184 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Yes it's that time where TAO attempts to make sense of shoddy writing once again.

The Crucible - or rather, the Citadel, since I also submit that the functions attributed to the Crucible are and always have been the Citadel's - fires Destroy and Synthesis in exactly the same way.
Yet, they are activated very differently. In fact, Destroy is activated counter-intuitively, by breaking a component. Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

I therefore submit the following, which is extrapolation based on in game evidence:

- The Citadel's primary function is synthesis, as designed by the Catalyst.

- Destroy works by breaking a primary component (the inanimate tube of doom) and causing the Citadel to malfunction and trigger an effect that wipes out synthetics. The Crucible then explodes due to generating more power than the effect actually needs (because less space magic is involved I guess) and overloading.

- Control doesn't use the Crucible at all. The Crucible is a power source, designed to provide the Citadel with the energy it requires to spread Synthesis across the galaxy. Control requires no extra power because the Catalyst already controls. The Citadel is already providing power for this. All you're doing is installing a new OS and sending a software update to all Reapers. I come to this conclusion because the Citadel does not fire a beam in Control. The wave itself handles everything.

EDIT: Actually, upon remembering the control scene, the Crucible is clearly being interacted with, therefore I amend this to Control requiring little of the Crucible's power, perhaps to spread the "software patch" to the Reapers. However the fact remains that the Citadel clearly isn't using the same amount of power as in Destroy/Synthesis.

- Synthesis, like Destroy, clearly needs both the Citadel and Crucible to function. Like Destroy, the Citadel fires the beam and suffers damage to the wards in the same way. However, unlike Destroy it's not activated by breaking something, but rather by interacting with the rather prominently displayed and accessable beam.
Think of the terms being used here. Crucible. Synthesis. Catalyst. Get it? 

The entire point of the Crucible is to provide the necesarry power for the Citadel to perform it's intended function - synthesis. The Catalyst is possibly ambivalent about finally reaching this point and so reveals the chance to break it. But that's the thing. Destroy is breaking it. It's not working as intended.

Modifié par The Angry One, 15 août 2012 - 11:41 .

[AresKeith]

You said much better than I could have, it also explains why the Reapers built the Citadel other than to make more Reapers

also yay for using part of my comment for Destroy lol

[F4H bandicoot]

Makes sense.

[Lonsecia]

It makes more sense than most explanations/theories I've seen, which is kinda depressing in a way.

Was it really that hard to go with something that didn't feel like it was a desperate magician trying to impress his audience with 'one last mind-blowing trick'? Sadly, we were already aware of the wires, and so the attempt to bedazzle only leads to derision. Sure there are some taken in by the showmanship, but the rest of us know the truth.

And no, that's not a pop at some magician that stole my innocent belief in magic. Damn you, David Copperfield!

[AresKeith]

I don't know why they didn't just keep things simple and similar to the first two games

[Terminus Echoes]

Wow, never thought of that. I never really considered the ways in which the different functions were activated (just a bunch of space magic I thought).

But wait... then the Crucible makes no sense.

It was designed to stop the Reapers... by merging Synthetic and Organic life together? That's like if in WWII we stopped the Germans by conceding defeat and undergoing gene replacement to become part of the "Aryan race". Giving in to the enemy's ideals, that ideal being that Synthesis is the ultimate form of life.

Modifié par Terminus Echoes, 15 août 2012 - 11:40 .

[The Angry One]

Made a quick amendment about Control.

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Wow, never thought of that. I never really considered the ways in which the different functions were activated (just a bunch of space magic I thought).

But wait... then the Crucible makes no sense.

It was designed to stop the Reapers... by merging Synthetic and Organic life together? That's like if in WWII we stopped the Germans by conceding defeat and undergoing gene replacement to become part of the "Aryan race". Giving in to the enemy's ideals, that ideal being that Synthesis is the ultimate form of life.

