed it's predecessor and it introduced Interrupts into the mix. It was a game saver for me, and it's prolly the biggest reason why I managed to love ME2 as much as I did(do).
ME3 took all that away. Even the interrupts where played down. They had the gall to promise new things with this feature, with James Vega sparring, but like almost everything in ME3, it went nowhere.
The measly dialogue wheel, combined with rampant auto-dialogue makes me shake my head in disbelief at ME3.
The worst thing is, while Shepard is on auto-speak, you can still hear weird transitions, where a dialogue option would've fit in. It feels like a cut-up and reassembled dialogue system.
JamesFaith wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
My opinion: The person that thought that autodialog was a good idea (or had ANY place) in an RPG (other than very limited scenes), needs to be covered in honey and then buried up to their neck near a nest of ants.....fire ants.
-Polaris
It always depends on specific game. For example Gothic had a lot of autodialog and still it is great RPG.
wright1978 wrote...
tonnactus wrote...
MegaSovereign wrote...
Also the reputation system is better than the old exclusively Paragon/Renegade system.
Of course it is. While i prefer dialogue skills like in the first game, at least i am not forced to be 100 percent paragon or renegade like in Mass Effect 2 to get all options.
in Mass Effect 2, players who developed a commander that was half
Renegade and half Paragon weren’t able to unlock many dialogue options.
http://press2reset.c...-mass-effect-3/
Its quite funny: Mass Effect 3 offers more freedom to roleplay Shepard, not less.
And by the way: Rpg isnt limited to what the character says and does, but also how he fights.
Mass Effect 3: More skills, and more branches to develop them.
There's no point in the tinkering they did to the reputation system because they removed out the neutral options and gutted the dialogue system, replacing it with auto-dialogue. At least in ME2 i at least got to select dialogue choice even if it had a non ideal reputation system where there were some paragon/renegade convo options that had minimum requirements to activate.
IanPolaris wrote...
JamesFaith wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
My opinion: The person that thought that autodialog was a good idea (or had ANY place) in an RPG (other than very limited scenes), needs to be covered in honey and then buried up to their neck near a nest of ants.....fire ants.
-Polaris
It always depends on specific game. For example Gothic had a lot of autodialog and still it is great RPG.
I simply can't agree with this. If I wanted to watch a film, I'd watch a film. When I want to play an RPG, I want to play an ROLE-playing game and that means I make my own dialog decisions. It's that fundamental.
-Polaris
IanPolaris wrote...
JamesFaith wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
My opinion: The person that thought that autodialog was a good idea (or had ANY place) in an RPG (other than very limited scenes), needs to be covered in honey and then buried up to their neck near a nest of ants.....fire ants.
-Polaris
It always depends on specific game. For example Gothic had a lot of autodialog and still it is great RPG.
I simply can't agree with this. If I wanted to watch a film, I'd watch a film. When I want to play an RPG, I want to play an ROLE-playing game and that means I make my own dialog decisions. It's that fundamental.
-Polaris
Modifié par LinksOcarina, 25 août 2012 - 02:41 .
IanPolaris wrote...
If you can't make your own dialog choices then you AREN'T ROLEPLAYING by definition. Thus a game that's mainly autodialog simply isn't an RPG. Witcher 2 was at best a hybrid (great game but I wouldn't call it an RPG). Even if you do, remember that Witcher at least gave you genuine choices including two entirely different chapters in the middle of the game.
A very limited amount of autodialog may be appropriate for some very select scenes, but by and large, if you are relying on autodialog then you aren't playing an RPG pretty much by definition.
-Polaris
JamesFaith wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
If you can't make your own dialog choices then you AREN'T ROLEPLAYING by definition. Thus a game that's mainly autodialog simply isn't an RPG. Witcher 2 was at best a hybrid (great game but I wouldn't call it an RPG). Even if you do, remember that Witcher at least gave you genuine choices including two entirely different chapters in the middle of the game.
A very limited amount of autodialog may be appropriate for some very select scenes, but by and large, if you are relying on autodialog then you aren't playing an RPG pretty much by definition.
-Polaris
So Deux Ex wasn't RPG because there was some autodialog? Story with revolutionary numbers of variation propably doesn't matter.
And Gothic wasn't RPG because there was some autodialog? Yes, faction system in G2 which offered you three little different storyline doesn't matter. Quests whith multiple way of solving (my favourite Enter Khorinis with 6 solution + 1 secret with bonus XP) doesnť matter.
And Witcher with some autodialog is hybrid RPG. Sure, game called best RPG of last few years by fans and critics both is surely not RPG, because there is some autodialog.
JamesFaith wrote...
And Witcher with some autodialog is hybrid RPG. Sure, game called best RPG of last few years by fans and critics both is surely not RPG, because there is some autodialog.
Modifié par tonnactus, 25 août 2012 - 11:34 .
tonnactus wrote...
JamesFaith wrote...
And Witcher with some autodialog is hybrid RPG. Sure, game called best RPG of last few years by fans and critics both is surely not RPG, because there is some autodialog.
(Dialogue)Choices alone arent worth anything without real consequences. Thats why the Witcher games beat every Bioware game i know. Gerald could get killed right at the start of the game if he behaves like an idiot.
