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The ultimate quest


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#1
Leifa

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Hello everyone,
 
After 2 completions of the game, as a female, I have come to suspect that there may be more than meets the eye, as far as endings are concerned.
 
A least, I hope so.
 
Indulge me while I explain why, IMHO, the endings don’t make sense…
 
1-     There is too much lore and collectable items – which match that same lore – to accept that the discovered endings, so far, are the only ones possible.
2-     No Grey Warden can be king, or princess, for that matter – for we are unable to procreate. Alistair says that the only Grey Wardens he ever knew of who had children, fathered them before joining. And no matter what anyone says, the Theirin line must continue, and chances are it won’t with Alistair.
3-     Andraste’s ashes cure the Earl. And the miracle cannot be attributed to “one’s faith in the ashes” for the simple reason that Eamon is out cold while the ashes are used on him. And to say that someone else’s faith, in the room, would make the miracle possible is just as viable as saying that the ashes themselves work. Thus, we have to consider that other relics and various items may have the power to change one’s fate.
4-     Alistair does not want to be king. None can argue with that. The reason he loves Duncan so much is that Duncan was the first person who ever cared about what he wanted. Too, there is no good ending for Alistair thus far. If you marry him to the queen, she resents him. If you make him a single king, he’s miserable. And if he dies… well that just royally sucks (for lack of a better expression:unsure:) – and though it is quite an admirable and honourable death, the fact that a female can’t take the bullet for him in the end means that there has to be more to it. Yes it was an unforgettable moment when I finished the game the first time – I didn’t even loot anything in the tower for I knew that one of us would die – but when he refused to let me sacrifice myself, that was … very sad.
5-     All of the rumours and information relating to the Queen’s inability to have children, King Cailan’s infidelities, and the argument between Loghain and Cailan before the battle must be there for a reason. Is Iona’s daughter Cailan’s illegitimate child? Is that why Loghain lashes out against the Elves, and why, when Anora is made queen, years later, there is still unrest with the Elves?
 
I could go on like this for a very long time – there are so many reasons (dialogues/lore/items/story) to suspect that other endings are not only possible, but logical –, still I will try and keep this short-ish.
 
The thing is I can’t accept that the “Makers” at BioWare, would go through so much trouble to conceive this wonderful, emotionally-packed story, include all of this lore and matching items, only to deny a hero’s ending to those with the fortitude to follow it all through.
 
So I have started a “holy” character, who follows Andraste’s teachings, in the hopes that, doing the right thing all the time – even letting cutthroats highwaymen live by showing mercy – and amassing the right relics will open a worthy ending. I suspect that Andraste’s statue in the royal place, at the end, may have something to do with this… (That is, I hope.)
 
If only I could sit and talk with Brother Genitivy for hours…
Or with Avernus, for that matter.
 
Speaking of Avernus, he whines that he can’t continue his experiments without more materials or subjects and he didn’t even want my dragon blood when I brought it to him, and I had lyrium too, and bodies I kept in body bags instead of throwing them down the well… and a bunch of other items. (Yes, I’m desperate)
 
I thought it might work too, for when I take the dragon blood from the cultists, Alistair is against it at first, then he says something along the lines of: “I hope you have something extraordinary and very sneaky in mind!”
 
Anyways, I refuse to abandon my quest to find a better, worthy, ending, so I will re-read all the books and try and find all of the items linked to Andraste’s story, and see if that makes a difference in the end.
 
Furthermore, I will continue to look for another heir to the throne.
Must… save… Alistair!
 
The worthy ending should involve Alistair, and our own character, as the building blocks for the future of the Grey Warden’s order in Weusshaupt, and Cailan’s illegitimate child on the throne, with Eamon as regent.
 
I mean, who actually enjoyed seeing William, in Braveheart, being massacred in the end? Yes it was an epic story – the parts of it which were actually historically correct – but what was truly epic was not how he died, but how he lived.
 
Honestly – and I say this with great respect for all the work which was done in creating this amazing game – if there is no way to find a hero’s end, without the main characters dying or facing a miserable future, then what a waste of lore all of that would be.
 
Of course – if none exist – a “good ending” Addon could rectify this. I, as others I’m sure, wouldn’t mind paying for it, as the immersion level of Dragon Age: Origins is beyond compare. And the possibilities, with all of the lore and items involved in this game, are endless.
 
If you made it this far, thank you for reading :) 
Sincerely,
Leifa
 
PS: To all users: If these ideas have all been addressed in prior posts, please forgive me as I am new here.
 
