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[Dagr88]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The heart icon in the DA2 dialogue did make the romancing just a click of a button like the Sims. Selecting
certain responses in Origins without icons made romancing more natural.

I really don't get it. Why not just combine DA:O and DA2 dialog options like in Deus Ex or just allow us to choose by selecting it in Gameplay menu. VA might not sound the way we pictured it in our heads (after reading the line), but it gives player bigger sence of control over PC (DA:O fan's argument).

Modifié par Dagr88, 08 septembre 2012 - 10:22 .

[Uccio]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Weird!

I saw the "heart" icons on DA2 as flirts, not "sex me up NAO" commands. It worked well for me. I flirted pretty much with anyone, even Aveline. She wasn't offended , she thought it was "sweet".

My comment about DAO is that all romances are bland and essentially the same. Alistair ? sweet, loves you, no conflict. Leliana ? sweet, loves you, no conflict. Zevran ? Sweet, loves you, no conflict. Morrigan is the only one that gives you a bit of heartache with her leaving.
Getting them to love you takes a bit more effort than DA2 because you have to pick dialogs blindly.. or just buy them a  gift. But after you get them to love you ? No challenge in there.

True, the opportunity to use those sex mods and kiss mods or even the vanilla "click to kiss" was fun but I didn't really need it. I can headcanon steamy scenes just fine.( And Anders kiss is one of the most romantic VG kisses ever!). I would have liked more dialog on DA2 so I concede this point. The interaction with your LI was much easier and faster on DAO. But.. so bland.. I still prefer less dialog, more intensity on DA2. Is just my opinion of course.

DA2 romanced LI leave you, betray you, tug at your heartstrings. They feel a lot more real to me. Alistair is my LI on DAO and is a very sweet romance but it is so Mary & Gary Sue it is painful! Gives me diabetes!

DA2 romances were so lame that they can be easily summed up, flirt/flirt/flirt/kiss/shag/goodbye. About as deep as a pudle if you ask me. Those dam hear icons made me gringe so badly. But what would you expext for a game designed for 10 years old kids. I mean "ninjamanced" in DAO? People really have problem wiht reading comprehension. I´m not english native and I was not once "ninjamanced" by any of the characters in Origins, I like to read what I choose. (not directed at you, just generall thoughts).

[Jerrybnsn]

I actually played DA:Origins before I tried out the first Mass Effect game. I was spoiled by playing the Origins game first because the Mass Effect conversations wasn't as immersive and in depth as Origins. And that's what DA2 adopted in their direction of the series. Not a good call, imo.

[Renmiri1]

Ukki wrote...



DA2 romances were so lame that they can be easily summed up, flirt/flirt/flirt/kiss/shag/goodbye. About as deep as a pudle if you ask me. Those dam hear icons made me gringe so badly. But what would you expext for a game designed for 10 years old kids. I mean "ninjamanced" in DAO? People really have problem wiht reading comprehension. I´m not english native and I was not once "ninjamanced" by any of the characters in Origins, I like to read what I choose. (not directed at you, just generall thoughts).

Oh bless your heart!  I'm afraid I'm a wee bit pass the 10s though 

You missed the part where Anders blows up a church ? Even though he knows you, his lover,  abhor killing innocents ? Or the part where Fenris leaves you after your first night ? Or Isabella saying she doesn't want to mix feelings with fun ?

On DAO is gift/kiss/shag/shag/shag     and "click-to-kiss". Granted, you might mess up while getting the LI to love you but you can easily fix / cheat with gifts. Not so on DA2. And after you kiss. the LI is yours, no growing with the relationship, no heartache.. Sure it is fun to some people. Was even fun for myself. Alistair is just adorable! But.. didn't feel real. In my many years past my 10th birthday   I have never seen a romance so one dimensional as Alistair / Leliana / Zevran. And don't think me and my friends never looked! 

There is a reason fairy tales - stories made for kids - end with "they lived happily ever after.." Kids dig that sugary stuff.. Adults find it a bit artificial 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Sylvianus]

I am replaying DAO right now, with a female warden, and for the first time I have chosen Allistair to be my romance. And I am objectively and truly amazed by his content and how serious it is. (' with romance ) David Gaider did a marvelous job with that character. Don't know how you did to think he wasn't real. ( subjective I guess... lol ) And you said somewhere Allistair didn't have any issue and was one dimensional, actually that is flat out wrong.

I wonder if you really played DAO, or if you are unable to contain yourself saying crap about DAO, simply because you can't stand people critizing DA2, which is pathetic if that's the case.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 septembre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Renmiri1]

Sylvianus wrote...

