87 réponses à ce sujet

[westiex9]

I felt sorry for both the other recruits, The fact they had such clear backstory and personality made it even more shocking when they died.



Jory clearly didn't know what he was getting into when he was recruited(does anyone) but i get the feeling he was expecting a war similar to the ones fought normally and thought he'd be a hero like in the stories.



seriously how could duncan knowingly recruit such a naive person into the grey wardens? he should have picked more recruits like daveth. Convicts make good wardens!

[Sialater]

See? Griffons will get you every time.

[westiex9]

Sialater wrote...

See? Griffons will get you every time.

How Duncan really convinced jory to join

Duncan: join us
Ser Jory:  hmmm i don't know i have a wife and a child on the way, and darkspawn give me upset stomachs and they are just so unhygenic...

Duncan:  It'll be fun and all new members receive a griffon
Ser jory: A griffon!!! well since you put it that way im in!!

(ostagar)

PC: they say we might be headed into the wilds
Ser jory: i hadn't heard about that strange,,,
(walks off)
Jory: secret griffon proving test soon as i get back ill get one must be!!!

(Duncans tent)
Duncan: you'll need three vials of blood and treaties
Ser jory: blood? meh must be for the griffons...so they can get a taste for the enemy...yeah thats it.. and the treaties must be a griffon instruction manual....this is gonna be great!!!

(Kocari wilds)
Morrigan: my mother has the treaties infact
ser jory: give us the instruction manuals so i can get my griffon!!!
Allistair: what?
PC: Griffons? 
Ser jory: errrr i mean lead on...

(back at camp)
Duncan: we will begin the joining at once i won't lie to you all it is a dangerous ritual and some may be required to pay the price now rather then later
Jory: Griffons can bite Figures there would be some danger....can't wait!!!!
PC: Griffons?
Allistair: whats he keep mentioning them for?
Daveth: Yeah he was even singing about them on the way back bloody aweful

Duncan:  Enough about Griffons!!  allistair take them to the old temple

(old temple)

Ser jory:this is it can't wait, hey were are all the griffons? oh they must be bringing them in yeah thats it 
(waits)
Duncan:It is time step forward Daveth
(drinks the blood and dies)
Ser jory: No Duncan you lied to me  theres no griffons here get back
PC: Griffons?
Allistair: what did you tell him Duncan
(Duncan stabs Jory)
Duncan: i am sorry (whispers) but the secret must remain so

(pc drinks)

(some time later)
Duncan welcome to the grey wardens
PC: you killed jory!!
Allistair: and why did he keep mentioning griffons?
Duncan: oh it happens sometimes, fighting darkspwan makes some new recruits go mad and think they will get griffons nothing to do with me i assure you

Allistair: Funny you should mention that everyone at my joining was talking about griffons
Duncan:Anyway lets head to the meeting with teh king
PC: what have i gotten myself into

Modifié par westiex9, 22 décembre 2009 - 09:43 .

[The Angry One]

westiex9 wrote..

seriously how could duncan knowingly recruit such a naive person into the grey wardens? he should have picked more recruits like daveth. Convicts make good wardens!

Jory won the tourney held specifically to find a Grey Warden recruit.
Duncan couldn't have known he was a crack jelly-head.

Edit: One thing that strikes me as odd about the tournament though, why do neither the noble PC or Ser Gilmore hear about it? Even if they couldn't attend you'd think they'd complain about it, especially Gilmore.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 décembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Duncan definitely did not kill Ser Jory in self defense. While Ser Jory did draw his sword first, he was very clearly backing up, and was not seeking a confrontation. He just didn't want to go through with the Joining, and if allowed to leave he probably would have done so. Duncan advanced on him and killed him in cold-blood.

The only possibly valid reason I can see Dunan possibily killing Ser Jory for, is to protect the secret of the Joining. The general public seems to know nothing at all about what is involved, and I assume the Grey Wardens have their reasons for keeping it secret. Perhaps the Grey Wardens fear a post-Blight backlash if people discovered they drank Darkspawn blood in a Dark Ritual, and that they carry the taint of the Darkspawn?

1) Jory drew steel first.

2) Jory struck first.

3) It was necessary to protect the order, as you noted, which is all that Duncan cares about. He didn't like having to kill Jory, but if it was a choice between killing Jory and letting him leave and blab about possibly fatal blood rituals, it's not much of a choice is it?

Jory drew first but he was also backing up, and it was fairly obvious in that scene that he just wanted to get out of there. He wasn't looking to kill you or Duncan so long as he was allowed to leave. He struck out at Duncan only after Duncan advanced on him rather aggressively, and Ser Jory was very clearly acting out in effort to defend himself. Duncan had no intention of letting Ser Jory leave, and from the point Ser Jory refuses, Duncan obviously planned on killing him if he didn't go through with the Joining.