My theory is that the Crucible, or at least the basics of it was designed by the Catalyst, and the organics were lead to believe it would stop the Reapers. Hence why it's always preserved each cycle, because the Reapers allow it to be.
The reason for this is, I'm reasoning, because the Reapers require a power source efficient enough to spread synthesis across the galaxy, but are stagnant and can't develop, therefore they guide civilisations and intend them to eventually innovate one that will work.

Modifié par The Angry One, 15 août 2012 - 11:46 .

[AresKeith]

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Wow, never thought of that. I never really considered the ways in which the different functions were activated (just a bunch of space magic I thought).

But wait... then the Crucible makes no sense.

It was designed to stop the Reapers... by merging Synthetic and Organic life together? That's like if in WWII we stopped the Germans by conceding defeat and undergoing gene replacement to become part of the "Aryan race". Giving in to the enemy's ideals, that ideal being that Synthesis is the ultimate form of life.

but who's to say it was really suppose to stop the Reapers since there still there in Synthesis. And since the Crucible gives power for Synthesis, that would mean that the Catalyst originally started the plans

[The Twilight God]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes it's that time where TAO attempts to make sense of shoddy writing once again.

The Crucible - or rather, the Citadel, since I also submit that the functions attributed to the Crucible are and always have been the Citadel's - fires Destroy and Synthesis in exactly the same way.
Yet, they are activated very differently. In fact, Destroy is activated counter-intuitively, by breaking a component. Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

I therefore submit the following, which is extrapolation based on in game evidence:

- The Citadel's primary function is synthesis, as designed by the Catalyst.

- Destroy works by breaking a primary component (the inanimate tube of doom) and causing the Citadel to malfunction and trigger an effect that wipes out synthetics. The Crucible then explodes due to generating more power than the effect actually needs (because less space magic is involved I guess) and overloading.

- Control doesn't use the Crucible at all. The Crucible is a power source, designed to provide the Citadel with the energy it requires to spread Synthesis across the galaxy. Control requires no extra power because the Catalyst already controls. The Citadel is already providing power for this. All you're doing is installing a new OS and sending a software update to all Reapers. I come to this conclusion because the Citadel does not fire a beam in Control. The wave itself handles everything.

- Synthesis, like Destroy, clearly needs both the Citadel and Crucible to function. Like Destroy, the Citadel fires the beam and suffers damage to the wards in the same way. However, unlike Destroy it's not activated by breaking something, but rather by interacting with the rather prominently displayed and accessable beam.
Think of the terms being used here. Crucible. Synthesis. Catalyst. Get it? 

The entire point of the Crucible is to provide the necesarry power for the Citadel to perform it's intended function - synthesis. The Catalyst is possibly ambivalent about finally reaching this point and so reveals the chance to break it. But that's the thing. Destroy is breaking it. It's not working as intended.

I like my idea better. 

The main flaw is your assertion that the contraption at eye level is part of the Crucible when it's clearly part of the Citadel.

The Twilight God wrote...

First things first. We need to get one thing straight: The contraptions at eye level are NOT part of the Crucible. Look at the Crucible docking tip (up it to 720p and full screen it). Notice that the Crucible tip is above you. The Presidium is around you. The Crucible docking clamps are clamped to the Presidium. Check out the flycam. Everything at eye level is built into the Citadel.

When you initiate destroy you aren't breaking the Crucible. You're breaking something on the Citadel that is not part of the Crucible. It can be inferred that blowing up that conduit junction disables something that is keeping the Crucible from firing. And therefore it is the Destroy option that is only true function of the Crucible.

[Taboo]

I'm unsure what this accomplishes. He still presents all three as solutions. All three are better than his, which is in actuality isn't a solution.

I'm unsure what you're trying to prove, other than he's a sack of fallacious nonsense.

There are steps that can be taken to avoid things. I see no reason to not seek an optimal solution to the problem.

But not through Synthesis.

[The Angry One]

The Twilight God wrote...

The main flaw is your assertion that the contraption at eye level is part of the Crucible when it's clearly part of the Citadel.

No, that's why I said that the Citadel is what's performing the function. The Crucible is just a gigantic battery. It has no functions by itself.

