42 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

 So, I know many people had brought up the idea of having a return to non-combat skills, like what we saw in DA:O. 

Given that, I think an interesting set of skills to have could be languages. 

Given that we are going to at least be 'somewhere more French' according to Gaider, we know the likelihood of being in Orlais. Where the majority of people SHOULD be speaking (you guessed it) Orlesian. In addition, Val Roueaux will likely have a very international mix of people, being the seat of power for Thedas' Chantry. So there would likely be a variety of people who either don't speak Common or who would be talking to a member of their nationality in their own tongue, having the choice of language(s) to learn could be an interesting character progression. 

This could unlock certain quests by hearing or picking up conversations that non-fluent speaking characters would not be able to understand, or unlocking special dialogue/persuasions by being able to converse in a speaker's native language, rather than in common. 

Any thoughts on this?

[andar91]

I don't intent to give offense, but this sounds awful. I think it adds very little to the game as you describe.

However, the idea of a Lore skill that would allow us to decipher ancient texts and historical things could be interesting and do much of the same things. But I can't think of any examples of a nationality of people who don't speak 'Common'.

[Face of Evil]

Ah, language skills, that red-headed stepchild of tabletop gaming. Useful in theory, but in truth, if your GM wants to convey any necessary information to you, he'll bloody well do it in a language you speak.

I always hate being denied quests because I don't possess a seemingly abitrary skill set. "Well, **** you for not being clairovoyant," says the game, while running off with all my fabulous wealth and XP, simply because I didn't put enough points into Basket-weaving or Forcing Pandas to Mate with Each Other To Save Their Stupid Species.

That rogue line of quests in DAO irked me to no end when I was denied it because I didn't take a rank in Pickpocketing, the most absolutely useless waste of skill points since Luke Skywalker decided to put 18 years putting points into Moisture Farming.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 août 2012 - 12:27 .

[Fast Jimmy]

All fair enough criticisms, I suppose. But do we really expect two Orlesians haggling over the price of poodles (or whatever Orlesians like to buy) doing so in thick, Orlesian accents in Common?

That makes no sense.

[Reznore57]

I think orlesians speak english , just like they speak english in rivain , the free marches etc...
The only diffrent language I can remember for human is arcantum (i'm not sure it's what it's called) in tevinter.

If orlesians speak a different language , we should already be aware of it , they are the center of the chantry and have a big academy...we would have found orlesians text along the way at least.

[Face of Evil]

Translation convention, Fast Jimmy!

[Henioo]

I want some passive skills, like persuasion in Origins.

The language thing they had in a Gothic addon by the name of Night of the Raven. There, an ancient civilasation was found in a remote part of island, or what was left of it. To progress through missions one had to learn how to read ancient stone tablets. And then in turn, those tablets gave you skills so it was a win-win situation - you spend learning point on learing the language, but then you get it back by reading ancient stuff.

Anyway, a thing like that could add to the replayability, say a mage starts off with more, let's call it inteligence, and thus it is easier for a mage to for example read notes left by ancient elves or something.

[brushyourteeth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

All fair enough criticisms, I suppose. But do we really expect two Orlesians haggling over the price of poodles (or whatever Orlesians like to buy) doing so in thick, Orlesian accents in Common?

That makes no sense.

Oh man. This made me LOL.
I sincerely hope we get to see some poodle-haggling in the next thing. 

But seriously, all the encounters we've had with Orlesians seem to point toward them actually speaking the same language as Fereldens, Free Marchers, Antivans, Rivainis, and Tevinters - with a few coloquial terms thrown in if you're an Antivan or an Orlesian like "maldecion!" or "Mais oui."

But the Dalish and the Qunari seem to originally speak an entirely different language. Silent Sisters have to learn to communicate to others through sign language. So those skills could definitely be useful.

[Pasquale1234]

Face of Evil wrote...

That rogue line of quests in DAO irked me to no end when I was denied it because I didn't take a rank in Pickpocketing, the most absolutely useless waste of skill points since Luke Skywalker decided to put 18 years putting points into Moisture Farming.

Useless unless the rogue line of quests are of interest to you.  I like consequences with choices, including choices in skill point investments.

Kudos, Fast Jimmy, for thinking outside the box here.  I'd like to see some different non-combat skills in play, especially if they require the player to make tough choices ala tradeoffs.  Also adds to replayability when you can do different builds that set you up for different approaches to game events.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

It would be nice though if say the Qunari had a different language than say Fereldens.

[Face of Evil]

So I'm punished because I don't want to put points into a mechanic so useless that it feels like they invented this line of quests just to elevate Pickpocketing from something beyond "****** on a bull"? How utterly arbitrary and un-fun.

