I think if Ser Jory didn't draw his sword, Duncan would have forced him to drink the blood.
But if you read THE CALLING, you'll find that Duncan's own joining was pretty chequered. He was a teenage Rogue and thief who was caught trying to steal from a Grey Warden. He killed the Warden in self-defence and was arrested and waiting in prison to be hanged. The Grey Warden who came to recruit him was the dead man's fiancée and she secretly hoped he would die in the Joining. He proved a good fighter and stayed loyal to her out partly out of guilt and a need to atone. She valued his loyalty, but she never really forgave him for killing her lover.
So Duncan wasn't exactly a stranger to the complicated messiness of the lives of Grey Wardens by the time we meet him in the game, which is about 20 years after the events of THE CALLING.
What about Ser Jory.
Débuté par
ervanol
, déc. 22 2009 10:50
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#77
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 08:36
Lotion Soronarr
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NEWS FLASH - the Joining is NOT Blood Magic
#78
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 08:40
Original182
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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
NEWS FLASH - the Joining is NOT Blood Magic
I used to think that too, because the Joining is not even a spell.
But, the Anvil of the Void is considered blood magic, you get to ask Caridin about it as one of the conversation options. The Anvil is not a spell too.
But if the Anvil of the Void is blood magic, how do we define blood magic? What is the definition of blood magic?
If it is possible for the Anvil of the Void to be classified as blood magic despite it not being a spell but just an inanimate object, what about the Joining?
#79
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 09:23
Mondo_
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JabberJaww wrote...
Actually, Jory swung first too as Duncan approached.. i mean, yeah, Duncan was going to kill him no matter what, but Jory did make the first swing... unfortunatly being a 2H warrior, the swing was EXTREMEMLY slow.
hahahah
#80
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 09:45
Sabriana
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To me, the joining is blood magic. Blood is used, as well as lyrium, and if I remember correctly, the mages have to set up the old temple for the joining.
Every time blood is used to alter situations/people, it's blood magic. It not being/being blood magic is a personal opinion, and how blood magic is defined is subjective.
Using the blood makes it possible for the wardens to become a vessel for the tainted soul of the archdemon, it alters their whole structure, such as being immune to darkspawn, having dreams in which some wardens even understand what the demon says, and being able to sense and being sensed by darkspawn. Not to mention that it also involves dying after 30 years, and it being highly unlikely to ever have children.
Due to the use of darkspawn blood, archdemon blood, and lyrium, the life of the participants as well as their senses and bodies, are irretrievably changed. That, to me, is blood magic of the highes degree.
Every time blood is used to alter situations/people, it's blood magic. It not being/being blood magic is a personal opinion, and how blood magic is defined is subjective.
Using the blood makes it possible for the wardens to become a vessel for the tainted soul of the archdemon, it alters their whole structure, such as being immune to darkspawn, having dreams in which some wardens even understand what the demon says, and being able to sense and being sensed by darkspawn. Not to mention that it also involves dying after 30 years, and it being highly unlikely to ever have children.
Due to the use of darkspawn blood, archdemon blood, and lyrium, the life of the participants as well as their senses and bodies, are irretrievably changed. That, to me, is blood magic of the highes degree.
#81
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 09:48
vickiediablos
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So I don't remember the dialogues very clearly, didn't read through the entire thread and am not sure if someone already mentioned it, but did Ser Jory even volunteer? The Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription so it's not like anyone really has a choice if they caught a GW's eye. The GW trick people to join them, really.
#82
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 09:53
SarEnyaDor
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Yes, Ser Jory not only volunteered but had to beat a bunch of other people at a tournament for the honor of being given a chance to have a go at the Joining.
Like Alistair, Jory had an idealized view of what he thought the Grey Wardens were, and what it meant to be one. He thought it was all about being a good fighter and having honor, and he could just go back to his old life once the Blight was over DESPITE being told repeatedly that once you become a Grey Warden your ties to your old life are severed, it is dangerous, can kill you, and there is no going back.
Like Alistair, Jory had an idealized view of what he thought the Grey Wardens were, and what it meant to be one. He thought it was all about being a good fighter and having honor, and he could just go back to his old life once the Blight was over DESPITE being told repeatedly that once you become a Grey Warden your ties to your old life are severed, it is dangerous, can kill you, and there is no going back.
#83
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 09:58
Heiggwinie
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Jory could have become a Warden and taken his wife to the Warden Tower where she could have used her medieval wifing skills and cleaned the place up.
#84
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 10:08
bas273
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If you sell Jory's sword right before the ritual and leave him disarmed, he has a one-handed blade during the ritual.
But if the Grey Wardens do anything to stop the blight, then why was Jory killed by Duncan? Duncan could've disarmed him and then forced him to drink the blood. It's cruel but if Jory survives he can fight the Darkspawn.
And why doesn't Alistair help Duncan? Jory attacks Duncan and Alistair doesn't even try to help him. Together they could've easily disarmed Jory without harming him.
