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[ElitePinecone]

Mr Fixit wrote...

If there must be such a thing as elf, I want it to be a feral force of nature with morality, outlook, and culture nearly incomprehensible to humans.

Otherwise, why even bother with different races.

The city elves are an example of a ghettoised underclass brought about by humans - with all that inherent hisorical tension - and the Dalish are heavily influenced by human culture even as they try to rediscover their own through occasionally messing with powerful and destructive magical objects.

Both of these things are interesting takes on fantasy. Both offer commentary on sociopolitics, which is exactly what speculative fiction as metaphor can do.

Why strip away all the nuance by making them a cliched 'force of nature'? For that matter, if elves were 'nearly incomprehensible to humans' how could any interactions with them take place in the game? Without a frame of reference that we understand, talking to elves would be mystifying if not frustrating.

(Using another Bioware game as an example: Garrus is one of Mass Effect's most popular characters, but imagine if he spoke in terrifying avian screaming and squwaking rather than English, took the lore's turian military-quasi-fascism seriously instead of being 'human' in outlook, and didn't have any of the one-liners or quips that he's known for. Not so popular, suddenly.)

[Mr Fixit]

[quote]ElitePinecone wrote...

The city elves are an example of a ghettoised underclass brought about by humans - with all that inherent hisorical tension - and the Dalish are heavily influenced by human culture even as they try to rediscover their own through occasionally messing with powerful and destructive magical objects.[/quote]

What you describe is interesting in principle, like reading an entry for a race in a bible for a TV show. What we do have, however, is nowhere near that interesting. Not for a second, in both DA:O and DA2, were elves compelling to me. Their looks are bland and generic, their culture is barely defined in the games besides codex entries (and those should be additional information, not a replacement for actual in-game development). I have nothing to bury my teeth into; all I am left with is 'humans with pointy ears'


[quote]Why strip away all the nuance by making them a cliched 'force of nature'? For that matter, if elves were 'nearly incomprehensible to humans' how could any interactions with them take place in the game? Without a frame of reference that we understand, talking to elves would be mystifying if not frustrating.[/quote]

Well, if we already established that Tolkienesque elves are a true cliche, than a deviation from that path can hardly be called 'cliche'. At least not to a degree that some of the pictures above seem to suggest.

As for a frame of reference, I point to the in-game depiction of qunari, in my opinion the most interesting race of DA series. Yes, one could argue that even they share similarities with certain human cultures, but I hold they are still far above and beyond what you could find in a human. They have a distinctly alien outlook where life, death, and the meaning of the number 42 are concerned.

And yes, talking to them is supremely frustrating. Why would that be a problem?

[/quote]

[The Elder King]

Mr Fixit wrote...



What you describe is interesting in principle, like reading an entry for a race in a bible for a TV show. What we do have, however, is nowhere near that interesting. Not for a second, in both DA:O and DA2, were elves compelling to me. Their looks are bland and generic, their culture is barely defined in the games besides codex entries (and those should be additional information, not a replacement for actual in-game development). I have nothing to bury my teeth into; all I am left with is 'humans with pointy ears'

That's the problem, I believe. I mean, we had two dalish as companions in DAA and DA2, an Origin and a main quest in DAO, and we don't know much.
I think they could show more of the dalish culture and history, in-game. While it's not exactly original (since they have a special connection with the nature, as it's shown from their magic, which is present in other stories) I'd like to know more.

[ladyofpayne]

syllogi wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Katriel was described as having curly blonde hair, an orlesian accent, and being very pretty, perhaps more "conventionally" pretty than Rowan.  Fiona had short brown hair, and Maric found her attractive.  That doesn't necessarily mean that, as elves, they have to look like a human with pointy ears.  There can be a middle ground between the worst examples of DA2 elves (I still feel really sorry for Orana) and fantasy art illustrations of fashion models with pointy ears (not that there's anything wrong with that, it just isn't the direction the DA artists want to go in with the elves in this world).

An orleasian accent?  I'll have to read the book again, but I thought Katriel was a city-elf/bard from Fereldan and hence didn't have an Orleasian accent.  Fiona did have an Orleasian accent because she was raised in Orlais.

I also think that it was written according to DA scripture that Maric wasn't particulary attracted to Fiona but that she reminded him of Katriel enough that he was drawn to her.

As Knight of Dane said, she was Orlesian...part of the reason Loghain immediately hated her and distrusted her so much.  As for Fiona, I think her elfy-ness was what initially drew Maric to her, so I assume he at least found her physically attractive.

If Fiona was designed in DA 2 style Maric should choose Nicolas and take care of him when Julien was killed.

[Knight of Dane]

^Why?

[Renmiri1]

Don't think Maric went for talkative happy guys like Nicolas. He was more fond of the broody / heroic types like Julian or Kel 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 23 août 2012 - 04:33 .

[Ianamus]

The Elves in Dragon Age are almost all either poverty-ridden second class citizens who live in slums, slaves, mages locked away in circle towers or aggressive and traditionalist Dalish who live amongst nature and have their own blood tattooed on their faces. 

It wouldn't make any sense for a young female elf to stroll through the countryside, amazing onlookers with her beauty and innocence. It may be the traditional view of elves, and what people would expect, but it's not Dragon Age. 

Modifié par EJ107, 23 août 2012 - 04:38 .

[The Elder King]

Knight of Dane wrote...

^Why?

He probably thinks that elves desing in DA2 sucked. I can't disagree with him. I didn't like very much the merging with Avatar.

