87 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...

Not to mention that Jory was a coward. Any time you have deny something more than once, when nobody has accused you of it, there's a problem.

I accused him of it.  Every chance I get.  I accused Alistair of being a coward as well.  And I lost respect for Alistair straight off because he liked Ser Jory and didn't like Daveth.  What a rotten judge of character! 

[bobsmyuncle]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Duncan definitely did not kill Ser Jory in self defense. While Ser Jory did draw his sword first, he was very clearly backing up, and was not seeking a confrontation. He just didn't want to go through with the Joining, and if allowed to leave he probably would have done so. Duncan advanced on him and killed him in cold-blood.

The only possibly valid reason I can see Dunan possibily killing Ser Jory for, is to protect the secret of the Joining. The general public seems to know nothing at all about what is involved, and I assume the Grey Wardens have their reasons for keeping it secret. Perhaps the Grey Wardens fear a post-Blight backlash if people discovered they drank Darkspawn blood in a Dark Ritual, and that they carry the taint of the Darkspawn?

1) Jory drew steel first.

2) Jory struck first.

3) It was necessary to protect the order, as you noted, which is all that Duncan cares about. He didn't like having to kill Jory, but if it was a choice between killing Jory and letting him leave and blab about possibly fatal blood rituals, it's not much of a choice is it?

[HarlequinDream]

You can ask Duncan "What if I'm having second thoughts?" and he tells you. He is very clear that you cannot leave now. Once you are close to the Joining or in the Joining, you cannot back down. Also, Duncan says the initiation may be fatal. "Some may be called to pay the price now."



If the public knew about the Gray Wardens' secret, it's very likely that they might be completely shunned, especially when people don't even believe that a Blight is occurring. It is, in a sense, blood-magic. Drawing upon blood for power. Or at least it could be seen as such. Thus, the Gray Wardens might be hunted as a kind of apostate by the Chantry.



Since no one knows why only a Gray Warden can kill the Archdemon and end a Blight, I don't really see the secret getting out as "ruining their glory." If anything, the Gray Wardens are very private about the sacrifices they make. When they start to go mad, they go to the Deep Roads, never to be heard from again. Sure, the Gray Warden who kills the Archdemon is considered a hero, but most of the public probably only thinks they fell in battle against the big dragon. They don't know that this person knowingly sacrificed their life.

[Taleroth]

robertthebard wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think I am missing the point, because I was pretty sure that if say Sten had killed the archdemon the soul/essence would just go into the nearest darkspawn and start the whole Blight over agian as soo n as it got more powerful. That the reason the Grey Wardens were necessary was to make the essence go into them, a vessel already filled with a soul, thus obliterating the archdemon's essence preventing the rebirth cycle.

So unless you are planning on making everyone in the army partially tainted, don't you need Grey Wardens still?

You need someone tainted, presumably by the ritual.  You do not need Grey Wardens.  There's no reason to make the entire army undergo the ritual, that's just silly.

So if you taint every 100th member of the army with the Joining, aren't they now Grey Wardens?  After all, the Joining is the only thing that seperates a Grey Warden from anyone else.

Incorrect.  As I stated earlier, the Grey Wardens are a specific mercenary organization.  It'd be like claiming everyone who carries a rifle is an Army Ranger.

The Grey Wardens answer to Weisshaupt Fortress.  They have a chain of command.  They are a specific organization, not simply tainted humans.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 décembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[SarEnyaDor]

a tainted army ranger!!

[JabberJaww]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Duncan definitely did not kill Ser Jory in self defense. While Ser Jory did draw his sword first, he was very clearly backing up, and was not seeking a confrontation. He just didn't want to go through with the Joining, and if allowed to leave he probably would have done so. Duncan advanced on him and killed him in cold-blood.

The only possibly valid reason I can see Dunan possibily killing Ser Jory for, is to protect the secret of the Joining. The general public seems to know nothing at all about what is involved, and I assume the Grey Wardens have their reasons for keeping it secret. Perhaps the Grey Wardens fear a post-Blight backlash if people discovered they drank Darkspawn blood in a Dark Ritual, and that they carry the taint of the Darkspawn?

1) Jory drew steel first.

2) Jory struck first.