I am replaying DAO right now, with a female warden, and for the first time I have chosen Allistair to be my romance. And I am objectively and truly amazed by his content and how serious it is. (' with romance ) David Gaider did a marvelous job with that character. Don't know how you did to think he wasn't real. ( subjective I guess... lol ) And you said somewhere Allistair didn't have any issue and was one dimensional, actually that is flat out wrong.

I wonder if you really played DAO, or if you are unable to contain yourself saying crap about DAO, simply because you can't stand people critizing DA2, which is pathetic if that's the case.

Strawman much ?

http://social.biowar...na_id=703957223 

I enjoyed DAO a lot. Is a good game but to me, very clichee. Lord of the Rings already did the "gather elves and mages to battle evil" bit almost 50 years ago. DAO is one of the best clones of this trope, but is one I played, watched and read many many times. 
Same for Alistair. He is sweet, tender, loves the Warden to bits but the only tension you get in the relationship is his tension about his "first night". And if you chose Loghain but that was stupid, why would you chose the guy who killed your mentor over your LI ? Other than taht, Alistair is there for you, no fights, no worries, nothing. Perfect. Gary Stu. 

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fan fiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:52 .

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...
Did you even read my post? Anders does what he does whether you romance him or not. That's not a deep romance, that's just rigid storytelling. Seriously, read my last post.

Nope, I didn't read it and there is a simple explanation for it:

I was replying to another post, not yours, hence the 10 year old references

Ukki wrote...


DA2 romances were so lame that they can be easily summed up, flirt/flirt/flirt/kiss/shag/goodbye. About as deep as a pudle if you ask me. Those dam hear icons made me gringe so badly. But what would you expext for a game designed for 10 years old kids. I mean "ninjamanced" in DAO? People really have problem wiht reading comprehension. I´m not english native and I was not once "ninjamanced" by any of the characters in Origins, I like to read what I choose. (not directed at you, just generall thoughts).

My apologies if you felt it was directed at you.

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...
Did you even read my post? Anders does what he does whether you romance him or not. That's not a deep romance, that's just rigid storytelling. Seriously, read my last post.

Nope, I didn't read it and there is a simple explanation for it:

I was replying to another post, not yours, hence the 10 year old references

I'm referring to my post from about 5 hours before that. The one that addressed your arguments.

The arguments made in response to another poster ? About the age of DA2 fans ??

I missed it then. Care to point out what they were ?

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Not true. Romancing Leliana then defiling the ashes or romancing Zevran then turning against the elves to side with the werewolves can result in them turning against you. And Alistair will still go against you if you choose to make Loghain a Warden iirc. So it's not just "We're together, we'll love each other forever."
On the other hand, the romances in DA2 have very set paths. Anders does what he does and keeps Hawke in the dark regardless. Merrill and Fenris will always take your side at the end if you romanced one of them. Isabela will always return with the relic if you romanced her.
Again, it seems like you're juxtaposing criticism from one game to the other.

I think you are on to something here:

Leliana leaves you if you violate her faith
Zevran leaves you if you attack his race
Alistair leaves you if you let the killer of his mentor be honored as a Warden

IF YOU do something nasty they leave you. Big Whoop. What an unexpected surprise. You can't wipe your arse with their beliefs. Gee, who could have seen that coming ? 

Anders blows up chantry no matter what you do
Fenris leaves you after one night no matter what you do 
Isabela steals the Relic no matter what you do 

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO **** happens to the romances in DA2. You can be the perfect lover or the meanest rival matters not. Your LIs have a mind of their own and will do stuff for their own reasons, without including you or your feelings on their plans.

I don't konw about you but my RL relationships were all with people with a mind of their own and sometimes they did stuff that hurt me. Sometimes I wasn't the center of their universe. Sometimes they surprised me, in a bad or inconvenient way. The same happened to my sisters, my friends, my cousins, my colleagues. I have never seen a RL relationship that has a clear "don't press here or i'll leave" red button and if you can control yourself and not press it you live "happily ever after".

This unpredicatability, this "mind of their own" actions I see in DA2 romances is what I call depth. Is also what feels real for me. Perhaps I'm unlucky and I only know unlucky people but that has been my RL experience and that is what feels real to me. DAO feels like a sugary fairy tale. DAO is not even a good fun rom com (romantic comedy) because those have a bit of tension and unexpected elements on it.

