184 réponses à ce sujet

[zambot]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The question I have is that while it may be true that the Citadel and Crucible are meant to do synthesis, is that really what the Catalyst wants? As shown in low-EMS endings, reapers are shown making passes and attacking the Crucible, and even the Catalyst said that the Crucible is damaged. If he truly wants synthesis and only wants to pretend that the reapers don't want the Crucible to dock, then why not just fire non-lethal projectiles? Even with a damaged Crucible, the Catalyst will still present to you the only option of Destroy instead of saving his skin and hoping the next cycle can protect the Crucible better. And he will get mad at you if you refuse. In short, what the hell does the Catalyst exactly want?

Also, if you wait too long, the Crucible is destroyed. What does that mean?

I think it is clear the one thing the Catalyst does NOT want is Refuse.  Which is odd considering that he is the self-proclaimed reaper king, and refuse insures their victory.  One can infer from that that spacekid wants the cycle to be ended, now, by Shepard.

[MattFini]

Good point, Jeff.

Never thought of that, but it fits.

[JeffZero]

Thanks.

I think it fits all the more so since sub-3000 EMS (or whatever it is now) Synthesis isn't even presented. "There is another solution" is never spoken, so the warped AI is just like, "*snort* There really isn't, but whatever, you're here already and the Crucible did [insert gibberish here] to my systems, so I'll just give you these other options, please hurry up and do something, I'm tired and you're annoying."

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Why not? You're arguing Destroy is unintended because the Crucible is destroyed in some scenarios and not others when it would be preferable for it not to be destroyed. I provided an example of a technology we all understand that is destroyed in some scenarios and not others when it would be preferable for it not to be destroyed. Yet it's clearly working exactly as designed and intended.

Because how does shooting a Power Conduit which is giving power to something work as a kill switch to all Synthetics, that doesn't make sense unless it causes Synthesis to backfire and malfunction because you overloaded it

[zambot]

JeffZero wrote...

The Catalyst only alters its framework to something of "astonished recognition" (or whatever) with the right EMS score. It criticizes you more and more heavily the less EMS you have. It doesn't believe Synthesis -- its goal, however warped those ambitions have become and whatever monsters [Leviathan, allegedly] those attempts created -- is yet possible unless Shepard walks in with enough galactic unity outside its door.

It actually makes sense, really.

I never thought of that.  I like that, a lot.

[The Twilight God]

The Angry One wrote...

No, that's why I said that the Citadel is what's performing the function. The Crucible is just a gigantic battery. It has no functions by itself.

OK, I misread. However, even more problems come with that assertion.

1. You don't find it at all problematic the notion that the hope for the galaxy is to build a simple battery and hope that there is some kind of weapon built into the Citadel that can stop the Reapers if only it had enough power?

2. The Crucible did not always incorporate the Citadel. At one point in time it could do whatever it is it does without the Citadel. As is seen in the endings It needed access to the relay network. I presume the initiatial energy wave is all that would have happened without the Citadel to pass it on to the rest of the galaxy via the relays.

3. Why would an organic race design a battery to stop the Reapers by powering a Reaper device to do exactly what the Reapers want? How would they know that the Citadel could perform synthesis and that it would stop the cycles? And if they do know (i.e. the Reapers told them), why is it built in secret when their intent is to give the Reapers exactly what they want? Why aren't they collaborating with the Reapers to build it? Is it a surprise birthday gift?

4. The the above in mind, if the Reapers are aware that it is just a battery and the only thing they have planned for it is Synthesis, why are they even putting up such a fight that if your forces aren't numerous enough to hold them off they damage it to the point where synthesis isn't viable?

The Angry One wrote...

My theory reasons that you're breaking a connection between the Crucible and the Citadel, a power regulator of some sort. Something that's required for the Citadel's effect to function properly. By breaking it you're releasing the synthesis wave prematurely, uncontrolled and without the organic/synthetic template.

But shouldn't that release an weak synthesis blast (i.e. synthesis without the Crucible's power)? Destory blast is an entirely different thing altogether. However Destory is just as effective performance-wise. I personally believe that synthesis requires both the Citadel and Crucible's power as it is creating matter out of energy all across the galaxy. Each atom is makes has the power of a nuke. It's too much power to concieve any piece of tech could produce (which is why I hate how synthesis was done). Destroy just requires the Crucible and uses the Citadel to push it it's blat through the relays.

I feel I need to address your OP point by point.

The Angry One wrote...

- Destroy works by breaking a primary component (the inanimate tube of doom) and causing the Citadel to malfunction and trigger an effect that wipes out synthetics. The Crucible then explodes due to generating more power than the effect actually needs (because less space magic is involved I guess) and overloading.

A random explosion that only targets syntheitcs life? It doesn't target technology, just specifically the sentience of a machine. You don't think this is alittle far fetched for a unpredictable release of energy in an unplanned manner?

