64 réponses à ce sujet

[Eshme]

satans_karma wrote...

I hate to disagree, but I think making mistakes and fixing them is part of the learning process. (And frankly, I'd rather not throw out two weeks worth of labor if I can fix my mistakes. Other than the inside-out torso, this model is now working in-game.)

I don't expect a reply from anyone, and eventually, through sheer dumb luck, I'll stumble upon the solution. I
appreciate any help to lessen the amount of stumbling I do, but if you don't want to give suggestions, then please don't feel obligated to do so.

Apart from learning by doing, guidance by experience is a primary lesson imo. Assuming beginner doesnt even know IF mistake is fixable the way they go at it (my impression), this is even more so. And also as much i hate throwing out work, how bad in your opinion is it, to go just once even, back to where the problem started and see which of the steps did go wrong. IMO this is the more valueable way of fixing by knowing what can and what cant. How to principally repair this issue itself ,i already told you in my last post in the first sentence, so thats nothing to complain about. You didnt even find out. And this is it.
Apparently neither was a suggestion to you. Else you wouldnt be writing that. I cant help it can i.

[DarthParametric]

satans_karma wrote...

Do you want the max file or the game files?

Game model - MSH/MMH/PHY

[Karma]

Eshme wrote...

Apparently neither was a suggestion to you. Else you wouldnt be writing that. I cant help it can i.

Quite the contrary actually. I've tried all of your suggestions except the "Don't make mistakes in the first place" and "Just start all over" suggestions. (The first because it's impossible for a beginner not to make mistakes, and the second because that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.) I wrote that because you seemed rather annoyed at giving me suggestions, and I didn't want you to feel obligated to help. I was showing concern for your feelings.

Eshme wrote...

Assuming beginner doesnt even know IF mistake is fixable the way they go at it (my impression), this is even more so.

You're right; I don't know if it's even fixable, which is why I asked here for things to try. If I try everything I can think of and everything others can think of and still none of it works, then I will start over.

Eshme wrote...

And also as much i hate throwing out work, how bad in your opinion is it, to go just once even, back to where the problem started and see which of the steps did go wrong.

I don't know what caused the problem in the first place (because I did the exact same thing to all three parts but only the torso got turned inside-out) or exactly when the problem started (maybe it was what I was doing at the time, maybe it was something I did in the beginning and it only manifested itself now, or maybe it was something I did without realizing it). Even if I could figure that out, I may not have a save near that point. Starting over could quite possibly mean starting all over from the very beginning. I spent many hours reweighting the bones and tweaking the vertices, and I really don't want to redo that if I don't have to. So, to answer your question, it would be quite bad to start over in this case.


@Darth
The files can be found here.

Modifié par satans_karma, 31 août 2012 - 04:36 .

[DarthParametric]

The normals on the QF_ARM_NUDA mesh are all inverted. The QF_GLV_NUDA and QF_BOO_NUDA meshes are ok.

Additionally, the QF_ARM_NUDA mesh has some topology issues on its lefthand side (on the right when looking at it from the front). I'm not sure if this is due to the import process or due to edits you have made. It's not major, but may result in some undesirable distortion during animation, particularly around the stomach/side area. You also haven't welded the verts around the forearms where you have joined on other meshes. I suspect they will look fairly unsightly in-game, although depending on how the textures are mapped there will likely be seams there regardless. You may want to consider hiding the joins with some sort of glove/bracelet/bracer/etc.

[Karma]

DarthParametric wrote...

The normals on the QF_ARM_NUDA mesh are all inverted. The QF_GLV_NUDA and QF_BOO_NUDA meshes are ok.

Is there a quick way to fix the normals, or do I need to start over? I've tried resetting the normals as alschemid suggested and flipping the normals as eshme suggested, but either I'm not doing it correctly or it's having no effect.

DarthParametric wrote...

Additionally, the QF_ARM_NUDA mesh has some topology issues on its lefthand side (on the right when looking at it from the front). I'm not sure if this is due to the import process or due to edits you have made. It's not major, but may result in some undesirable distortion during animation, particularly around the stomach/side area.