PSS: To the Makers: If there is the smallest hope to be had with the current content, would someone from BioWare just give me a little nudge please? :blush:

#2
Maconbar

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I would argue that a story where none of the main characters has to pay a price and they all live happily ever after is better suited for Hello Kitty.



Personally I would like to see the end of the direct Theiren line. For all of its historic significance recently they don't appear to be terrific rulers. For example Maric abandons Ferelden to enter the Deep Roads. Maric's grandfather loses his crown.

#3
SarEnyaDor

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That is not technically true.  **Spoilers ahead**

edited to add-> I tried changing the font color, but it just won't take! grrrrr




You CAN sacrifice yourself, you just have to leave Alistair with the group to defend the gates, and then if he is king he gives a very nice funeral speech for you....

Many people think you *have* to take him with you, but if that was true he would be in party, greyed out. Your party selection is completely up to you. Riordon justs *suggests* you take him for a greater chance of one of you actually making it.

You can also go off and rebuild the Grey Wardens if you want by making the Dark Ritual with Morrigan and have Alistair not be king.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 22 décembre 2009 - 01:31 .


#4
Original182

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Well maybe the reason why the writers wrote it to have loose ends, is because they plan to flesh them out in the form of DLC packs over 2 years.

I also like happy endings. They should create a DLC that allows you to explore a different ending. By making it possible to have a different ending from a DLC, it increases the replay value.

#5
MKATAKM

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I have discussed this issue in another forum which was in fact about something else completely unrelated. But the flow of the subject somehow came to that in some point. However here is the correct place for my case, and I see there are other people who thinks like me in this regard, such as Leifa who has opened this subject, thanks to him/her. So I have carried some of my issues from there to here.

In my opinion, the more your actions effect the outcome, the better an RPG is.
I checked the definition from several resources, and I found a good one at Wiki:
"A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters.Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players have the freedom to improvise; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the game."

Again IMO, a good RPG does not put a couple of goals in front of the player to achieve, but enables the player to have his/her own goals to achieve. To be able to do that, the game should have much richer possibilities for the end. In this sense, DA:O cannot be considered as a good one having very few options at the end. Some may find it enough, for me, it is not.

Apperantly there are 5 different endings:

----- Darkspawn is defeated
---------- Anora becomes Queen:
--------------- 1) You are a consort
--------------- 2) You are not a consort
---------- Alistair becomes King:
--------------- 3) You are a consort
--------------- 4) You are not a consort
--------------- 5) Anore is Queen

You see, 5 sub-outcomes are in fact grouped under 2 major outcomes, and it does not matter whether you become an ineffective consort or not. Those two major outcomes are further merged to one in the end, resulting only the defeat of the darkspawn. And none of them makes me feel satisfied. Maybe the problem is here. People want to be king/queen themselves after working so hard. Who sacrifies himself, or whether you go with Morrigan's ritual or not just changes a paragraph or two in one of the ending slides, and that does not make you feel as if you did something significant.

The possible outcomes could be made richer without too much extra content and other resources. You could be the new King, you could marry to Leliana making her your Queen, not that ugly consort sort :) You could use your cunning to persuade Anora to accept you as a King. You could be a darkspawn general after pouring dragon blood over ashes. Or your soul could merge with the soul of the dragon god after a special ritual with Morrigan, and become a darkspawn King over Ferelden. The possibilities are much richer. I am just thinking about how to make an already great game, greater :) The reason was, whatever I did during the 50+ hours of gameplay, I felt they all were insignificant (or not significant enough) at the end. The logical arguments aside, it is the most important thing how you feel at the end, and for me, it was insignificance.

Then maybe my definition of RPG is wrong. If, by definition, an RPG puts one or more goals for you to achieve, then this game is a good RPG, and I am wrong from the beginning, and want a diffferent type of game, wrongly calling it RPG ?

Modifié par MKATAKM, 22 décembre 2009 - 01:46 .


#6
Mich-cz

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As far as I know, you don't have to make alistair a king in the end, you can simply go away with him side by side with Anora on the throne, if you play woman. Wouldn't that be the happy end for you? Also, the final sacrifice can be made by Loghain - you can have both of them in your party if Alistair was hardened before, during his character quest.



There are many good endings and also many bad ones. It really depends on your point of view if you see something bad or good. And rememeber, there are expansions coming, there are DLCs coming... some storylines had to be kept open for upcoming sequels.

#7
SarEnyaDor

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Mich-cz wrote...