When you initiate destroy you aren't breaking the Crucible. You're breaking something on the Citadel that is not part of the Crucible. It can be inferred that blowing up that conduit junction disables something that is keeping the Crucible from firing. And therefore it is the Destroy option that is only true function of the Crucible.

My theory reasons that you're breaking a connection between the Crucible and the Citadel, a power regulator of some sort. Something that's required for the Citadel's effect to function properly. By breaking it you're releasing the synthesis wave prematurely, uncontrolled and without the organic/synthetic template.

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm unsure what this accomplishes. He
still presents all three as solutions. All three are better than his,
which is in actuality isn't a solution.

I'm unsure what you're trying to prove, other than he's a sack of fallacious nonsense.

There are steps that can be taken to avoid things. I see no reason to not seek an optimal solution to the problem.

But not through Synthesis.

I'm not trying to prove anything, actually. Just trying to make sense of the nature of the Crucible/Citadel combo, it's origins and how it works.

Modifié par The Angry One, 15 août 2012 - 11:50 .

[Lonsecia]

The Angry One wrote...

Made a quick amendment about Control.

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Wow, never thought of that. I never really considered the ways in which the different functions were activated (just a bunch of space magic I thought).

But wait... then the Crucible makes no sense.

It was designed to stop the Reapers... by merging Synthetic and Organic life together? That's like if in WWII we stopped the Germans by conceding defeat and undergoing gene replacement to become part of the "Aryan race". Giving in to the enemy's ideals, that ideal being that Synthesis is the ultimate form of life.

My theory is that the Crucible, or at least the basics of it was designed by the Catalyst, and the organics were lead to believe it would stop the Reapers. Hence why it's always preserved each cycle, because the Reapers allow it to be.
The reason for this is, I'm reasoing, because the Reapers require a power source efficient enough to spread synthesis across the galaxy, but are stagnant and can't develop, therefore they guide civilisations and intend them to eventually innovate one that will work.

Something else as well about this. What if the plans were only discovered at the eleventh hour purely to prevent enough research into it. 

Imagining your theory is correct, then it stands to reason that though they want us to find the plans, they won't want us having access to them long enough that we might figure out what'll happen once it's in place. Likewise if the galaxy's races load it into the Citadel and have a lot of time to think on all the information available, the scientists would have perhaps stumbled on the truth. Instead it's a last-minute dash to install it, and the only person there that can finalise the process has to do so to the backdrop of a war we're told we can't possibly win otherwise. 
With all that in mind, it seems to me that it's all a very purposeful propaganda plot.

Modifié par Lonsecia, 15 août 2012 - 11:52 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Twilight God wrote...

The main flaw is your assertion that the contraption at eye level is part of the Crucible when it's clearly part of the Citadel.

Nah. I used to think that as well. However, if you look closely at the docking process you see a "small" device held by arms on the Crucible. That device are the three platforms in a retracted state. It disappears just after docking. It suggests that the three platforms are dropped onto the Citadel.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 16 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[AresKeith]

I wish they would have just did this with the Crucible:

Make the Crucible weaken all the Reapers like how Sovereign was in ME1, by lowering their barrier and weakening their mass, and allow the Victory Fleet to launch a final attack. The outcome of that battle would be based off of your EMS and past choices, where you can both win or lose in the Final Battle

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

[OdanUrr]

Intriguing proposition. I'd toyed with the idea a while back that the Catalyst had been researching ways to pull off Synthesis and may have arrived at some crude version of the Crucible, even if only in theory (not actual construction). Other civilizations could have then found, repurposed and modified the device.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 15 août 2012 - 11:56 .

[Terminus Echoes]

The Angry One wrote...

Made a quick amendment about Control.

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Wow, never thought of that. I never really considered the ways in which the different functions were activated (just a bunch of space magic I thought).

But wait... then the Crucible makes no sense.

It was designed to stop the Reapers... by merging Synthetic and Organic life together? That's like if in WWII we stopped the Germans by conceding defeat and undergoing gene replacement to become part of the "Aryan race". Giving in to the enemy's ideals, that ideal being that Synthesis is the ultimate form of life.

