189 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

ME2 actually only had two options on the right most of the time.

...

What?

[Applepie_Svk]

o Ventus wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

ME2 actually only had two options on the right most of the time.

...

What?

Brovikk and his trolling...

[IanPolaris]

robertm2 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you can't make your own dialog choices then you AREN'T ROLEPLAYING by definition. Thus a game that's mainly autodialog simply isn't an RPG. Witcher 2 was at best a hybrid (great game but I wouldn't call it an RPG). Even if you do, remember that Witcher at least gave you genuine choices including two entirely different chapters in the middle of the game.

A very limited amount of autodialog may be appropriate for some very select scenes, but by and large, if you are relying on autodialog then you aren't playing an RPG pretty much by definition.

-Polaris

so by your definition the old final fantasy games or the old pokemon games are not roleplaying games because you dont get to choose whay your character says? now you are being ridiculous. choice in dialogue is fairly new to the gaming world. should we just discount every original rpg becuase they dont have something that developers just started doing? you have a warped defintion of the word roleplay. its still a roleplaying game if you are playing a specific role that you dont have any say over what happens to that role.

I never considered final fantasy to be an RPG.  Ever.  Really.  RPG== ROLEPLAYING Game.  If you can't make conversation decisions and decisions that affect the persona of your character then you are not roleplaying. Period.  By Definition.  Don't let the marketing gurus tell you otherwise.  That doesn't mean such games are bad.   They simply aren't roleplaying game.  I don't know what this seems so radical to so many of you.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The old Baldur's Gate series had covo choices, and I sure wouldn't call them recent.  For that matter going even further back, DDOs Might and Magic had convo choices and that definately isn't recent.  So the idea that conversational choice is a recent brainstorm is dead wrong.  In fact the trend seems to be going the other way.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 août 2012 - 09:22 .

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


I never considered final fantasy to be an RPG.  Ever.  Really.  RPG== ROLEPLAYING Game.  If you can't make conversation decisions and decisions that affect the persona of your character then you are not roleplaying. Period.  By Definition. 

Definition of whom?

A key feature of the genre is that characters grow in power and abilities, and characters are typically designed by the player.[1] RPGs rarely challenge a player's physical coordination or reaction time, with the exception of action role-playing games

http://en.wikipedia....ying_video_game

Its one thing to not like rpgs with a lack of dialogue choices. (i dont like games like Dark Souls for this reason).

Doesnt change the fact that they are rpgs.

[JamesFaith]

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


I never considered final fantasy to be an RPG.  Ever.  Really.  RPG== ROLEPLAYING Game.  If you can't make conversation decisions and decisions that affect the persona of your character then you are not roleplaying. Period.  By Definition. 

Definition of whom?

A key feature of the genre is that characters grow in power and abilities, and characters are typically designed by the player.[1] RPGs rarely challenge a player's physical coordination or reaction time, with the exception of action role-playing games

http://en.wikipedia....ying_video_game

Its one thing to not like rpgs with a lack of dialogue choices. (i dont like games like Dark Souls for this reason).

Doesnt change the fact that they are rpgs.

Yeap.

There was no dialog in Dungeon master and it is great clasical RPG with many RPG awards.

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


I never considered final fantasy to be an RPG.  Ever.  Really.  RPG== ROLEPLAYING Game.  If you can't make conversation decisions and decisions that affect the persona of your character then you are not roleplaying. Period.  By Definition. 

Definition of whom?

A key feature of the genre is that characters grow in power and abilities, and characters are typically designed by the player.[1] RPGs rarely challenge a player's physical coordination or reaction time, with the exception of action role-playing games

http://en.wikipedia....ying_video_game

Its one thing to not like rpgs with a lack of dialogue choices. (i dont like games like Dark Souls for this reason).

Doesnt change the fact that they are rpgs.