I'm not necessarily arguing that Duncan wasn't justified in killing him, only that it wasn't in self-defense. Perhaps Duncan had a valid reason for protecting the secret of the Joining, but at the point that Ser Jory refuses I think Duncan planned on killing him. (unless Ser Jory relents and agrees to go through with it)

It appears that once a potential recruit learns what is involved in the Joining, there is no backing out. As far as the Grey Wardens are concerned you join or die, and Duncan was determined to enforce that rule.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 22 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[The Angry One]

The "Jory was backing up" angle is nonsense. If someone pulls a gun on a cop and backs up to a wall, the cop's still going to shoot them. You pull a weapon, you have just crossed the line into violence.

The fact that Jory was backing up just means he was nervous, and a nervous man with a weapon is very dangerous.

[Sialater]

The Angry One wrote...

The "Jory was backing up" angle is nonsense. If someone pulls a gun on a cop and backs up to a wall, the cop's still going to shoot them. You pull a weapon, you have just crossed the line into violence.
The fact that Jory was backing up just means he was nervous, and a nervous man with a weapon is very dangerous.

Thank you.

[Aedan_Cousland]

The Angry One wrote...

The "Jory was backing up" angle is nonsense. If someone pulls a gun on a cop and backs up to a wall, the cop's still going to shoot them. You pull a weapon, you have just crossed the line into violence.
The fact that Jory was backing up just means he was nervous, and a nervous man with a weapon is very dangerous.

That's because it only takes one squeeze of the trigger to kill someone.

Someone has to be within arm's reach to kill you with a sword, and Ser Jory was backing up in that scene, attempting to put greater distance between him and Duncan. The 'Duncan was just protecting himself' angle is nonsense.

He intented from the get-go to kill Jory if he didn't go through with the Joining.

As I stated earlier though, that doesn't necessarily mean it is unjustified.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 22 décembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Exploding8]

The Grey Wardens have to be a "secret club" of sorts.

The joining ritual requires darkspawn AND Archdemon blood. Its obvious that there isn't an unlimited supply of Archdemon blood just hanging around. If the joining was common knowledge and everyone was allowed to go through it, uncappable recruits would be wasting the Archdemon blood in the name of Glory, and would probably die at their first encounter with Darkspawn.

With seasoned Grey Wardens finding capable recruits, the chances of one passing the joining AND having the skill to get the killing blow on an Archdemon increases significantly, and so the Archdemon blood is saved for these elite few. That way its unlikely the Grey Wardens will run out of Archdemon blood, among other reasons.

This is why there's only (if I remember correctly) a few thousand Grey Wardens through out Thedas, as well. They have to be careful about who they choose to join the Grey Wardens.

And Ser Jory deserved his fate. He was a cowardly fool, he was told the he would likely die fighting the Darkspawn. God forbid he actually became a Grey Warden, was one of the only ones to survive to encounter the Archdemon, and then chickens out because he doesn't have the guts to make the sacrifice for the rest of Thedas.

Not to mention they are in a better position to demand aid from the nations of Ferelden. They have treaties basically requiring the aid of all the races. If they were just regular adventurers, they wouldn't have even gotten to see the leaders of the Dwarves or the Dalish at the time, and if they had the leaders would have felt no reason to rally behind their cause. Because of the unique position the Grey Wardens are in with their treaties, they stand a fairly good chance of uniting Ferelden. The reputation as saviors of Thedas probably doesn't hurt as far as trusting them goes, either.

Guess that's just my opinion, though.

Modifié par Exploding8, 22 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[Sialater]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The "Jory was backing up" angle is nonsense. If someone pulls a gun on a cop and backs up to a wall, the cop's still going to shoot them. You pull a weapon, you have just crossed the line into violence.
The fact that Jory was backing up just means he was nervous, and a nervous man with a weapon is very dangerous.

That's because it only takes one squeeze of the trigger to kill someone.

Someone has to be within arm's reach to kill you with a sword, and Ser Jory was backing up in that scene, attempting to put greater distance between him and Duncan. The 'Duncan was just protecting himself' angle is nonsense.

He intented from the get-go to kill Jory if he didn't go through with the Joining.

As I stated earlier though, that doesn't necessarily mean it is unjustified.

You need a LOT of room to swing a two-handed sword, dude.  How do you know he wasn't backing up for swinging distance?  Hell, his follow-through would have skewered Alistair and the PC.

[TMZuk]

In fact, so far I'm dissapointed in your inability to reject the warden's methods.



Especially in the Wynne dialogues, which I in general find poor. I sit digging my nails into my palms in frustration that I cannot give an obvious reply to her selfrighteous, holier than thou, patronizing remarks. "Do you know what it means to be a Grey Warden"? Reply: "Yes, dear, I do. It means having companions murdered and being lied to by the commander. It means being deprived of your family, your life, and your freedom, against your will and not a thing you can do about it".