The Angry One wrote...

- Control doesn't use the Crucible at all. The Crucible is a power source, designed to provide the Citadel with the energy it requires to spread Synthesis across the galaxy. Control requires no extra power because the Catalyst already controls. The Citadel is already providing power for this. All you're doing is installing a new OS and sending a software update to all Reapers. I come to this conclusion because the Citadel does not fire a beam in Control. The wave itself handles everything.

Control should be an option no matter what and there should be no difference whatsoever in how it performs regardless of EMS. However, that is not the case. If the Crucible is damaged and the Reaper Brain is not installed it will not be able to work due to lack of processing power. Although I agree that it is less energy dependent it does seem to need the Crucible to some extent. I think it is odd that the Citadel itself wouldn't have the necessary processing capabiility by itself. So although it does seem more like an arbitrary "choices matters" gimick to require the reaper brain in low EMS scenarios it does require it nonetheless and this works against your theory.

The Angry One wrote...

- Synthesis, like Destroy, clearly needs both the Citadel and Crucible to function. Like Destroy, the Citadel fires the beam and suffers damage to the wards in the same way. However, unlike Destroy it's not activated by breaking something, but rather by interacting with the rather prominently displayed and accessable beam.
Think of the terms being used here. Crucible. Synthesis. Catalyst. Get it?

Not so much a direct argument against your premise, but I wanted to state that when you initiate Control or Synthesis the beam remains intact. In Control in inititates some kind of pulse through the beam and remains connected to the Citadel via that beam even after the Crucible tip starts to light up. For synthesis the beam gets thicker and in enveloped in an energy aura. However, in Destroy that connection to the Citadel is cut. the beam shuts down and the Crucible arms without any visible connection to the Citadel. This, in my opinion, indicates that the destroy option is the default and simply occurs automatically in the absence of a "supprssion effect" and the other two are  siphining energy to power something on the Citadel.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 16 août 2012 - 07:52 .

[Epique Phael767]

 If the other two options were not the natural function then why do two otherwise pointless walkways connect you to them? 

[The Twilight God]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

 If the other two options were not the natural function then why do two otherwise pointless walkways connect you to them? 

It's just a representation of the dialog wheel. I try to ignore using it in arguments.

[Epique Phael767]

The Twilight God wrote...

Epique Phael767 wrote...

 If the other two options were not the natural function then why do two otherwise pointless walkways connect you to them? 

It's just a representation of the dialog wheel. I try to ignore using it in arguments.

Funny, that would make defying the starchild the auto-response.

[The Twilight God]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Epique Phael767 wrote...

 If the other two options were not the natural function then why do two otherwise pointless walkways connect you to them? 

It's just a representation of the dialog wheel. I try to ignore using it in arguments.

Funny, that would make defying the starchild the auto-response.

That wasn't an option when they made it. I'd say it's an investigate option. You investigate what will happen if you don't pick one of Bioware's original endings.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 16 août 2012 - 05:23 .

[plfranke]

So then why don't the Reapers just build the Crucible themselves and get the show on the road a billion years earlier?

[The Twilight God]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

Nope. 

That theory is full of holes.

[RadicalDisconnect]

The Twilight God wrote...

Are you honestly unable to accept that there are different interpretations that are just as valid as your's? Not everyone thinks alike.

[The Twilight God]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Are you honestly unable to accept that there are different interpretations that are just as valid as your's? Not everyone thinks alike.

Oh, brother. If it isn't Nagging Nancy. As I showed you when I tore your flawed "interpreatation" a new hole, just because you have a theory doesn't make it valid. It has to stand up to scrutiny. You can't just pull any half-assed balaony out of your behind and call it valid just because you choose to believe it.

I have every right to rebute other people's theories on a discussion forum. That's what debate is all about. Can't handle the fire get out of the kitchen, dude.

[Deltateam Elcor]

The Twilight God wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

Nope. 

That theory is full of holes.

So is the plot.

[lillitheris]

Overcomplicated.

The ‘tube’ is a diverter. The Crucible would simply fire off Destroy, but there’s a mechanism that diverts its power into the paths that enable Control and Synthesis.

Destroy that tube, the weapon works as intended.

[Kataphrut94]

I've heard the idea that the default Crucible function depends on whether it has the Reaper Heart or the Reaper Brain powering it, hence why on low EMS Destroy is only available for people with the heart (an energy source) and Control is only available for people with the brain (a computer system). A better built/defended Crucible allows for both, the next step up from that is Synthesis and the best possible version is one where the Destroy beam is refined enough to not kill all cyborgs.

[fchopin]

Sorry but the solution of op does not make sense to me.

I have a few ideas myself but i will wait for the new dlc as i think it could be connected to the catalyst.

[Mobius-Silent]

The Twilight God wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Actually, Control/Destroy are built into the Crucible!