But if the Grey Wardens do anything to stop the blight, then why was Jory killed by Duncan? Duncan could've disarmed him and then forced him to drink the blood. It's cruel but if Jory survives he can fight the Darkspawn.
And why doesn't Alistair help Duncan? Jory attacks Duncan and Alistair doesn't even try to help him. Together they could've easily disarmed Jory without harming him.
Modifié par bas273, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:08 .
#85
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 10:13
Sabriana
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SarEnyaDor wrote...
Yes, Ser Jory not only volunteered but had to beat a bunch of other people at a tournament for the honor of being given a chance to have a go at the Joining.
Like Alistair, Jory had an idealized view of what he thought the Grey Wardens were, and what it meant to be one. He thought it was all about being a good fighter and having honor, and he could just go back to his old life once the Blight was over DESPITE being told repeatedly that once you become a Grey Warden your ties to your old life are severed, it is dangerous, can kill you, and there is no going back.
That's what really stood out for me, Jory being oblivious to all the warnings. Brawn does not equal brain, and there's more to becoming a Grey Warden than being a good tourney fighter. He keeps going on an on about the honor and glory, and Duncan should have realized that, while having the brawn, Jory had nothing else that would make him warden material.
Daveth on the other hand..., I'm still bummed out that he had to die. I'd so loved to have him as a companion and romance interest.
#86
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 10:42
robertthebard
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Frankly, the man was a coward. The first time we hear of any darkspawn being in the woods, a fact we should have known, since we're there to get blood from them, he's ready to go back to the camp.bas273 wrote...
If you sell Jory's sword right before the ritual and leave him disarmed, he has a one-handed blade during the ritual.
But if the Grey Wardens do anything to stop the blight, then why was Jory killed by Duncan? Duncan could've disarmed him and then forced him to drink the blood. It's cruel but if Jory survives he can fight the Darkspawn.
And why doesn't Alistair help Duncan? Jory attacks Duncan and Alistair doesn't even try to help him. Together they could've easily disarmed Jory without harming him.
#87
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 12:29
Whailor
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The Ritual contains probably a bit more then just the archdemon blood and darkspawn blood. When you spoke with Duncan after you brought to him the vials (damn smart of darkspawn to carry vials of their own blood with them, btw) he said that he had the mages preparing. It's probably nothing too big, considering how Riordian "recruited" Loghain lateron, but still a bit more then just "pour the stuff into a shaker and then shake some". Obvioulsy Grey Wardens as organization keep that "cocktail recipe" to themselves. Taking in just the darkspawn blood or archdemon blood would most likely kill most, and those who would somehow survive would turn into so-called "ghouls".
Obviously Grey Wardens are an organization and have a chain of command. They don't have too many ranks to keep it simple, perhaps, but they have their regional leader (like Duncan in Ferelden or Riordian in Orlais) and then their main headquarters in Weisshaupt Fortress. All of the regions probably periodically report to the headquarters, like with the list of new recruits and current roster. There's probably not too much of other communications going around as the Grey Wardens solely focus on Blight and the darkspawn. They probably have their running orders on keeping the eye on darkspawn activities in their region and report if something is out of order, otherwise I guess the regional leaders have free hands. Riordian has higher "rank" as you in theory but then again, his rank is tied to Orlais and thus he can only advise you, the Ferelden Grey Wardens, also considering that there only are two Grey Wardens left in Ferelden and, as things point out, you're the leader (don't have the official rank but there's no question that you lead and not Alistair) you're in general of equal rank to Riordian. Less experienced in Grey Warden.. ish .. stuff but still the leader. I suppose that once the Blight is gone, you'd receive at some point a "certificate" from Weisshaupt Fortress - or would have to visit it to get it given to you directly - telling that you're the leader officially.
Other then that, Grey Wardens are indeed sort of a mercenary organization, but they operate on their own. They don't follow the orders from any political force and try to stay away from politics as much as possible (with more or less success at times). They're probably only tolerated or/and allowed because the darkspawn are a real threat anywhere and the Blight is also a real threat and it does happen, and obviously every country leadership is happy that the Grey Wardens throw themselves first at the darkspawn and Blights, this way they - hopefully - don't have to mess with them. To common folk Grey Wardens are heroes because in general, in all wars, common folk is the first to suffer and suffers most, to them the Grey Wardens are the ones who come charging in and kick the butt of the darkspawn.
