184 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

plfranke wrote...

So then why don't the Reapers just build the Crucible themselves and get the show on the road a billion years earlier?

because the Catalyst said it tried Systhesis before but failed, so I'm assuming all those cycles before they didn't have enough power or tech to do it fully

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

plfranke wrote...

So then why don't the Reapers just build the Crucible themselves and get the show on the road a billion years earlier?

because the Catalyst said it tried Systhesis before but failed, so I'm assuming all those cycles before they didn't have enough power or tech to do it fully

No. That's not it at all. The catalyst is a being of logic. It has no imagination. Logic just used the info it has on had. If it did not know the crucible can do synthesis it would not think to use it.
It failed before because it only used th info ithas on hand. It can only imporve things , not invent things.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

plfranke wrote...

So then why don't the Reapers just build the Crucible themselves and get the show on the road a billion years earlier?

because the Catalyst said it tried Systhesis before but failed, so I'm assuming all those cycles before they didn't have enough power or tech to do it fully

No. That's not it at all. The catalyst is a being of logic. It has no imagination. Logic just used the info it has on had. If it did not know the crucible can do synthesis it would not think to use it.
It failed before because it only used th info ithas on hand. It can only imporve things , not invent things.

I was talking about the Crucible

[The Angry One]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

Since when does breaking a complex device activate it in the manner intended by the designers? Assuming it's not a bomb.
Really, my meaning was clear enough. The Crucible is not a bomb, a glowstick or a beer can.

[Xamufam]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm not trying to prove anything, actually. Just trying to make sense of the nature of the Crucible/Citadel combo, it's origins and how it works.

hard to make sense of something that is contrived to the story

[AresKeith]

bump because I like this thread

[Reever]

...or they really didn´t give it as much thought as some of you guys do -.-"
That´s why I like to have definite endings to most things I watch/play/read. Less people b*tching around

[Mobius-Silent]

The Angry One wrote...

Since when does breaking a complex device activate it in the manner intended by the designers? Assuming it's not a bomb.
Really, my meaning was clear enough. The Crucible is not a bomb, a glowstick or a beer can.

As I just said a little further up, when it's a fuse designed to be resistant to cyberwarfare. I'm not positing that as the only option, but it is an interesting one. A simple physical fuse, where the crucible fires upon fuse failure, placed on the base of the citadel.

[The Twilight God]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

It was never intended to be "proof" of anything, it was simply an illustration of an proposal, and I still think it's more likely than the other options.

Yeah, problem is the control prongs and power junction are hard wired into the Citadel and there is no bendable parts, so it's impossible.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BTW, for the person asking about the "control" panel... Its actually on _wheels_ further suggesting it "rolled out" along the unfolding thin rails (Thin rails are part of the Crucible[green], thick are part of the Citadel[red])

Those aren't wheels.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

The nubbin is present right up until the Crucible stops moving forward and has locked onto the Citadel, we then have a second or so were we cant see before seeing the light-up sequence where it has gone. IMHO after lining up the control and synthesis consoles I don't think it's unreasonable they were intended to be packed in there by the Bioware art staff.

Or they could have made the nubbin bigger, actually look like it could unfold into that stuff, design the contraption with bendable joints and make that stuff self contained vs. being hardwired into the Citadel. Just saying.

Alot of stuff pops off and floats away. The nubbin does the same. Simple.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

None of those cables look native to that area, they look "dropped", as if ME fields hooked them into place and then dropped them.

Yeah, luckily the Citadel has random outlets in the middle of nowhere so that these huge cables can magically fall into place. That's 100% speculation and not the good kind. What should the cables look like? Bioware artists only used 3 types in the game. LOL

Follow them and see where they lead. Come on now. You're in denial here.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Memory metal from other cultures, designed long ago, not designed by this cycles engineers.

That is baseless speculation. And all the huge cables, "solar panel" rings and all that other Destroy/Control stuff that could never fit in the amount of space between the Crucible tip fingers is what? Memory foam?