Too inclusive and Wiki is not a very good source and you are neglecting much of that link anyway.  Here is a better and more rigorous one:

http://whatis.techta...laying-game-RPG

I will highlight the money quote:

A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game's imaginary world

Please pay attention to the key highlighted word.  If you are being forced into autodialog then you are NOT interacting with the world,  You are passively watching a character interact with that world.  The ability to choose your actions including your conversational options is necessary for the game to be considered a RPG.  If most of the scenes have autodialog (as ME3 does) then you aren't interacting and thus it's not an RPG.

-Polaris

Edit: Changed dialog to autodialog in my last sentence above to express my original intent properly.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2012 - 04:19 .

[IanPolaris]

JamesFaith wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


I never considered final fantasy to be an RPG.  Ever.  Really.  RPG== ROLEPLAYING Game.  If you can't make conversation decisions and decisions that affect the persona of your character then you are not roleplaying. Period.  By Definition. 

Definition of whom?

A key feature of the genre is that characters grow in power and abilities, and characters are typically designed by the player.[1] RPGs rarely challenge a player's physical coordination or reaction time, with the exception of action role-playing games

http://en.wikipedia....ying_video_game

Its one thing to not like rpgs with a lack of dialogue choices. (i dont like games like Dark Souls for this reason).

Doesnt change the fact that they are rpgs.

Yeap.

There was no dialog in Dungeon master and it is great clasical RPG with many RPG awards.

The term RPG has been misapplied and misdefined in computer games for years.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also will note that no dialog ==/== to autodialog.  In the case of no dialog one could presumably interact with the fictional world in other ways to develop your character.  That would be difficult but I won't say it would be impossible.  In the case of autodialog, however, you are passively watching while someone else talks and plays your character FOR YOU.  At that point you aren't roleplaying anymore.  Anytime you have autodialog in a scene, that scene has zero roleplay for this reason.  If most of the game has autodialog (as ME3 does), then one simply can not call it an RPG (well obviously one can but it wouldn't be one).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2012 - 01:56 .

[Peranor]

IanPolaris wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


I never considered final fantasy to be an RPG.  Ever.  Really.  RPG== ROLEPLAYING Game.  If you can't make conversation decisions and decisions that affect the persona of your character then you are not roleplaying. Period.  By Definition. 

Definition of whom? 

A key feature of the genre is that characters grow in power and abilities, and characters are typically designed by the player.[1] RPGs rarely challenge a player's physical coordination or reaction time, with the exception of action role-playing games

http://en.wikipedia....ying_video_game

Its one thing to not like rpgs with a lack of dialogue choices. (i dont like games like Dark Souls for this reason).

Doesnt change the fact that they are rpgs.

Yeap.

There was no dialog in Dungeon master and it is great clasical RPG with many RPG awards.

The term RPG has been misapplied and misdefined in computer games for years.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also will note that no dialog ==/== to autodialog.  In the case of no dialog one could presumably interact with the fictional world in other ways to develop your character.  That would be difficult but I won't say it would be impossible.  In the case of autodialog, however, you are passively watching while someone else talks and plays your character FOR YOU.  At that point you aren't roleplaying anymore.  Anytime you have autodialog in a scene, that scene has zero roleplay for this reason.  If most of the game has autodialog (as ME3 does), then one simply can not call it an RPG (well obviously one can but it wouldn't be one).

I agree.
by some peoples definition of a RPG all games could be labeled a RPG

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


Too inclusive and Wiki is not a very good source

Wikipedia took this definition out of a book for game design...(click on the footnote)
A standard book.

[i]A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game's imaginary world

Interact can mean a lot of things. Clicking on a character and hear his dialogue is also interactive.

If you like it or not. The citation i post from Wikipedia describes what all Rpg games have in common. Dialogue isnt the thing. Otherwise games like Diablo, Dark Souls etc. wouldnt be rpgs and that is just a ridicoulus claim.

Modifié par tonnactus, 26 août 2012 - 12:09 .

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Too inclusive and Wiki is not a very good source

Wikipedia took this definition out of a book for game design...(click on the footnote)
A standard book.

A book that was trying to find a commonality in what games that were called RPGs had....and generally failing instead of going back to the start and defining RPG which I DID.  What you quoted was not a definition.  What I quoted was.