 Also, the final sacrifice can be made by Loghain - you can have both of them in your party if Alistair was hardened before, during his character quest.


Not true. If you spare Loghain you lose Alistair as a party member. Period. Hardened or not, he doesn't travel with you.

What happens to him can vary depending on your other choices.

#8
Leifa

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Maconbar wrote...

I would argue that a story where none of the main characters has to pay a price and they all live happily ever after is better suited for Hello Kitty.


Sorry, but just think of the last Halo; it ends with Master Chief and Cortana lost in space - great ending - they are alive and together. There are many more like this.


Personally I would like to see the end of the direct Theiren line. For all of its historic significance recently they don't appear to be terrific rulers. For example Maric abandons Ferelden to enter the Deep Roads. Maric's grandfather loses his crown.


And you think that Anora, who obviously can't have children, married to a Grey Warden, who has next to no chance of procreating, is better?
The Theirin men may not always be as firm and wise as one would wish, but they have much heart to make up for it and bring peace to their people. That, IMO, is the very definition of a good king.

#9
Leifa

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You CAN sacrifice yourself, you just have to leave Alistair with the group to defend the gates, and then if he is king he gives a very nice funeral speech for you....


How romantic, and he spends the rest of his life miserable, once more having to do what others have chosen for him? ... not a great ending, imo.:unsure:

 

You can also go off and rebuild the Grey Wardens if you want by making the Dark Ritual with Morrigan and have Alistair not be king.


Lol, even Loghain refuses to make that deal with Morrigan, by principal - and if he will not lower himself thus, I can't imagine my hero doing it. And yes I've done it, of course - but the end just didn't feel right, I felt dirty.

We're suppose to have honor, courage and principals, and live by them. That's the very definition of a hero, and the whole Morrigan thingy just goes against that. Meh, that's my opinion in any case. :)

#10
SarEnyaDor

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Who ever said you were a hero?



You are a victim of circumstance, who happened to be in wrong place at the wrong time and got caught up in events beyond your control. Grey Wardens aren't heroes in the traditional sense of the word, they are like mob cleaners - do whatever it takes to get the job done.



Alistair has a romantic idealized version of what being a Grey Warden is in his head, and you can certainly BE a hero, but just being a Grey Warden isn't heroic.



You swear no vows, make no oaths, and aren't asked to believe in any ideals at all - the only thing that is required is to survive drinking the tainted blood and then *poof* you are a fabled grey Warden.



Everything after that is your choice.



I, personally, play the heroic part typically. But that is MY choice, not at all required.

#11
Leifa

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Original182 wrote...

Well maybe the reason why the writers wrote it to have loose ends, is because they plan to flesh them out in the form of DLC packs over 2 years.

I also like happy endings. They should create a DLC that allows you to explore a different ending. By making it possible to have a different ending from a DLC, it increases the replay value.


Absolutely, and there is so much lore to use too. The possibilities for replay value with this game are amazing - which is why it would be nice to have deeper, perhaps harder to achieve, good endings.
I don't mind working for it -- it's suppose to be hard to save the world and have a happy ending. All I hope for is that we be given the chance to make it happen Posted Image

Of course, there is always the posibility that it does exist, and that we've just not found it yet...

#12
TrinityDivine

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Original182 wrote...

Well maybe the reason why the writers wrote it to have loose ends, is because they plan to flesh them out in the form of DLC packs over 2 years.

I also like happy endings. They should create a DLC that allows you to explore a different ending. By making it possible to have a different ending from a DLC, it increases the replay value.


I agree and I would like to add that it's not just DLC's released by Bioware but also add-ins and new campaigns developed by fans using the toolkit. That's the beauty of its open-endedness - you can go in and create your own story, continue the story, or even tweak it! It alows the modders to be really creative and gives them a lot of leeway.

#13
Leifa

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MKATAKM wrote...

I have discussed this issue in another forum which was in fact about something else completely unrelated. But the flow of the subject somehow came to that in some point. However here is the correct place for my case, and I see there are other people who thinks like me in this regard, such as Leifa who has opened this subject, thanks to him/her. So I have carried some of my issues from there to here.



It's "her", and no need to thank me -- I just had to do it. Posted Image

Like you, I'm just as glad to see that others feel this way.

And it is hardly surprising. This game is wonderful. It goes beyond the fun of building stats and gathering armor that other games offer. It's rare that everything comes together with such perfection, but DA:Origins is such a rare gem.