Compare this to any Bioware game except Dragon Age where at least some party members leave.
LucasShark wrote...
As an experiment I just played the first 2 missions (more or less what anyone would call the "intro") to all 3 games back to back. And I have to say this: while ME3's is the most... bleh: "cinematic", it is also the least involving, at least as an RPG.
In both ME1 and ME2, virtually every line of dialogue which came out of my Shepard's pie hole was determined by my input. I determined if Shepard was a paragon of decencey, an aloof neutralist, or a galactic scaled dick, and I could have as much or as little exposition as I wanted.
Why was this? Because nearly every line in conversation had all of these:
- Polite/paragon choice
- Neutral choice
- Hard-ass/renegade choice
- and of course investigate, which yielded anywhere from 2-5 options
And this didn't happen once a scene, oh no: it happened for nearly every line my Shepard spoke, I determined his/her persona, and how they treated their interactions with others.
To contrast with ME3: I think there was all of a dozen times when it actually asked me what Shepard was going to say. And even when it did, there were only ever 2 options: those being "do you want to be a nice person" or "do you want to be a dick" This is like saying Fable has a meaningful moral choice system: do you want to be Gahndi or Adolf Hitler?
For every line I defined, Shepard spouted another 4 that I didn't.
Right along with this comes linierity: Yes the missions of ME1 and ME2 were structurally linier, but in ME1 even before I'd even achieved spectre status, there were over a half-dozen side-stories and minor interactions I could take part in. Even in ME2 this was present: do you pick up everything? Or rush through? Do you work for cerberus? Or defy them? Do you say hello to your crew or not?
Meanwhile, the first actually optional thing which ever happens in ME3 besides picking up items is whether or not you visit your wounded squad mate in hospital, and even then: it's not as if it lets you go anywhere else!
Personally I blame this on "shooter mode", in which a single chain of dialogue is put forth, and then all else is just tacked on it seems.
Some might say this is something minor to complain about, but I disagree. It's the difference in our relationship to our player character which matters. In ME1 and ME2, we ARE shepard, in ME3, we are piloting A shepard by remote control now and then.
Modifié par Valmarn, 25 août 2012 - 12:58 .
Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 25 août 2012 - 01:04 .
Valmarn wrote...
LucasShark wrote...
As an experiment I just played the first 2 missions (more or less what anyone would call the "intro") to all 3 games back to back. And I have to say this: while ME3's is the most... bleh: "cinematic", it is also the least involving, at least as an RPG.
In both ME1 and ME2, virtually every line of dialogue which came out of my Shepard's pie hole was determined by my input. I determined if Shepard was a paragon of decencey, an aloof neutralist, or a galactic scaled dick, and I could have as much or as little exposition as I wanted.
Why was this? Because nearly every line in conversation had all of these:
- Polite/paragon choice
- Neutral choice
- Hard-ass/renegade choice
- and of course investigate, which yielded anywhere from 2-5 options
And this didn't happen once a scene, oh no: it happened for nearly every line my Shepard spoke, I determined his/her persona, and how they treated their interactions with others.
To contrast with ME3: I think there was all of a dozen times when it actually asked me what Shepard was going to say. And even when it did, there were only ever 2 options: those being "do you want to be a nice person" or "do you want to be a dick" This is like saying Fable has a meaningful moral choice system: do you want to be Gahndi or Adolf Hitler?
For every line I defined, Shepard spouted another 4 that I didn't.
Right along with this comes linierity: Yes the missions of ME1 and ME2 were structurally linier, but in ME1 even before I'd even achieved spectre status, there were over a half-dozen side-stories and minor interactions I could take part in. Even in ME2 this was present: do you pick up everything? Or rush through? Do you work for cerberus? Or defy them? Do you say hello to your crew or not?
Meanwhile, the first actually optional thing which ever happens in ME3 besides picking up items is whether or not you visit your wounded squad mate in hospital, and even then: it's not as if it lets you go anywhere else!
Personally I blame this on "shooter mode", in which a single chain of dialogue is put forth, and then all else is just tacked on it seems.
Some might say this is something minor to complain about, but I disagree. It's the difference in our relationship to our player character which matters. In ME1 and ME2, we ARE shepard, in ME3, we are piloting A shepard by remote control now and then.
What's ironic is the player can choose at the start of the game how much dialogue and combat they engage in throughout the game. Despite the player being able to opt for more or less player input in the conversations, they still force any excessive amount of auto dialogue even when one opts for more player input.
It's a damned shame that a company like BioWare would stoop to trading substance for style, but not at all surprising since EA acquired them.
IanPolaris wrote...
If you can't make your own dialog choices then you AREN'T ROLEPLAYING by definition. Thus a game that's mainly autodialog simply isn't an RPG. Witcher 2 was at best a hybrid (great game but I wouldn't call it an RPG). Even if you do, remember that Witcher at least gave you genuine choices including two entirely different chapters in the middle of the game.
A very limited amount of autodialog may be appropriate for some very select scenes, but by and large, if you are relying on autodialog then you aren't playing an RPG pretty much by definition.
-Polaris
tonnactus wrote...
JamesFaith wrote...
It always depends on specific game. For example Gothic had a lot of autodialog and still it is great RPG.
Same thing for Deus Ex Human Revolution.
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