Here is another equally valid piece of baseless speculation: The nubbin is composed of tiny memory foam space lego that disaamble and reassemble into the contraption we see in game. I can pull a ton of stuff like that out of my ass, but it would still be baseless conjecture.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Nubbin settles, even prongs rotate, thin rails unfold and slide out along the surface, locking into place, control and destroy consoles roll and lock into place, cables attach. IMHO perfectly possible, tough and expensive to animate though, hence the sequence was skipped.

No idea what you are trying to convey here, but... OK. whatever you say. 

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Memory metal it's still thin enough to fold, this is supposed to be advanced.

Been over this already

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Did you miss the word "mockup" it is there for a reason, it is _illustrating_ the that prongs could make a container shape similar to the nubbin. the Cinematic Crucible model and the map crucible are notably different in _many_ places due to being modelled by different studios (The cinematics were frequently outsourced) they are similar enough for me.

The "mockup" fails to show this as it ignores the solar panel rings, walkway extension/"leg" prongs, control station and destroy gizmo.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

That is part of the Citadel, just like the parts that retract to make the chasm

Yes, the issue would be why does the Citadel have a walkway that leads right to the 3 options? But as I said, it's just a glorified conversation wheel.

[Mobius-Silent]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Yeah, problem is the control prongs and power junction are hard wired into the Citadel and there is no bendable parts, so it's impossible. [/quote]

"impossible" suggests a serious lack of imaginaton. The prongs aren't hard-connected at all, they are supported by the thin walkways that are jammed into the sides of the chasm. Mayble I'll produce another image to illustrate, from what you've said so far it seems necessary.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Those aren't wheels.[/quote]

So you say, I disagree, I say they are intended to represent a rail-like movable item, I've illustrate my reasons, your take seems to be "no it isn't" with little other exposition.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Or they could have made the nubbin bigger, actually look like it could unfold into that stuff, design the contraption with bendable joints and make that stuff self contained vs. being hardwired into the Citadel. Just saying.[/quote]

This is just silly, I've illustrated that the prongs can make a remarkably similar container, the remaining components aren't that big and are almost entirely composed of very thin struts, wheras the citadel propper is almost all thick, sturdy blocks.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Alot of stuff pops off and floats away. The nubbin does the same. Simple.[/quote] You haven't even _bothered_ to re-watch the docking sequence? have you? things pop off then the crucible cruses into place and connects to the presidium ring, _the nubbin is there until the crucible stops moving_ my last screen shot is less than a second from the crucible stop point, and I only took that shot because it was clearer.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Yeah, luckily the Citadel has random outlets in the middle of nowhere so that these huge cables can magically fall into place. That's 100% speculation and not the good kind. What should the cables look like? Bioware artists only used 3 types in the game. LOL[/quote]The cables don't look routed, they are dangling _from_ the choice dias and snake off into the bowls of the Citadel. Here's a point for you. The main cable goes down into the chasm, that chasm _wasn't even there_ before the crucible docked (and the radial plates retracted to form the chasm). I'm guessing you're not going to understand what I'm saying because you haven't studied the choice area but that's ok I'll prep some more images later. When I said "None of those cables look native to that area" I mean they are dangling and barely fixed in place, like extension cords.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Follow them and see where they lead. Come on now. You're in denial here.[/quote] one goes off under the lip to the side, the other dangles down the shaft, much like a giant extension cord. Your point is?

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
That is baseless speculation.[/quote] Plenty of people here disagree with your claims of "baseless" I like to let the images speak for themselves

[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
Nubbin settles, even prongs rotate, thin rails unfold and slide out along the surface, locking into place, control and destroy consoles roll and lock into place, cables attach. IMHO perfectly possible, tough and expensive to animate though, hence the sequence was skipped.[/quote]
[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
No idea what you are trying to convey here, but... OK. whatever you say.[/quote] I'm describing a suggestion of what the unfold sequence would look like, then pointing out why it wasn't shown.

[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
Did you miss the word "mockup" it is there for a reason, it is _illustrating_ the that prongs could make a container shape similar to the nubbin. the Cinematic Crucible model and the map crucible are notably different in _many_ places due to being modelled by different studios (The cinematics were frequently outsourced) they are similar enough for me.[/quote]
[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
The "mockup" fails to show this as it ignores the solar panel rings, walkway extension/"leg" prongs, control station and destroy gizmo.[/quote] That isn't what it was for, I was illustrating that the primary structural items of the choice dais could make a container similar to the nubbin, I did that, other seem happy with that illustration. I'm caring less and less what you think.