It's a shame that everytime I'm nearing the end, I have this feeling that I am doomed and that everything I have worked for is for naught. Sure the Darkspawns have been defeated -- woohoo! -- but how wonderful is that when everything you've come to care about crumbles around you?

In any case, I keep hope; because if there's one thing I am sure of, it's that the Makers at BioWare are clever and good-hearted - one only needs to play the game to know this. And so perhaps, if our chant is heard in the four corners of the world, the Makers will grant us our wish. Posted Image

#14
Leifa

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Mich-cz wrote...

As far as I know, you don't have to make alistair a king in the end, you can simply go away with him side by side with Anora on the throne, if you play woman. Wouldn't that be the happy end for you?.

 
No, it would not make me happy to know that a ruthless, self-serving woman -- who has treated the last king like dirt and can't even have children -- is the ruler of those I have worked so hard to save from the Darkspawns.
Anora may have court manners, but make no mistake, she is her father's daughter and will sacrifice anyone to get what she wants. Just look at how the Elves suffer under her rule.

For the second part of your reply, well I think SarEnyaDor has made a great job of answering that.

There are many good endings and also many bad ones. It really depends on your point of view if you see something bad or good. And rememeber, there are expansions coming, there are DLCs coming... some storylines had to be kept open for upcoming sequels.


I'm sorry, but no matter how you look at it, there are not "many good endings" -- not even one -- which was the very point of my post. Posted Image Unless you consider dying, or having someone you care about dying, or cursing a child before it's even born, a good thing...

But yes, I do have high hopes for future Addons and expansions - I just would like a good ending to this story Posted Image

#15
Leifa

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SarEnyaDor wrote...

Who ever said you were a hero?


I did:blush:

But seriously, what does a hero do?
 
He/she goes around risking his/her life to save people, no matter what it takes.

What more can I say... You either assume the role of the hero, or go around killing everyone as an evil/chaotic character - but if you are to act according to Duncan's wishes, you will be worthy of your place and honor the Grey Wardens by saving as may people as you possibly can. 

So yeah... to answer your question, I guess Duncan did say that we had to be heroes, albeit not in so many words.Posted Image 

#16
SarEnyaDor

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Self-preservation and seeking personal fulfillment in the love department are also right up there with heroic ideals, because we all know that heroes who run into burning buildings to rescue strangers get to live happily ever after, too.......

#17
Leifa

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I would like to add that it's not just DLC's released by Bioware but also add-ins and new campaigns developed by fans using the toolkit. That's the beauty of its open-endedness - you can go in and create your own story, continue the story, or even tweak it! It alows the modders to be really creative and gives them a lot of leeway.


True, but I would be affraid that the mods (story wise) would interfere with BioWare's work.

Don't get me wrong, I encourage and applaud any artist who would do such mods. But I'm just concerned about it conflicting with any changes BioWare may do in future Addons. Creating your own stories and doing expansions is nice, but the tweaking of the existing story outside of BioWare's control would worry me a bit.

Then again, I don't know much about the technical side of modding -- writing is more my thing Posted Image

#18
Maconbar

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Leifa wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

I would argue that a story where none of the main characters has to pay a price and they all live happily ever after is better suited for Hello Kitty.


Sorry, but just think of the last Halo; it ends with Master Chief and Cortana lost in space - great ending - they are alive and together. There are many more like this.



Personally I would like to see the end of the direct Theiren line. For all of its historic significance recently they don't appear to be terrific rulers. For example Maric abandons Ferelden to enter the Deep Roads. Maric's grandfather loses his crown.


And you think that Anora, who obviously can't have children, married to a Grey Warden, who has next to no chance of procreating, is better?
The Theirin men may not always be as firm and wise as one would wish, but they have much heart to make up for it and bring peace to their people. That, IMO, is the very definition of a good king.


Actually I think that both Anora and Alistair are poor choices. Anora for the very important reason that you mention and Alistair partially because that royal line is weak and he is a grey warden, therefore, not likely to have children. Either option makes it likely that the direct line will fail.

#19
Original182

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The Theirin bloodline is enough reason to put Alistair on the throne. It is a reminder to Ferelden of Calenhad Theirin, who united a group of squabbling clans into the Ferelden that we know today. If it wasn't for the Theirin, Ferelden wouldn't exist.

In recent memory, it was Maric Theirin who drove the Orlesians out, regaining independence for Ferelden.

The Theirin bloodline must continue if possible. It's a powerful symbol, that has moved me to ensure Alistair takes the throne whether he likes it or not. I would be there to support him as friend.