Do the topology issues you see resemble the "weird blotches" in the picture I linked in a previous post? If so, that happens as soon as I attach the DAO and DA2 meshes together. It happened on the stomach in a couple spots, on the back in a couple spots, on the righthand ribs, and along the arms. I'm not sure the proper way to fix it nor how to avoid it. Everything looks smooth before I attach, but as soon as I hit attach, it gets jagged. Tessellating the affected polygons seemed to make it less noticeable in max (I can't tell how it looks in-game because the torso is inside out), but neither Eshme nor Alschemid thought it wise, so I didn't go any further than tessellating two polygons on the righthand stomach.

DarthParametric wrote...

You also haven't welded the verts around the forearms where you have joined on other meshes. I suspect they will look fairly unsightly in-game, although depending on how the textures are mapped there will likely be seams there regardless. You may want to consider hiding the joins with some sort of glove/bracelet/bracer/etc.

I believe the forearms were from the nude glove model and I didn't change the seams at all, so there is currently a seam there. If there is a way to get rid of (or move) that seam, I can try. Otherwise, I might be able to find something to hide the seam.

When I select the vertices along that seam, I can see the weld section of one of the rollouts, but how do I use it (what is supposed to happen)? Also, can I undo the weld (or will it not matter) if I decide to change the forearm/hands at a later time? (At the moment, the long fingernails clip the pants a little when standing still and the wrists have a slightly unnatural curve in-game.)

Modifié par satans_karma, 31 août 2012 - 09:18 .

[Eshme]

Flipping the poly does invert the normals as well, if they are not explicit, trust me. Max renders the poly's 2 sided in the viewport so you only see slight changes in the lighting if any, same goes for the sidedness.
So either they are explicit, or they are being flipped u just didnt see it. Try it on a box. There are lot more causes that would explode this thread tho. From the looks of it you are quiet allergic to complicated analysis. I cant tell more than what it is.

A quick way is handpicking poly's that are wrong, did i say "crap" in one of my last posts. Thats that, there you go. Although if 99% are wrong, then you flip all but fix the other 1% right? There may be advanced features elsewhere, but im not sure if any challenges my script for one reason or two.

I got to change my question regarding modifiers. You are merging DA and DA2 mesh. Does one of them have modifiers as you merge/attach?

[Karma]

Eshme wrote...

Flipping the poly does invert the normals as well, if they are not explicit, trust me.

I don't disbelieve you. I'm just either doing it wrong, or it's not working for whatever reason.

Eshme wrote...

A quick way is handpicking poly's that are wrong, did i say "crap" in one of my last posts. Thats that, there you go. Although if 99% are wrong, then you flip all but fix the other 1% right? There may be advanced features elsewhere, but im not sure if any challenges my script for one reason or two.
...
From the looks of it you are quiet allergic to complicated analysis.

What you are saying may be perfectly comprehensible to someone who has been doing this for a while, but I've only been working in max for all of 2.5 weeks. I need a bit more detail in the steps; otherwise, I'm probably going to make several wrong attempts before it finally works.

Eshme wrote...

So either they are explicit, or they are being flipped u just didnt see it.

Before I flip them, it looks right in the viewport but it renders inside out when I choose "Render Production." When I flip them, there's some sort of temporary visual change in the viewport. After I flip them, it still looks fine in the viewport and it now renders correctly, but it still looks inside out when I view it in-game.

UPDATE: Instead of messing with the max file, I imported the resulting mmh into a new scene. After flipping the normals, I got this. Since this is progress (sort of), I'll continue messing with the mmh instead of the max file. Maybe I can get it to work.

Eshme wrote...

I got to change my question regarding modifiers. You are merging DA and DA2 mesh. Does one of them have modifiers as you merge/attach?