[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
That is part of the Citadel, just like the parts that retract to make the chasm[/quote]
[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
Yes, the issue would be why does the Citadel have a walkway that leads right to the 3 options? But as I said, it's just a glorified conversation wheel. [/quote]This entire section of the Citadel is reconfigurable, the chasm wasn't there before the Crucible docked, the sliding panels can move and reconfigure to a desired shape, that much is obvious if you lookd around the map at _all_

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think my case here is anywhere near as weak as you seem to portray it, I'm happy to let the others in the forum make their own minds up.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 août 2012 - 09:58 .

[Jadebaby]

If that's true, maybe once the Catalyst first came ot his conclusion. He decided that synthesis was the only solution; to merge. Therefore after building the Citadel and Crucible, the organics (Leviathans) tried to intervene and stop it. Resulting in the first 'dysfunctional' Reaper in "the "Leviathan". Then the organics ultimately lost that war and the first true Reaper was born, "Harbinger."

Maybe the crucible had been built before, and after this war. The crucible's plans were forever kept hidden from 'indoctrinated eyes."

But the device, in itself, is Indoctrination. Due to it being a trap for Synthesis.

Thoughts?

[Fedi.St]

jade. Only bioware will decide.

There are many paths that they could follow. The ending is open ended. If they wanted to stop speculations and support their claim that is over they wouldn.t add refuse

[Mobius-Silent]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If that's true, maybe once the Catalyst first came ot his conclusion. He decided that synthesis was the only solution; to merge. Therefore after building the Citadel and Crucible, the organics (Leviathans) tried to intervene and stop it. Resulting in the first 'dysfunctional' Reaper in "the "Leviathan". Then the organics ultimately lost that war and the first true Reaper was born, "Harbinger."

Maybe the crucible had been built before, and after this war. The crucible's plans were forever kept hidden from 'indoctrinated eyes."

But the device, in itself, is Indoctrination. Due to it being a trap for Synthesis.

Thoughts?

Leviathan is quite clearly a Leviathan, that is, the last of the race that created the Reapers and the Catalyst. This is amazingly clear in the DLC leak the story goes like this:

• Find scientist looking for father
• Father was investigating old reaper stories and disapeared
• Chase around the galaxy following clues
• Find cave paintings and other stories that "confirm" Leviathan is a Reaper (Well it looks like one)
• Find "puppets" that are being mind controlled a-bit-like-indoctrination-but-not-quite
• Find dead Reaper. "Oh noes a reaper killed another Reaper, how could that be?"
• Find Leviathan, *DO THE PLOT TWIST DANCE* Leviathan isn't a Reaper, it just looks like one because the Reapers were designed to look like their creators and Leviathan is the last of that race *dun dun daaaa!*
• Confront Catalys at the end "You and the Reapers were created by the Leviathan's weren't you" Catalyst: "Yea, so?" *end progresses as normal*

Synthesis will not be mentioned, it's not relevent to this part of the story.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 août 2012 - 11:39 .

[Pitznik]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If that's true, maybe once the Catalyst first came ot his conclusion. He decided that synthesis was the only solution; to merge. Therefore after building the Citadel and Crucible, the organics (Leviathans) tried to intervene and stop it. Resulting in the first 'dysfunctional' Reaper in "the "Leviathan". Then the organics ultimately lost that war and the first true Reaper was born, "Harbinger."

Maybe the crucible had been built before, and after this war. The crucible's plans were forever kept hidden from 'indoctrinated eyes."

But the device, in itself, is Indoctrination. Due to it being a trap for Synthesis.

Thoughts?