#20
Leifa

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SarEnyaDor wrote...

Self-preservation and seeking personal fulfillment in the love department are also right up there with heroic ideals, because we all know that heroes who run into burning buildings to rescue strangers get to live happily ever after, too.......


In "The Incredibles" they do! ;)

Honestly, it's not as much about me as it is about the story and its characters.
Sure, I responded to Alistair, who didn't?
But I genuinely care about what happens to the characters and the people I work to protect.

I don't mind dying if it means that all will be well - but that is not the case: Alistair is miserable in the end, unless I make the deal with Morrigan and rule with him. And that is wrong on so many levels... Have Alistair, who's had a hard life of being a bastard, father a bastard? Worse, have him father a bastard who will be cursed and then brought up by Morrigan?

The people deserve a good ruler, and my companions deserve to get what they want after all they've given.
 
Anyways, that's the way I see it.Posted Image

#21
SarEnyaDor

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I prefer to keep him soft, make Anora queen and go rebuild the Wardens as my happy ending, but my true ending is where I am dead, and my love rules wisely remembering how awesome I was and being a kick-ass king to live up to the ideal I set for him. Seriously, it is the happiest ending for the world at large, I am convinced me and the other 4 Grey Wardens who ended the Blights will be resurrected when the Maker comes home to light the hearth fires ala the Tevinter statue... Maybe it is a dream, but it is a good dream.

#22
Leifa

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Actually I think that both Anora and Alistair are poor choices. Anora for the very important reason that you mention and Alistair partially because that royal line is weak and he is a grey warden, therefore, not likely to have children. Either option makes it likely that the direct line will fail.



Having a good heart can easily be confused with being weak; but Alistair is not weak, I assure you. Just look at how he reassures Sir Jory in the beginning, or how he leads the army in the end. It's that kind of attitude that wins the heart of the people and gives them the courage to face what may come.

And as to the continuation of the Theirin line, that's what Cailan's illegitimate child is/woud be there for... Well, that would work, wouldn't it? Or just make Eamon's brother king: Eamon's influence will win out on the people and that man is young; all he needs is a nice wife and voilà! Posted Image

#23
Maconbar

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Original182 wrote...

The Theirin bloodline is enough reason to put Alistair on the throne. It is a reminder to Ferelden of Calenhad Theirin, who united a group of squabbling clans into the Ferelden that we know today. If it wasn't for the Theirin, Ferelden wouldn't exist.

In recent memory, it was Maric Theirin who drove the Orlesians out, regaining independence for Ferelden.

The Theirin bloodline must continue if possible. It's a powerful symbol, that has moved me to ensure Alistair takes the throne whether he likes it or not. I would be there to support him as friend.


Even if you put Alistair on the throne how likely is it that he will produce an heir? So again Ferelden will be confronted with a succession crisis and the failure of the direct royal line. If the crown is granted to a relative then the line of Calenhad can be continued, presumably with someone more likely to provide an heir.

#24
Original182

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Maconbar wrote...
Even if you put Alistair on the throne how likely is it that he will produce an heir? So again Ferelden will be confronted with a succession crisis and the failure of the direct royal line. If the crown is granted to a relative then the line of Calenhad can be continued, presumably with someone more likely to provide an heir.


Alistair can have heirs if he has them with a non-Grey-Warden woman. It is low, but it is very possible. He would just have to keep trying.

Alistair can never have children naturally if he tries to have them with a Grey-Warden woman.

So in my scenario, it is possible for Alistair to have a heir. The heir will also be free of the taint.

My sources are from the Lead Writer, David Gaider himself.

#25
Maconbar

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Leifa wrote...

Actually I think that both Anora and Alistair are poor choices. Anora for the very important reason that you mention and Alistair partially because that royal line is weak and he is a grey warden, therefore, not likely to have children. Either option makes it likely that the direct line will fail.



Having a good heart can easily be confused with being weak; but Alistair is not weak, I assure you. Just look at how he reassures Sir Jory in the beginning, or how he leads the army in the end. It's that kind of attitude that wins the heart of the people and gives them the courage to face what may come.

And as to the continuation of the Theirin line, that's what Cailan's illegitimate child is/woud be there for... Well, that would work, wouldn't it? Or just make Eamon's brother king: Eamon's influence will win out on the people and that man is young; all he needs is a nice wife and voilà! Posted Image


I think that the Teagan could be an effective candidate for king. If he can trace his lineage to Calenhad, all the better.