My theory is that the Crucible, or at least the basics of it was designed by the Catalyst, and the organics were lead to believe it would stop the Reapers. Hence why it's always preserved each cycle, because the Reapers allow it to be.
The reason for this is, I'm reasoning, because the Reapers require a power source efficient enough to spread synthesis across the galaxy, but are stagnant and can't develop, therefore they guide civilisations and intend them to eventually innovate one that will work.

I suppose. Although I'm going off of what Vendetta said, where it was initially developed by one cycle and then improved upon, but then again... speculation.

On the WWII point, this is weird. A horrific amount of genocide just to achieve the "perfect form of life"...

...yeah, Starchild is now intergalactic Hitler.

Modifié par Terminus Echoes, 16 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

So why do we need the Citadel? If that was the case, we could just use a smaller version in every system.
Or we could've tested it.

Oh, we didn't, because all the functions are part of the Citadel and the Crucible is "little more than a battery".

[Wayning_Star]

crucible is a big battery/power supply to power the proaction after the decisions, other than the refuse that only requires the cycle to continue. All other decisions have the beam that damages/maybe destroys the relays. The beacon hid away on thessia, and Prothean AI stated that its all connected and the crucible is the key, the citadel, containing the catalyst are the lockbox.

The actions on the citadel with Shep and the choices are all merely theatric, as Shep doesn't actually interface physically with any of it, even the trip to the citadel is done via mental connection and are purely symbolic.

That's why you got a big 'conduit' for destroy, a large open connection for control and the big shiney beam for sythesis...and all the time Shepard is on the ground in England counting his bones, subjectively. All the decisions are basically done via a com link with the Catalyst. The whole thing was just exported from the Catalyst, imported into Earthbound Shepard. He was chosen to be the first organic to ever commune directly with the Catalyst, only because the crucible was in evidence for the Reapers. Just like it had been through out the pattern.

I think the crucible could be detonated this time as well, bringing the entire MEU falling down around the reapers and life as known, thus eliminating the reapers as well, but more importantly to the Catalyst, interupting it's core program to stop chaos.

As surely some organics would survive, as well as some at least sentient synthetic life forms, insuring the continued cycle and chaos. Something provided the Catalyst with the option to give audience to Shepard. Some variable forces it to comply.

[The Angry One]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

Which somehow assumes that this object morphs into something else, despite us not seeing it instead of plugging neatly into the hole in front of us, and failing to notice that it's not in the correct position to have the control devices on it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 août 2012 - 12:02 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

So why do we need the Citadel? If that was the case, we could just use a smaller version in every system.
Or we could've tested it.

Oh, we didn't, because all the functions are part of the Citadel and the Crucible is "little more than a battery".

like totally cooool gizmo pics!!

the functions are part of the "Catalyst" who is the Citadel, that is it's main computer hub.. but, the 'new optional update codes' for that computer that directs the choices and the Shepard/organics interface are within the crucible. Nothing new can happen without the crucible.

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
like totally cooool gizmo pics!!

the functions are part of the "Catalyst" who is the Citadel, that is it's main computer hub.. but, the 'new optional update codes' for that computer that directs the choices and the Shepard/organics interface are within the crucible. Nothing new can happen without the crucible.

How does one update something you do not know exists?

[Bill Casey]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

So why do we need the Citadel?

It enhances dark energy transmissions, and coordinates the mass relay network...
The Prothean VI tells you this...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 16 août 2012 - 12:08 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!


*snip*

So why do we need the Citadel? If that was the case, we could just use a smaller version in every system.
Or we could've tested it.

Oh, we didn't, because all the functions are part of the Citadel and the Crucible is "little more than a battery".

Because you would need some sort of catalyst to start the reaction to make it fire.

And, the nubbin unfolded to take the shape that it does.

[BigBadMammogram]

Bill Casey wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

So why do we need the Citadel?

It enhances dark energy transmissions, and coordinates the mass relay network...
The Prothean VI tells you this...

But the reapers dont use it to shut down the relay network. That would have screwed the galaxy over, and the reapers probably would have won...