Before I attach, I convert the DAO mesh to an editable mesh, which deletes all modifiers from the stack automatically. The script I use to import the DA2 mesh does not import any of the modifiers. However, when I add the material to the DA2 mesh, I usually add the unwrap UVW modifier at the same time because the material isn't visible until I do. Sometimes I attach the meshes before applying the material, and sometimes I apply the material before attaching. I can't remember which I did in this case, so it's possible the DA2 mesh had an unwrap UVW modifier.

Modifié par satans_karma, 01 septembre 2012 - 03:01 .

[DarthParametric]

The QF_ARM_NUDA mesh looks to have 100% inverted normals, so flipping them all shouldn't be an issue.

First go to the Utilities tab, click on the More button on the top left, then in the pop-up window scroll down to the bottom, select UVW Remove and hit ok. Then down in the new Parameters section, with QF_ARM_NUDA mesh selected, hit the Materials button. This will strip off the texture so you can see things more clearly. You can add it back later. The mesh should appear black because of the flipped normals.

Back in the Modify tab, right click on the Edit Normals modifier in the stack and choose delete, select the Editable Poly modifier, add a Normal modifier from the drop down. Flip Normals will probably already be selected, if so you should see the mesh switch to whatever object colour has been applied to it. The Normal modifier should be positioned above the Editable Poly and below the Edit UVW modifiers in the stack. Assuming so, right click on the Normal modifier and choose Collapse To. Now select the Edit UVW modifier, right click and delete it. For some reason leaving the original one results in the shading being broken when applying the texture. Once the old one is gone, select the Editable Poly and then apply a new Unwrap UVW modifier. Now you can reapply the material.

The topology issues I mentioned earlier will cause the texture problems you mentioned because vertices have been moved/combined, thus those sections of the mesh no longer conform properly to the original UV map. That in turn will cause texture stretching or compression (or combinations thereof) in the affected areas. Whilst you could attempt to manually fix the problem areas, I would suggest the most expedient approach would either be to delete that whole side of the mesh and mirror back the other side, which appears to be unaffected, or just re-import the original and start from scratch. In either case you are going to lose your weighting/skin, but I see no way around that. Trying to continue working with a mesh that has a series of compounding problems isn't going to work out great in the long run, and is ultimately just going to cost you more time trying to fix. Best just to cut your losses now. Scrapping all your work and starting from scratch is one of the cornerstones of modelling. It's something you'll be doing a lot if you want to spend any time doing this sort of thing.

As to the joining of the forearms, I don't model in Max so I can't help you there. There are numerous video and text tutorials covering Max basics. Google should help you find something appropriate.

[Eshme]

This pic ring any bell?

[Karma]

I've been attempting to get three different body models working. The running, spell casting, and sword swinging animations all appear to look okay in game. However, when any of the three bodies stand still in game, they become slightly deformed around the wrist and pinky. I lined up the mesh as closely as possible to the bones, and I reweighted the finger and wrist bones as best I could (using a vanilla hand model as a guide). Anyone have any guesses as to what to try?

Another simpler question: Do I need to weld the vertices that fall along a seam? It's not a problem to do so, but if it won't make a difference one way or another...

[alschemid]

If I should guess I would say it looks like a bone weight problem. Have you rotate the bones around while weighting to see if it was deforming ok?

You don't need to weld the vertices along a seam if the seam is not visible in the game, be careful when bone weighting though, because both vertices should have the same weight.

[Karma]

I move/rotate the bones as a quick test to see the big problems, but I prefer to test in game to see the little problems with the common animations.

Could the vertices having different weights cause the problem in the picture?

[alschemid]

When you have a seam and both vertices don't have the same weight depending of the movement of the bone the seam would open and you would be able to see the world through it.

I think it is just rebalancing the weight through all the bones that control that part of the finger. As for the wrist I can not see exactly what is going on, perhaps a bone is influencing it and shouldn't?

[Karma]

So should that part of the hand be weighted more or less and in which bones?

[alschemid]

It looks like the base of the pink finger is going farther than it should, perhaps increase the influence of the hand and the base of the ring finger on the base of the pink finger?