[King Cousland]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I love how everyone nowadays complains about Bioware's writing but then want them to rip off Tolkien for elves.
If you want Tolkien go read some Tolkien. I'll stick with a unique world, one that hasn't been ripped off by every other fantasy setting around.

Thedas is hardly a unique world. It draws from many different fantasy series most notably Westeros and Middle-Earth, and is also massively influenced by real world history and culture. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 23 août 2012 - 05:01 .

[Knight of Dane]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I love how everyone nowadays complains about Bioware's writing but then want them to rip off Tolkien for elves.
If you want Tolkien go read some Tolkien. I'll stick with a unique world, one that hasn't been ripped off by every other fantasy setting around.

I just want them to make pretty elves 

[Wulfram]

I think the basic elf design in DA2 can work, it just needs to be implemented better. And perhaps generally moved a notch or two back towards the human norm - give them a softened nose ridge, slightly more swept back ears and the equivalent of a couple of hot meals.

One thing I do think is quite noticable is that the major elvish NPCs - Merrill, Fenris, Orsino - look quite decent. They also don't have the extreme sticky out ears.

[King Cousland]

BrotherWarth wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

I love how everyone nowadays complains about Bioware's writing but then want them to rip off Tolkien for elves.
If you want Tolkien go read some Tolkien. I'll stick with a unique world, one that hasn't been ripped off by every other fantasy setting around.

Thedas is hardly a unique world. It draws from many different fantasy series most notably Westeros and Middle-Earth, and is also massively influenced by real world history and culture. 

And yet the more unique aspects are the ones people here are complaining about and want to be more uniform.

Being unique doesn't necessarily mean something is of good quality. 

[Jerrybnsn]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I love how everyone nowadays complains about Bioware's writing but then want them to rip off Tolkien for elves.
If you want Tolkien go read some Tolkien. I'll stick with a unique world, one that hasn't been ripped off by every other fantasy setting around.

The writing?  No.  I don't think I read anyone complaining about the writing.  The story in DA2 wasn't good, but that is not the same as complaining about the writing.  If that makes sense.

[Jerrybnsn]

Knight of Dane wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

I love how everyone nowadays complains about Bioware's writing but then want them to rip off Tolkien for elves.
If you want Tolkien go read some Tolkien. I'll stick with a unique world, one that hasn't been ripped off by every other fantasy setting around.

I just want them to make pretty elves 

Hear, hear.  Even the Dragon Age lore says that elves are suppose to LOOK attractive to humans in their own way.  The goat people that populated DA2 didn't quite live up to the DA lore.  Bioware needs to find a style that makes elves look "unique" yet still reach the goal of looking "attractive".

[thats1evildude]

I thought they were attractive, and the last time I checked, I was human.

Not all of them, mind you, but I didn't find all of the DAO elves that good-looking either. So if there's an unspoken rule that elves have to be OMG SO BEAUTIFUL, they've been breaking that law from the beginning of the series for me.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that I can't think of a single elf in DAO that I found more attractive than Merrill.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 août 2012 - 05:52 .

[berelinde]

Knight of Dane wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

I love how everyone nowadays complains about Bioware's writing but then want them to rip off Tolkien for elves.
If you want Tolkien go read some Tolkien. I'll stick with a unique world, one that hasn't been ripped off by every other fantasy setting around.

I just want them to make pretty elves 

They did. Well, maybe not Orana, poor thing, but for the most part, they were fine.

Of course, standards of beauty are always a highly personal thing. YMMV.

[Reznore57]

Their face didn't bother me , some were really pretty.
But the female body.....and their moulin rouge underwear.I could have nightmare about it.
To me , they look bordeline anorexic ...and not just thin.
But it didn't shock me with clothes on...but Merril love scene ...just burn my eyes.

For me they just need some tweaking , the feature big eyes /straight nose , long face could use a bif of refinement.So they will look slightly less alien and more pretty.

[Das Tentakel]

I remember two threads earlier this year that extensively discussed the subject of Elven looks and culture (or lack thereof):

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/8973070/11

(this one started out as a comparison of Amalur and DA2, turned mid-way into a discussion of Elves)

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/315/index/9064063/1

(thread started by EWR).

For those who are into the subject and missed these, they might be interesting. I expect we're going to continue to have some posts on Elves in this thread, but these two threads  (and undoubtedly several others on BSN) have plenty to say, I think.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 23 août 2012 - 06:07 .

[Samudo]

How did this turn into a discussion about elves exactly?

[Knight of Dane]

Because some want better elves in DA3 obviously.

[Das Tentakel]

Samudo wrote...

How did this turn into a discussion about elves exactly?

Blame Tolkien.

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree with Reznore. I thought the new faces were, for the most part, pretty bad looking. But it wasn't until the Merril love scene where she looked like a food-deprived humpback that I nearly lost my lunch. Nothing about the new design is attractive or appealing to me for the elves. Humans aren't bad... but I found the renderings done in DA:O to be much better. Dwarves look "roughly" the same, minus the fact that there wasn't a single female to be found... anywhere.

All in all, I feel like the design and feel of DA2 was a big step back from DA:O, and I hope that they spend a lot more time on making things cleaner for DA3.

[thats1evildude]

Samudo wrote...

How did this turn into a discussion about elves exactly?

Well, I don't see how else we're going to bring this horse back to life except by beating it.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 août 2012 - 06:22 .