3) It was necessary to protect the order, as you noted, which is all that Duncan cares about. He didn't like having to kill Jory, but if it was a choice between killing Jory and letting him leave and blab about possibly fatal blood rituals, it's not much of a choice is it?

This

[Taleroth]

I find it rather silly to dismiss the entirety of humanity as incapable of sacrifice while at the same time treating the Grey Wardens as noble self-sacrificers.  Either the same type of people capable of being noble Grey Wardens exist whether or not the Grey Wardens exist or the Grey Wardens are not noble at all.

So, either each country can find noble recruits of its own capable and willing to sacrifice themselves or its reasonable to presume the Grey Wardens keep it a secret simply so they can maintain their own powers of authority (such as the ability to conscript even kings).

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 décembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[robertthebard]

Taleroth wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think I am missing the point, because I was pretty sure that if say Sten had killed the archdemon the soul/essence would just go into the nearest darkspawn and start the whole Blight over agian as soo n as it got more powerful. That the reason the Grey Wardens were necessary was to make the essence go into them, a vessel already filled with a soul, thus obliterating the archdemon's essence preventing the rebirth cycle.

So unless you are planning on making everyone in the army partially tainted, don't you need Grey Wardens still?

You need someone tainted, presumably by the ritual.  You do not need Grey Wardens.  There's no reason to make the entire army undergo the ritual, that's just silly.

So if you taint every 100th member of the army with the Joining, aren't they now Grey Wardens?  After all, the Joining is the only thing that seperates a Grey Warden from anyone else.

Incorrect.  As I stated earlier, the Grey Wardens are a specific mercenary organization.  It'd be like claiming everyone who carries a rifle is an Army Ranger.

The Grey Wardens answer to Weisshaupt Fortress.  They have a chain of command.  They are a specific organization, not simply tainted humans.

I never once got any orders from anyone as a Grey Warden, except in Ostagar.  Riordan, being the senior Grey Warden of Orlais could have surely pulled rank regarding Loghain, and would have been perfectly justified in killing Alistair for desertion when he "quit".  So no.  They may be an organization, but nobody within it is giving any of the Wardens any orders.  So, anyone you taint with the Joining is a Warden, that is the defining characteristic of a Warden.

[SarEnyaDor]

I agree with you - Grey Wardens aren't noble. They are victims of circumstance for the most part who have the capacity to do noble things, but that doesn't make them noble.

[Herr Uhl]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I agree with you - Grey Wardens aren't noble. They are victims of circumstance for the most part who have the capacity to do noble things, but that doesn't make them noble.

Being the only people able of stopping the apocalypse, putting them on a pedestal is pretty much inevitable, no matter who they are.

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

I never once got any orders from anyone as a Grey Warden, except in Ostagar.  Riordan, being the senior Grey Warden of Orlais could have surely pulled rank regarding Loghain, and would have been perfectly justified in killing Alistair for desertion when he "quit".  So no.  They may be an organization, but nobody within it is giving any of the Wardens any orders.  So, anyone you taint with the Joining is a Warden, that is the defining characteristic of a Warden.

Isn't the reason you didn't get any orders because the Wardens couldn't get into Fereldan? And by the time Riordan gets in you've already amassed your own personal army, etc. Even if he tried to give you orders you'd probably be able to ignore them if you wanted to. In fact I think he does give you orders, to an extent, as far as the initial battle at Denerim is concerned.

Duncan was head of the Wardens in Fereldan. That does imply there's a chain of sorts. Just because you haven't been given orders, doesn't mean there is no chain. Yes, anyone who takes the Joining becomes a Warden, but that doesn't mean there's no organization whatsoever. On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean that you'd answer to Weisshaupt just because. I suppose you could be a rogue Warden or something.

[bobsmyuncle]

Taleroth wrote...

I find it rather silly to dismiss the entirety of humanity as incapable of sacrifice while at the same time treating the Grey Wardens as noble self-sacrificers.  Either the same type of people capable of being noble Grey Wardens exist whether or not the Grey Wardens exist or the Grey Wardens are not noble at all.

So, either each country can find noble recruits of its own capable and willing to sacrifice themselves or its reasonable to presume the Grey Wardens keep it a secret simply so they can maintain their own powers of authority (such as the ability to conscript even kings).