Nope. 

That theory is full of holes.

BTW, I made that image _and_ the render of the 8 (there are 8 on the choice map) prongs in a cylinder.
Your "holes" are pretty weak themselves, but I'm not going to argue, simply put IMHO the explaination above is the most likely explaination after spending a _lot_ of time with the map assets and in flymore around the end map, YMMV.

It was never intended to be "proof" of anything, it was simply an illustration of an proposal, and I still think it's more likely than the other options.

BTW, for the person asking about the "control" panel... Its actually on _wheels_ further suggesting it "rolled out" along the unfolding thin rails (Thin rails are part of the Crucible[green], thick are part of the Citadel[red])

...

Ok maybe I will argue a bit, I'm a sucker for defending my hypotheses

1. Whatever it is it is small enough to fit within the "grasp" of the Crucible dock fingers. There is no possible way all that stuff could fit into a shape that thin. My guess is that it eventually breaks off like those other parts we see.

The nubbin is present right up until the Crucible stops moving forward and has locked onto the Citadel, we then have a second or so were we cant see before seeing the light-up sequence where it has gone. IMHO after lining up the control and synthesis consoles I don't think it's unreasonable they were intended to be packed in there by the Bioware art staff.

2. Those contraptions have cables running into the Citadel. It isn't something that just laying on top of the Citadel. Follow the cables on both the Control and Power Junction and see where they lead.

None of those cables look native to that area, they look "dropped", as if ME fields hooked them into place and then dropped them.

3. There are no bendable parts. All the canitlevers are solid steel or finished concrete. No joints.

Memory metal from other cultures, designed long ago, not designed by this cycles engineers.

4. If you look to your right past the power junction you'll notice some of the parts that would be the extended "legs" of this proposed nubbin extend underneath parts that are definitively the Citadel (looks like a walkway for 2 addtional future endings). Which means it would have to slide in vs. extending over and setting down on top.

Nubbin settles, even prongs rotate, thin rails unfold and slide out along the surface, locking into place, control and destroy consoles roll and lock into place, cables attach. IMHO perfectly possible, tough and expensive to animate though, hence the sequence was skipped.

5. The rings of solar panel looking parts on the inside of the cantilevers have no breaks for folding even if it was possible for the rest of the contraption to fold.

Memory metal it's still thin enough to fold, this is supposed to be advanced.

6. Pic #6 in the photo doesn't even match up with the actual contraption on the Citadel or the nubbin. Somebody pulled that model out of their ass. It completely ignores entire sections of the thing and look nothing like it is presented in pic #1 (which is clearly a cylinder).

Did you miss the word "mockup" it is there for a reason, it is _illustrating_ the that prongs could make a container shape similar to the nubbin. the Cinematic Crucible model and the map crucible are notably different in _many_ places due to being modelled by different studios (The cinematics were frequently outsourced) they are similar enough for me.

7. There is still the issue of the walkway that forks into three paths (I think this is more Bioware presenting a conversation wheel so I'm willing to ignore it)

That is part of the Citadel, just like the parts that retract to make the chasm

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 16 août 2012 - 11:57 .

[Pitznik]

I like the general idea, Crucible being design of the Reapers/Reapers' creator makes sense, since designing it had to require knowledge about the Catalyst/Citadel.

But I have one question - if Catalyst is free willed, and he undeniably favours the Synthesis, why does he even mention Destroy and Control, which in the long run are worse solutions than the Reapers?

In my opinion the fact that Crucible has to be forcibly inserted into the Citadel (so wrong), and the fact Catalyst presents both Control and Destroy options must mean those are enforced upon him. He lost, but he still tries to make the best of it. Destroy and Control come from improvement of basic Crucible design, or some exploit of its weaknesses. That would make both Control and Destroy our solutions, and not Catalyst's solution.

[tettenjager]

tis symbolism; Destroy: you destroy a tube, Control: you use a control panel thing, Synthesis: you take a leap of faith, or you take "a step forward"

[AlexMBrennan]

Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

[Mobius-Silent]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

Interesting point.

_If_ you had designed the destroy mechanism but found that the arming mechanism couldn't be remote due to the possibility of Reaper cyberwarfare what sort of trigger would you use?

Something simple and physical, like a fuse,  big fuse that a ship could target, that was inactive until the Crucible was connected and armed.

Not unresonable..

[Mobius-Silent]

Pitznik wrote...

But I have one question - if Catalyst is free willed, and he undeniably favours the Synthesis, why does he even mention Destroy and Control, which in the long run are worse solutions than the Reapers?

The Catalyst does not have free will, it is completely bound to ensure peace between synthetics and organics, that is its reason for existance. The options added by the Catalyst are not actionable by it. Synthesis _must_ be a free choice by the donor of the emotional template, each of the three option frees the Catalyst from it's burden of striving to create peace so they are all viable options.

IMHO