Leviathan is quite clearly a Leviathan, that is, the last of the race that created the Reapers and the Catalyst. This is amazingly clear in the DLC leak the story goes like this:

• Find scientist looking for father
• Father was investigating old reaper stories and disapeared
• Chase around the galaxy following clues
• Find cave paintings and other stories that "confirm" Leviathan is a Reaper (Well it looks like one)
• Find "puppets" that are being mind controlled a-bit-like-indoctrination-but-not-quite
• Find dead Reaper. "Oh noes a reaper killed another Reaper, how could that be?"
• Find Leviathan, *DO THE PLOT TWIST DANCE* Leviathan isn't a Reaper, it just looks like one because the Reapers were designed to look like their creators and Leviathan is the last of that race *dun dun daaaa!*
• Confront Catalys at the end "You and the Reapers were created by the Leviathan's weren't you" Catalyst: "Yea, so?" *end progresses as normal*

Synthesis will not be mentioned, it's not relevent to this part of the story.

I remember reading leviathan is failed attempt at synthesis, early beta. Was that speculation? I hope you are actually right, sounds more interesting.

[Mobius-Silent]

Pitznik wrote...
I remember reading leviathan is failed attempt at synthesis, early beta. Was that speculation? I hope you are actually right, sounds more interesting.

There is nothing in the leak or in any of the interviews that even vaguely supports that.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 août 2012 - 12:10 .

[Memnon]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

Since when does breaking a complex device activate it in the manner intended by the designers? Assuming it's not a bomb.
Really, my meaning was clear enough. The Crucible is not a bomb, a glowstick or a beer can.

More importantly - why would someone design a control interface which literally kills the user upon activation?

[Mobius-Silent]

Stornskar wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since when does breaking a device activate it in the manner intended by the designers?

Since when does breaking a complex device activate it in the manner intended by the designers? Assuming it's not a bomb.
Really, my meaning was clear enough. The Crucible is not a bomb, a glowstick or a beer can.

More importantly - why would someone design a control interface which literally kills the user upon activation?

As I've been saying. When the device is designed to be activated remotely while not being vulnerable to cyberwarfare:

Crucible docks, ship targets the fireing fuse, fires and bugs out.

[zambot]

tettenjager wrote...

tis symbolism; Destroy: you destroy a tube, Control: you use a control panel thing, Synthesis: you take a leap of faith, or you take "a step forward"

And don't forget to extend your arms while you are falling to get some Christ imagery going there.


Somewhere, in Canada, there is an artist who just received a link to this thread with a message that says, "Bro, look at all these people interpreting your art and coming up with explanations of how it works!  Isn't that cool?!"

[Memnon]

tettenjager wrote...

tis symbolism; Destroy: you destroy a tube, Control: you use a control panel thing, Synthesis: you take a leap of faith, or you take "a step forward"

This is the problem - the symbolism is so over-the-top, that it does not flow with the game. We are hit in the face so hard with the symbolism, that it wrenches us from the experience. Symbolism when done well is subtle ... this was not well done. The writers basically rammed the symbolism down our throats, and to hell with the narrative

[zambot]

Stornskar wrote...

tettenjager wrote...

tis symbolism; Destroy: you destroy a tube, Control: you use a control panel thing, Synthesis: you take a leap of faith, or you take "a step forward"

This is the problem - the symbolism is so over-the-top, that it does not flow with the game. We are hit in the face so hard with the symbolism, that it wrenches us from the experience. Symbolism when done well is subtle ... this was not well done. The writers basically rammed the symbolism down our throats, and to hell with the narrative

100%.  

[The Angry One]

To be perfectly frank, I don't care what Walters intended with this supposed symbolism. He has lost all my respect, and I do not give writers I don't respect any leeway or buy into their symbolism, so I will interpret the events of the game in a logical, in-universe manner and the more that strays from the "symbolism" Walters intended, the better.

Mobius-Silent wrote...

As I just said a little further up,
when it's a fuse designed to be resistant to cyberwarfare. I'm not
positing that as the only option, but it is an interesting one. A simple
physical fuse, where the crucible fires upon fuse failure, placed on
the base of the citadel.

Then all functions should be activated in a similar manner.

Modifié par The Angry One, 17 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[Isichar]

Symbolism can be alright if it is done correctly or fits with the theme of the story. Forcing it in for 1 moment in the story was just bad.

[eye basher]

You do know that the catalyst tried synthesis once already and it didn't work why should it now.

[Pitznik]

eye basher wrote...

You do know that the catalyst tried synthesis once already and it didn't work why should it now.

Because this time it will work, you have his word for it.