It doesn't make your character any more special because you took that one skill in Pickpocketing to get that quest line; all it proves that you, the player, were either willing to shell out for a strategy guide or you looked at a wiki. Because Pickpocketing was so absolutely worthless that the only reason you'd pick it is if you were cheating or you recently suffered brain damage.

And where are the quests tailored for Mages or Fighters? It seems like they tossed Slim Couldry into the game as a consolation prize for anyone who decided not to play the unfavourite middle child of DAO classes, ie. the rogue.

DinoSteve wrote...

It would be nice though if say the Qunari had a different language than say Fereldens.

They do have their own language, and they speak it frequently.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 août 2012 - 12:51 .

[ScotGaymer]

Face of Evil wrote...

So I'm punished because I don't want to put points into a mechanic so useless that it feels like they invented this line of quests just to elevate Pickpocketing from something beyond "****** on a bull"? How utterly arbitrary and un-fun.

It doesn't make your character any more special because you took that one skill in Pickpocketing to get that quest line; all it proves that you, the player, were either willing to shell out for a strategy guide or you looked at a wiki. Because Pickpocketing was so absolutely worthless that the only reason you'd pick it is if you were cheating or you recently suffered brain damage.

And where are the quests tailored for Mages or Fighters? It seems like they tossed Slim Couldry into the game as a consolation prize for anyone who decided not to play the unfavourite middle child of DAO classes, ie. the rogue.

DinoSteve wrote...

It would be nice though if say the Qunari had a different language than say Fereldens.

They do have their own language, and they speak it frequently.

People like you are why in Skyrim it is nearly possible to do a 100% complete playthru of everysingle quest, become the head of every single "guild", and do just about everything in the game in one go even when you have a character that it makes no sense to do those things with.
Example: playing as a pure mage character with NO points in the traditional fighter areas becoming head of The Companions, and later becoming head of the College of Winterhold makes no damn sense.
Or playing a devout of the Eight(Nine) and doing quests for the Daedric Princes, again making no damn sense.

Some choices SHOULD automatically lock out certain content. It makes sense, its logical, and its immersive. And it encourages replays.

It is NOT a punishment.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 16 août 2012 - 12:55 .

[Pasquale1234]

Face of Evil wrote...

So I'm punished because I don't want to put points into a mechanic so useless that it feels like they invented this line of quests just to elevate Pickpocketing from something beyond "****** on a bull"? How utterly arbitrary and un-fun.

I did a lot of pickpocketing in the game.  There was an interesting scene with Duncan at Ostagar if you got caught trying to steal before your joining.  I found it rather enjoyable, though YMMV.  It was another option available to those who enjoy it, and I like choices.

And where are the quests tailored for Mages or Fighters? It seems like they tossed Slim Couldry into the game as a consolation prize for anyone who decided not to play the unfavourite middle child of DAO classes, ie. the rogue.

The stealing skill wasn't restricted to rogues in DAO.  I did it with a warrior.

[Fast Jimmy]

brushyourteeth wrote...

But seriously, all the encounters we've had with Orlesians seem to point toward them actually speaking the same language as Fereldens, Free Marchers, Antivans, Rivainis, and Tevinters - with a few coloquial terms thrown in if you're an Antivan or an Orlesian like "maldecion!" or "Mais oui."

Hmmmm. No. 
http://social.biowar...839/308#5721833 

Rivain, Orlais, Tevinter... they all have their own languages. If we as characters are visiting these countries, there will undoubtedly be a large population that speaks Common, but if speaking to each other, there is NO reason why they would not be using their native tongue. So if in Orlais, we are walking through a marketplace, people will be chatting to one another in a language our character will (likely) have no knowledge of. 

So... do we want to just not understand any of that? Or would it not be cool to have a non-combat skill you can get to unlock Orlesian (dialgoue will remain the same, but subtitles would tranlsate), or Tevinter, or Dwarven, or Dalish?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 août 2012 - 01:00 .

[Blacklash93]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
Some choices SHOULD automatically lock out certain content. It makes sense, its logical, and its immersive. And it encourages replays.

It is NOT a punishment.

I'm sure it's for the sake of those who would never consider starting the game over, which may constitute most of the audience.

[Fast Jimmy]

Blacklash93 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...
Some choices SHOULD automatically lock out certain content. It makes sense, its logical, and its immersive. And it encourages replays.

It is NOT a punishment.

I'm sure it's for the sake of those who would never consider starting the game over, which may constitute most of the audience.

Content that cannot be accessed during the first playthrough is one of the best things Origins had going for it. If you choose to have the Werewolves kill the Dalish, you lock out the content of seeing them anymore or completing any remaining quests with them. Is that a punishment? No, it is a choice. And choice is what made DA:O great.

If you feel penalized because there are actual consequences to your choices, then I'm a little befuddled.