And obviously the Grey Wardens have their own secrets what they keep to themselves. Joining ritual, training and so on. In this game you didn't get to partake in any such things because the Grey Wardens in one region got wiped out and you were just left with your companion, who was also still a pretty fresh Grey Warden. So you figured the things out yourself, what you could. But let's assume that if Duncan and other Wardens would have survived - you would probably have received much more training in many areas. And as an organization they have to protect their knowledge. Even if Jory only knew very little, he still knew something. I am pretty sure that if the world would know what the Joining really entails and what is used to perform it, they'd be pretty scared of Wardens, thinking that they're tainted freaks who just play heroes for some unknown reasons and who, possibly, may turn into darkspawn themselves at any moment. Heck who knows, maybe they're the ones "starting" the Blights so that they could keep their facade up. And it's pretty obvious that Chantry would go crazy and who knows, perhaps even call for an Exalted March against Grey Wardens, drinkers of the darkspawn and what's worse, archdemon blood. Chantry would in no way ever accept that. So Grey Wardens need to keep everything about them secret, thus the severing from previous life, yadda yadda. Ser Jory was warned several times that there's no way back, once you're a Grey Warden you're no more the "Ser Jory" you used to be and you cannot go back to your old life. He however thought that it's just a title, a pat on the shoulder, get a nifty Grey Warden tabard and once the "campaign" is over, he'll go back home and later tell to his grandchildren "Oh yes, I used to be a Grey Warden". He knew it, he ignored it or didn't delve on it and in the end, he was a liability which needed to be removed.
EDIT: whoops, sorry, didn't thin it'll be that long... And of course, all of this is just my speculation obviously
Obviously Grey Wardens are an organization and have a chain of command. They don't have too many ranks to keep it simple, perhaps, but they have their regional leader (like Duncan in Ferelden or Riordian in Orlais) and then their main headquarters in Weisshaupt Fortress. All of the regions probably periodically report to the headquarters, like with the list of new recruits and current roster. There's probably not too much of other communications going around as the Grey Wardens solely focus on Blight and the darkspawn. They probably have their running orders on keeping the eye on darkspawn activities in their region and report if something is out of order, otherwise I guess the regional leaders have free hands. Riordian has higher "rank" as you in theory but then again, his rank is tied to Orlais and thus he can only advise you, the Ferelden Grey Wardens, also considering that there only are two Grey Wardens left in Ferelden and, as things point out, you're the leader (don't have the official rank but there's no question that you lead and not Alistair) you're in general of equal rank to Riordian. Less experienced in Grey Warden.. ish .. stuff but still the leader. I suppose that once the Blight is gone, you'd receive at some point a "certificate" from Weisshaupt Fortress - or would have to visit it to get it given to you directly - telling that you're the leader officially.
Other then that, Grey Wardens are indeed sort of a mercenary organization, but they operate on their own. They don't follow the orders from any political force and try to stay away from politics as much as possible (with more or less success at times). They're probably only tolerated or/and allowed because the darkspawn are a real threat anywhere and the Blight is also a real threat and it does happen, and obviously every country leadership is happy that the Grey Wardens throw themselves first at the darkspawn and Blights, this way they - hopefully - don't have to mess with them. To common folk Grey Wardens are heroes because in general, in all wars, common folk is the first to suffer and suffers most, to them the Grey Wardens are the ones who come charging in and kick the butt of the darkspawn.
And obviously the Grey Wardens have their own secrets what they keep to themselves. Joining ritual, training and so on. In this game you didn't get to partake in any such things because the Grey Wardens in one region got wiped out and you were just left with your companion, who was also still a pretty fresh Grey Warden. So you figured the things out yourself, what you could. But let's assume that if Duncan and other Wardens would have survived - you would probably have received much more training in many areas. And as an organization they have to protect their knowledge. Even if Jory only knew very little, he still knew something. I am pretty sure that if the world would know what the Joining really entails and what is used to perform it, they'd be pretty scared of Wardens, thinking that they're tainted freaks who just play heroes for some unknown reasons and who, possibly, may turn into darkspawn themselves at any moment. Heck who knows, maybe they're the ones "starting" the Blights so that they could keep their facade up. And it's pretty obvious that Chantry would go crazy and who knows, perhaps even call for an Exalted March against Grey Wardens, drinkers of the darkspawn and what's worse, archdemon blood. Chantry would in no way ever accept that. So Grey Wardens need to keep everything about them secret, thus the severing from previous life, yadda yadda. Ser Jory was warned several times that there's no way back, once you're a Grey Warden you're no more the "Ser Jory" you used to be and you cannot go back to your old life. He however thought that it's just a title, a pat on the shoulder, get a nifty Grey Warden tabard and once the "campaign" is over, he'll go back home and later tell to his grandchildren "Oh yes, I used to be a Grey Warden". He knew it, he ignored it or didn't delve on it and in the end, he was a liability which needed to be removed.
EDIT: whoops, sorry, didn't thin it'll be that long... And of course, all of this is just my speculation obviously
Modifié par Whailor, 23 décembre 2009 - 12:30 .
#88
Posté 23 décembre 2009 - 12:50
Indraugnir Caledor
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The comments made by Whailor are very well thought out and quite rational, seems somebody has been eating their brain food or maybe just brains lol.
I agree with many that Ser Jory was basically only concerned with the possible glory from being a Grey Warden and never really understud or bothered to think about what becoming one would mean.
Basically: Ser Jory = Dumb Glory Hound
I agree with many that Ser Jory was basically only concerned with the possible glory from being a Grey Warden and never really understud or bothered to think about what becoming one would mean.
Basically: Ser Jory = Dumb Glory Hound