A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game's imaginary world

Interact can mean a lot of things. Clicking on a character and hear his dialogue is also interactive.

If you like it or not. The citation i post from Wikipedia describes what all Rpg games have in common. Dialogue isnt the thing. Otherwise games like Diablo, Dark Souls etc. wouldnt be rpgs and that is just a ridicoulus claim.

Again you miss the point.  Interact means interact.  It means making decisions about the world that affect you and your character.  If you are watching your character speak with no input from you, [i]then you are not interacting by definition and therefore not roleplaying.  Ergo every scene with dialog is a scene where you are not roleplaying.  If most of the scenes have autodialog (and they do in ME3), then it means it's NOT A ROLEPLAYING GAME regardless of what the industry wants to call it.

What you are attempting is to find a way to call pretty much any game where you control an avatar an RPG and that flatly isn't the case.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2012 - 05:28 .

[Peranor]

IanPolaris wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Too inclusive and Wiki is not a very good source 

Wikipedia took this definition out of a book for game design...(click on the footnote)
A standard book.

A book that was trying to find a commonality in what games that were called RPGs had....and generally failing instead of going back to the start and defining RPG which I DID.  What you quoted was not a definition.  What I quoted was.

A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which each participant assumes the role of a character, generally in a fantasy or science fiction setting, that can interact within the game's imaginary world

Interact can mean a lot of things. Clicking on a character and hear his dialogue is also interactive.

If you like it or not. The citation i post from Wikipedia describes what all Rpg games have in common. Dialogue isnt the thing. Otherwise games like Diablo, Dark Souls etc. wouldnt be rpgs and that is just a ridicoulus claim.

Again you miss the point.  Interact means interact.  It means making decisions about the world that affect you and your character.  If you are watching your character speak with no input from you, [i]then you are not interacting by definition and therefore not roleplaying.  Ergo every scene with dialog is a scene where you are not roleplaying.  If most of the scenes have autodialog (and they do in ME3), then it means it's NOT A ROLEPLAYING GAME regardless of what the industry wants to call it.

What you are attempting is to find a way to call pretty much any game where you control an avatar an RPG and that flatly isn't the case.

-Polaris

I agree. If listening to autodialogue is considered roleplaying then Half-Life life could be considered a RPG. Hell, even watching a movie could be considered roleplaying.

[Greed1914]

Some of the writers have mentioned that auto-dialogue supposedly helps the flow of a scene, and in most other situations that might be true. However, ME was known for letting the player participate in dialogue with numerous prompts in a conversation. I find that it breaks the flow even more to remove this because I'm distracted by how long it was since I last had anything to say. I just don't see how offering prompts broke the immersion. If the player wanted to sit and think on it, that was their prerogative, you get used to having that pause pretty quickly.

If I wanted flowing dialogue with no input from me, I'd play any number of other games, read a book, or watch TV. The thing is, I expect an RPG to allow me to role-play by allowing lots of opportunities for participation. I don't feel like I participated when someone talks AT Shepard and the only response is, "Ah, I see." And I certainly don't feel like I participated when I activate quests (and I use the term loosely since they're fetch quests) by just overhearing someone and running off without bothering to follow up with some questions.

[cydoniawarrior]

The auto dialogue was a mixed bag for me. On one hand there were some instances where it was needed, in some conversations I only got one line that I actively selected, and others I chose nearly all the responses. It feels a bit disjointed. It didn't break the game for me, but if the voice acting wasn't so superb then it would do. I hope and pray the next ME brings back the old system again-ME2 was perfect. But I'm not holding my breath.

Modifié par cydoniawarrior, 26 août 2012 - 09:17 .

[iSousek]

I've seen we have entered the arena of what is an RPG. Is it a game where your character levels up and you customize skills and equipment? Or is it a game where your character interacts with others based on your own input?

I personally go for the second because leveling up and choosing how I shoot cerberus in the face is not playing any sort of role in any sort of interactions.

On the side note, I am planning to create a topic which will be a quantitive statistic on how much dialogue Shepard actually has in every game, how many choices and investigation options. Though, please be patient since I still have to film my ME 3 playthrough xD