Is it fun ? Ya, to play once. But the cognitive dissonance gets to me. I know my RL is anything but this perfect guy ofering me roses. So it gets annoying. To me. Is one dimensional. Feels more like a computer program, logic and orderly, do a then b happens. Boring and unreal 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[Sylvianus]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I am replaying DAO right now, with a female warden, and for the first time I have chosen Allistair to be my romance. And I am objectively and truly amazed by his content and how serious it is. (' with romance ) David Gaider did a marvelous job with that character. Don't know how you did to think he wasn't real. ( subjective I guess... lol ) And you said somewhere Allistair didn't have any issue and was one dimensional, actually that is flat out wrong.

I wonder if you really played DAO, or if you are unable to contain yourself saying crap about DAO, simply because you can't stand people critizing DA2, which is pathetic if that's the case.

Strawman much ?

http://social.biowar...na_id=703957223 

I enjoyed DAO a lot. Is a good game but to me, very clichee. Lord of the Rings already did the "gather elves and mages to battle evil" bit almost 50 years ago. DAO is one of the best clones of this trope, but is one I played, watched and read many many times. 
Same for Alistair. He is sweet, tender, loves the Warden to bits but the only tension you get in the relationship is his tension about his "first night". And if you chose Loghain but that was stupid, why would you chose the guy who killed your mentor over your LI ? Other than taht, Alistair is there for you, no fights, no worries, nothing. Perfect. Gary Stu. 

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fan fiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.

 Given all that crap you are saying everyday about DAO I really wonder if you played the game. That was sincere. There are many things you say that show how you didn't pay attention to the game, especially the story. Or maybe you just love hyperbole, exaggerations, even if they are inaccurate.
And Allistair lacking flaws or a Mary sue ? Wow.

So Allistair wasn't selfish with loghain while it was about the fate of Ferelden ? Allistair is loyal when he decides to leave you because you didn't listen to his dream ? Wow.

Allistair who doesn't like to take his responsability ? Allistair who is naive ? Allistair who doesn't know what he wants ? Allistair who is not pragmatic and hypocrite with magic, also unable to accept that someone critizes a friend to him, while it sounds true ( duncan, eamon and some other people ) ? Excuse me that does sound like a mary sue ?

And didn't you think that what you perceive as positive aspects many people didn't ? There are many people who don't like him and for many reasons, for example his frivolity about sex like a child and not a man. Not everybody needs to be crazy or unstable to be interesting. 

And Allistair has issues, but not with his romance. Not a big deal; I think you don't get it. Not all romance need to be the same nor to follow the same path. Allistair is stable, other are less stable like Morrigan. But that has nothing to do with one dimensional.

Maybe you should stop looking at some useless buzz words like Mary Sue or cliche, I don't think they help you.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 septembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Renmiri1]

Sylvianus wrote...

And Allistair lacking flaws or a Mary sue ? Wow.

So Allistair wasn't selfish with loghain while it was about the fate of Ferelden ? Allistair is loyal when he decides to leave you because you didn't listen to his dream ? Wow.

Allistair who doesn't like to take his responsability ? Allistair who is naive ? Allistair who doesn't know what he wants sometimes ? Allistair who is not pragmatic and hypocrite with magic, also unable to accept that someone critizes a friend to him, while it sounds true ( duncan, eamon and some other people ) ? Excuse me that does sounds like a mary sue ?

And didn't you think that what you perceive as positive aspects many people didn't ? There are many people who don't like him and for many reasons, for example his frivolity about sex like a child and not a man. Not everybody needs to be crazy or unstable to be interesting. 

And Allistair has issues, but not with his romance. Not a big deal; I think you don't get it. Not all romance needs to be the same nor to follow the same path. Allistair is stable, other are less stable like Morrigan. But that has nothing to do with one dimensional.

Maybe you should stop looking at some useless buzz words like Mary Sue or cliche, I don't think they help you.

Read my post above, I think Brother Warth nailed what I see as depth and you guys don't.

LIs on DAO are very easy to predict and manipulate. If feels like a child's game. Color only between the lines.  Stay out of the cracks in the sidewalk and you don't break your moms back. Is all very logic and ordered.

I'm a divorced mom of two so my love life has been anything but ordered and predictable. People change, things change, time takes it's toll.. A paint by the numbers perfect romance just doesn't feel real to me. Is very one dimensional: They love you unless you do "X". Just take care of avoiding "X" and is fairy tale for you! 

Alistair is adorable. Even his little flaws are adorable, and a lot of us just want to put him on our lap and hug him. He is like a little kitten. Sure he can pee on your carpet or chew on your usb cable. Kittens aren't perfect! But the main defining thing about them and Alistair is being this big cuddly adorable "pet". Not a man. Just a stereotype. He is even a prince ffs. All he is missing is the white horse!