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I agree with you - Grey Wardens
aren't noble. They are victims of circumstance for the most part who
have the capacity to do noble things, but that doesn't make them
noble.

Pretty much this. It's not that I think Grey Wardens are heroic, but once you've been roped in by the ritual you don't have a lot of choice in what you do. You have to fight darkspawn. If you don't go after them, they will come after you. The reason I think the ritual is kept a secret isn't, I think, to maintain power so much as it is self-preservation. The Chantry would **** a brick if they knew you were having people drink enchanted darkspawn blood. Before you think "well, let's be up front and let people choose," let's remember how understanding and tolerant the medieval Catholic Church wasn't. They'd sic their armies on you.

Personally, my warden was a good person but not particularly noble. She didn't want to die. She did some stupid things to avoid dying. But there you are, Wardens are human, and not always martyr material.

[SarEnyaDor]

That's probably why they shouldn't conscript unwilling nobles, elves and mages.... LOL

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 22 décembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[Cybercat999]

Not to mention that poor Jory is balding and has a really unattractive nose.

Now it it was Alistair in his place......

[Taleroth]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Pretty much this. It's not that I think Grey Wardens are heroic, but once you've been roped in by the ritual you don't have a lot of choice in what you do. You have to fight darkspawn. If you don't go after them, they will come after you. The reason I think the ritual is kept a secret isn't, I think, to maintain power so much as it is self-preservation. The Chantry would **** a brick if they knew you were having people drink enchanted darkspawn blood. Before you think "well, let's be up front and let people choose," let's remember how understanding and tolerant the medieval Catholic Church wasn't. They'd sic their armies on you.

Personally, my warden was a good person but not particularly noble. She didn't want to die. She did some stupid things to avoid dying. But there you are, Wardens are human, and not always martyr material.

I never said to be up front and let people choose.  I wasn't saying take in volunteers.  Any nation in Thedas should be fully capable of recruiting by its own standards, including a draft.

As for the Chantry?  Once they heard of it, I'd be surprised if they didn't try to make it a freakin' sacrement!  Come one, come all!  Show your devotion to the Maker by taking in his punishment!

[SarEnyaDor]

LOL - the Chantry in my game is all "Boooo! Blood magic is bad, all the time! boo hiss It is an affront to the Maker and His Bride! hiss hiss"

[Taleroth]

They're also "all magic is bad, but ignore the magical power of these Templars, that's okay."

I'd expect a second branch of Templars focused on darkspawn fighting, minimum.  If not enforcing it upon their clergy as a sign of devotion and as PR for the people to show the Chantry leads to salvation from darkspawn.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 décembre 2009 - 08:35 .

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...
I never said to be up front and let people choose.  I wasn't saying take in volunteers.  Any nation in Thedas should be fully capable of recruiting by its own standards, including a draft.

As for the Chantry?  Once they heard of it, I'd be surprised if they didn't try to make it a freakin' sacrement!  Come one, come all!  Show your devotion to the Maker by taking in his punishment!

The irony is that the sacrament would be to take the punishment in order to hinder the punishment. Since the chantry does not seem keen on being killed by darkspawn, a little hypocrisy would probably ensue. So neither I see it as a major problem.

[tbpierrot]

The Joining isn't that simple though - the Wardens couldn't just tell everyone to drink Darkspawn blood, you also need Archdemon blood, and I doubt that's very widely available.

[Sialater]

What about Jory?  He was told over and over and over and over and over.....


He was blinded by griffons.

[Taleroth]

Sialater wrote...

He was blinded by griffons.

He saw griffons?  Where?

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

Sialater wrote...

He was blinded by griffons.

He saw griffons?  Where?

Duncan rode in on a horse with a paper beak and papier maché wings.

[SarEnyaDor]

Over there, across the bridge in the Wilds that isn't at all covered in traps, run along after that Emissary - he's chasing the griffons away!

[Taleroth]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Over there, across the bridge in the Wilds that isn't at all covered in traps, run along after that Emissary - he's chasing the griffons away!

Charge!!!

Oww, my foot.  Oh god.

[SarEnyaDor]

I the Bruce Cambells of Thedas