In my first playthrough, I played a female noble human, who was conscripted into the wardens. Duncan killed Jory... She felt bit upset. She then finds out she'll die young... Getting angry now. Then she learns she is very unlikely to get children.... The last Cousland (she thinks) and she won't be able to bear a child.... at this point she was ready to start a personal rampage against all wardens and let Blight be Blight.



Don't get me wrong, I thought it was brillant to provoke that feeling, but very dissapointing that the only way you could express that in dialogue was through childish and whiney options.

[robertthebard]

I didn't want to be a kibab...Someone said earlier that they called Jory a coward every time it came up. To my knowledge, it only comes up after he says "I'm no coward"...Why in the name of the Creators would you have to continualy deny something that nobody said, until you denied it? We also can't do the Han Solo Shot First thing here, since Jory knew there was no turning back. Frankly, I'm glad it turned out like it did, because if he'd survived the Joining, I'd have had to listen to him crying about not being a coward for the whole game. Well, no I wouldn't because he'd be taking up a spot at the fire by Alistair.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Daveth is the tragic one. The one who was willing to sacrifice his life got killed. The coward Jory on the otherhand has nothing tragic about him.

[SarEnyaDor]

I do think it's a bit mean that if you don't complain about it being unfair Alistair will talk about how angry and unfair *he* thought it was, but if you do express that emotion yourself he disapproves and is a tad snarky with you.

[Arkaelis]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Who cares who swung first??

This reminds me of the "Han shot first" debate for Star Wars, now we have the DA version. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]
Jory swung first.  *shot*

Anyway, I'd be lying if I said I liked Jory, but nevertheless my respect for Duncan did diminish a little after he killed Jory... especially considering how Alistair is a good (as in not evil) character who idolized Duncan.

[deusofnull]

Ser Jory is a little ****.

Thats all I have to say about him.

[Arkaelis]

I wonder what level Duncan was to take out Jory so easily with a dagger and without spilling the goblet. XD

[bobsmyuncle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Daveth is the tragic one. The one who was willing to sacrifice his life got killed. The coward Jory on the otherhand has nothing tragic about him.

I'm still bitter about this. Daveth should have lived, damn it.

I'm not sure I'd call Jory a coward, but he is clearly unsuited to actual combat. He's a knight and he's used to fighting in a structured, predictable environment, and as soon as he's put in a position he can't predict (darkspawn in the wilds) he doesn't know what to do. Anyway, him backing away from Duncan doesn't generate any sympathy in me because, as I believe someone mentioned, he could be trying to get room to swing his big two-hander. That aside, he still escalated the conflict both times. It may be that Duncan would have killed him either way, but the fact remains that in this case violence was introduced by Jory. I'm not making the argument that Duncan is a good person, just that in this case I find Jory to be at fault for his own death.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I do think it's a bit mean that if
you don't complain about it being unfair Alistair will talk about how
angry and unfair *he* thought it was, but if you do express that
emotion yourself he disapproves and is a tad snarky with you.

Yes, this was a bit puzzling, but I assumed it's because he takes it as an attack on now-dead Duncan. Alistair also thinks Duncan recruited him because Duncan is "a good person" and "cared what I wanted," not because emissaries are dangerous (see The Calling for nasty darkspawn magic). And when he asks what you think of Duncan, if you say "I think Duncan is an okay guy" (I think I said he was "kind but firm") Alistair's response is a neutral "fair enough," but if you say "he saved my life, I owe him" then you get "OMGINORITE" and a bigger approval boost. Alistair doesn't really seem to see Duncan as a complex, imperfect person but rather an incarnation of "fatherness" (kinda same with Eamon). Duncan is a blind spot for him, even if he can acknowledge that "surprise, you're going to die young by throwing yourself at darkspawn in the Deep Roads" is an unfair thing to spring on someone after the fact.

Somewhat related, it makes me laugh how Alistair tells you in Ostagar that Wardens have to do some extreme things in the course of doing their jobs, and then spends the rest of the game chewing you out for doing those things. I'm okay with it because I'm evil impaired, but he clearly hasn't reconciled what he's been told about the Wardens with what he expects from them.

[AiyanaLindari]

Ser Jory really shouldn't have been there at all. The Grey Wardens are composed mostly of outsiders and outcasts, a bit like the Legion of the Dead really, who have no family or group where they belong. Ser Jory had a wife and baby-to-be, a future beyond all the fighting and war. He really didn't belong with the Grey Wardens and his situation was just unfortunate.

[tallon1982]

Doesn't Alistair say that the only Grey Wardens he knew of having children had them before they joined? So that would make Jory's family a moot point. Not to sound cruel or anything.

Modifié par tallon1982, 23 décembre 2009 - 12:15 .