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Your argument makes no sense to me. You say that the static romances of DA2 that Hawke can't change are better than the Origins romances that the Warden can change, but you say it's because the characters of DA2 have a mind of their own? People can be effected by others, especially when you're very close. The fact that the DA2 characters do what they do regardless of their relationship with Hawke does not equate to depth and I'm having a hard time understanding why you think it does. You even argue against yourself right in this post. Leliana, Zevran and Alistair all clearly have minds of their own since they don't just do what you say.

We may disagree but I think you nailed the reason why. 

The fact that the DA2 characters do what they do regardless of their relationship with Hawke 

RL is not controlable. Mine at least  So the DAO romances that are so easy to manipulate and control don't feel real to me. Yes people influence each other. Anders stayed peaceful for 7 years on the side of Hawke. He only "flipped out" because Meredith was going overboard. Had nothing to do with Hawke. But Meredith was pretty bad since Act 1 and Anders did not resort to violance for years. Time and circunstances changed, his love for Hawke didn't but other stuff did. Isabela comes back. Fenris may not join you even if you romance him (one night). Happened to me 

I never knew what my companions or LI would do, there was no clear "do this and i leave" instruction set. Feels real to me as on my RL there is no clear instruction set and time and circunstances changed people I loved dearly. There was no clearly labeled "don't do this" and you can be happy ever after. Well there was but I didn't do it and still I didn't get the fairy tale! I never cheated on my ex husband and I still found him with a 18 year old. He didn't follow the rules. He is hardly the first and will not be the last. RL people surprise you. I like a bit of realism in a game. 

Sure is fun to have a perfect "happily ever after" playthrough. But it breaks my immersion too much. I know it isn't real, Not on my experience. 

I'm glad it feels real and fun to you. I wish I could believe in princes coming on a white horse giving you roses. I can barely make it through one PT but if it works for you, enjoy. You are very lucky! 

BrotherWarth wrote...

I'm sure you would like to think that people do what they do regardless and you can't change how they act, but that's simply nonsensical. No one is static. Everyone is dynamic. For a person to be completely unaffected by someone after being very close to them for 7 years is just stupid. 

 
Don't I wish you were right!  10 years of marriage and 2 kids weren't enough for my "prince".  Ya it happens. seen it, lived it, I'm glad you haven't and hope you never do. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I really don't understand you at all. You interpret things in the exact opposite way of logic. You contradict your own points and seem to be oblivious.

I've been told my mind works in strange ways before 

We can just agree to disagree then. No need to fight over different tastes for what a fun romance is. Hopefully DA3 will have LIs that cater to booth of us 

[Zubie]

I liked that Hawke couldn't control everything that his companions did. That was great. It still did not make their story arcs and their personalities interesting though. They were too one dimensional. They had their one thing, whether that was Anders and the templars, Isabela and her damn relic, fenris and his hatred of mages or whatever, that is all they would ever talk about and wouldn't shut the hell up about it.

[Uccio]

Renmiri1 wrote...


I don't konw about you but my RL relationships were all with people with a mind of their own and sometimes they did stuff that hurt me. Sometimes I wasn't the center of their universe. Sometimes they surprised me, in a bad or inconvenient way. The same happened to my sisters, my friends, my cousins, my colleagues. I have never seen a RL relationship that has a clear "don't press here or i'll leave" red button and if you can control yourself and not press it you live "happily ever after".

I feel like commenting this, since I feel that with 20 years of life with my wife (next spring) I can say something general regarding the issue. The thing is that I feel people who have "their own mind" in the hard sence are set to fail in relationship from the start. I´ve watched couples get together and divorse and I knew that it would happen just because they are unable to find the middle ground. I do things my way and dam the consequences. I think the success in my marriage is based on the knowledge that we both know how to keep each other happy, and what not to do to hurt the other one. We do have our separate interest though still but knowing what can be done and what not is crucial.

I see that the slightest close comparison (if it can be described like it) between real life relationship and game can be found from DAO and not in DA2 from these games. Doesn´t mean obviously that I would call it a something to be mimed but I mean that the direction is the right one,  if that makes any sence.

[augustburnt]

Yay another game for Bioware to completely **** up! Cant wait to be disappointed again.

[Dagr88]

augustburnt wrote...

Yay another game for Bioware to completely **** up! Cant wait to be disappointed again.

Strange thing... After reading your post I started to appreciate DA2 and ME3 even more.

Keep 'em coming!

[Emzamination]

Dagr88 wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...

I want no teasing romance no Samara/Aveline treatments! Gief me full romance Bioware!

I don't have anything against your proposal, but every time I hear such suggestions I realize more and more that DA series are actually DateSim.

I'll never understand why people make this Ignorant comparison every time they see any form of romance in a video game. Do you even know what a Dating sim is?

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