[Layn]

why aren't there grey warden recruitment guidelines? "DONT RECRUIT PEOPLE WITH A FAMILY".

Daveth had nothing left, so of course he would have no reason to object. he would either drink the blood or be hanged. really nothing brave and selfless about that.

The PC didn't have much choice, due to limited dialogue options and the need for him/her to become a Warden.

But Jory was a family man. It was obvious he would panic when being threatened to be poisoned with something that very likely would kill him right then. i'm sure if someone talked to him just for a minute or two he would then agree to drink the blood.

[robertthebard]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Daveth is the tragic one. The one who was willing to sacrifice his life got killed. The coward Jory on the otherhand has nothing tragic about him.

I'm still bitter about this. Daveth should have lived, damn it.

I'm not sure I'd call Jory a coward, but he is clearly unsuited to actual combat. He's a knight and he's used to fighting in a structured, predictable environment, and as soon as he's put in a position he can't predict (darkspawn in the wilds) he doesn't know what to do. Anyway, him backing away from Duncan doesn't generate any sympathy in me because, as I believe someone mentioned, he could be trying to get room to swing his big two-hander. That aside, he still escalated the conflict both times. It may be that Duncan would have killed him either way, but the fact remains that in this case violence was introduced by Jory. I'm not making the argument that Duncan is a good person, just that in this case I find Jory to be at fault for his own death.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I do think it's a bit mean that if
you don't complain about it being unfair Alistair will talk about how
angry and unfair *he* thought it was, but if you do express that
emotion yourself he disapproves and is a tad snarky with you.

Yes, this was a bit puzzling, but I assumed it's because he takes it as an attack on now-dead Duncan. Alistair also thinks Duncan recruited him because Duncan is "a good person" and "cared what I wanted," not because emissaries are dangerous (see The Calling for nasty darkspawn magic). And when he asks what you think of Duncan, if you say "I think Duncan is an okay guy" (I think I said he was "kind but firm") Alistair's response is a neutral "fair enough," but if you say "he saved my life, I owe him" then you get "OMGINORITE" and a bigger approval boost. Alistair doesn't really seem to see Duncan as a complex, imperfect person but rather an incarnation of "fatherness" (kinda same with Eamon). Duncan is a blind spot for him, even if he can acknowledge that "surprise, you're going to die young by throwing yourself at darkspawn in the Deep Roads" is an unfair thing to spring on someone after the fact.

Somewhat related, it makes me laugh how Alistair tells you in Ostagar that Wardens have to do some extreme things in the course of doing their jobs, and then spends the rest of the game chewing you out for doing those things. I'm okay with it because I'm evil impaired, but he clearly hasn't reconciled what he's been told about the Wardens with what he expects from them.

The most consistent thing that I've seen about Alistair from the very beginning is inconsistency.  I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here, I'm sure most already know.  However, him being inconsistent is something that I expect.

[Dagorgil]

Arkaelis wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Who cares who swung first??

This reminds me of the "Han shot first" debate for Star Wars, now we have the DA version. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png
Jory swung first.  *shot*

Anyway, I'd be lying if I said I liked Jory, but nevertheless my respect for Duncan did diminish a little after he killed Jory... especially considering how Alistair is a good (as in not evil) character who idolized Duncan.

This is my take...
Han Solo = badass
Greedo = Dead

Duncan = badass
Ser Jory = Dead Coward

Who cares did what... all that matters is the end.  Rebellion wins... Blight ends.

[Original182]

If Ser Jory didn't draw his sword, Duncan still would have killed him and not let him reveal the secret of the Joining.

But in a trial, Duncan's case may be considered self defence.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Sialater wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The "Jory was backing up" angle is nonsense. If someone pulls a gun on a cop and backs up to a wall, the cop's still going to shoot them. You pull a weapon, you have just crossed the line into violence.
The fact that Jory was backing up just means he was nervous, and a nervous man with a weapon is very dangerous.

That's because it only takes one squeeze of the trigger to kill someone.

Someone has to be within arm's reach to kill you with a sword, and Ser Jory was backing up in that scene, attempting to put greater distance between him and Duncan. The 'Duncan was just protecting himself' angle is nonsense.

He intented from the get-go to kill Jory if he didn't go through with the Joining.

As I stated earlier though, that doesn't necessarily mean it is unjustified.

You need a LOT of room to swing a two-handed sword, dude.  How do you know he wasn't backing up for swinging distance?  Hell, his follow-through would have skewered Alistair and the PC.

Duncan has his back turned to Ser Jory when he starts backing up, and there appears to be at least 6 feet between them already. Ser Jory had more than enough room to kill Duncan if he wanted to without backing up, and if that were really his intention he could have attempted it when Duncan still had his back turned.

Sorry, but the cutscene just doesn't support your argument. Ser Jory was trying to flee, nothing more.