[Face of Evil]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

People like you are why in Skyrim it is nearly possible to do a 100% complete playthru of everysingle quest, become the head of every single "guild", and do just about everything in the game in one go even when you have a character that it makes no sense to do those things with.

Having not played Skyrim myself, I'm not sure that I'm the best person to defend it … but why is that a problem? If it's the sort of thing that bothers you, then restrict your own damn gameplay. If you don't like the idea that you can be the head of every guild or complete every quest on a single playthrough, then ****ing don't. Are you a child that will press every big red button he sees unless someone slaps your hand away?

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I did a lot of pickpocketing in the game.  There was an interesting scene with Duncan at Ostagar if you got caught trying to steal before your joining.  I found it rather enjoyable, though YMMV.  It was another option available to those who enjoy it, and I like choices.

And you only got that scene because you failed at Pickpocketing. That doesn't speak well of a skill that's only worth taking if you consciously decide to be really bad at it.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

The stealing skill wasn't restricted to rogues in DAO.  I did it with a warrior.

I know, but the only class that could use Pickpocketing in a marginally useful way were rogues. You wasted a skill point that could have been better spent on Persuasion or Combat, and in the end, the game likely ended up punishing you more than rewarding you for making that choice.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Content that cannot be accessed during the first playthrough is one of the best things Origins had going for it. If you choose to have the Werewolves kill the Dalish, you lock out the content of seeing them anymore or completing any remaining quests with them. Is that a punishment? No, it is a choice. And choice is what made DA:O great.

If you feel penalized because there are actual consequences to your choices, then I'm a little befuddled.

I'm not arguing that I don't like consequences from in-game choices; both DAO and DA2 has plenty of those. I'm saying that I don't like restrictions based on arbitrary skill sets. If I deny myself a quest line because I refuse to work with a group of mercenaries in Act 1 of DA3, I'm OK with that. But if I'm denied said quests because I haven't put enough points into Chicken Sexing or Deciphering the Works of James Joyce, that makes me pull my gorram hair out.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 août 2012 - 01:27 .

[Henioo]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

People like you are why in Skyrim it is nearly possible to do a 100% complete playthru of everysingle quest, become the head of every single "guild", and do just about everything in the game in one go even when you have a character that it makes no sense to do those things with.
Example: playing as a pure mage character with NO points in the traditional fighter areas becoming head of The Companions, and later becoming head of the College of Winterhold makes no damn sense.
Or playing a devout of the Eight(Nine) and doing quests for the Daedric Princes, again making no damn sense.

Meh, I don't see why Skyrim is so different. I just finished my first playthrough of Morrowind, and as a shield-wielding Nord who also knows about enchantments and alchemy I became the head of Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, and Morag Tong. And how? Because with money you can learn every motherloving skill. and since a deadric weapon, which you can find at every deadric shrine, costs like 15000 or more - you sell 20 and you're set for life. Sure, it was strange that a warrior with no magical abilities can become an archmage in Skyrim, but that's no reason to say Skyrim is any different. In fact, none of the Mages Guild quests in Morrowind are related to magic and I don't see people complaining.

Anyway, enought about TES.

I am up for anythign that will make multiple playthroughs enjoyable. The language thing could provide different pathways, i.e. a mage can go around enemies through a cannal locked to those who can't read elven; but warriors who don't know the language can just walk in and paint the walls with enemies. You get the same conclusion, but by different means.

It's just gotta be smart.

Modifié par Henioo, 16 août 2012 - 01:17 .

[Pasquale1234]

Face of Evil wrote...
I'm not arguing that I don't like consequences from in-game choices; both DAO and DA2 has plenty of those. I'm saying that I don't like restrictions based on arbitrary skill sets. If I deny myself a quest line because I refuse to work with a group of mercenaries in Act 1 of DA3, I'm OK with that. But if I'm denied said quests because I haven't put enough points into Chicken Sexing or Deciphering the Works of James Joyce, that makes me pull my gorram hair out.

There were actually several quest lines in DAO that required specific skills.  Crafting (traps, potions, poisons) in several places, ailing Halla in the Dalish Camp needed the Survival skill to complete.  I think there were also several places where the Coercion skill changed your options.

Meh.  I think it's perfectly appropriate that your choices in skill point allocations also impact your opportunities in the game.  If you miss out on some quest lines, then you are presumably enjoying other benefits from the skills you chose instead.

[Face of Evil]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

There were actually several quest lines in DAO that required specific skills.  Crafting (traps, potions, poisons) in several places, ailing Halla in the Dalish Camp needed the Survival skill to complete.  I think there were also several places where the Coercion skill changed your options.

Yes, I'm aware of the quests in Lothering and that halla quest in the Dalish camp. I ended up doing that quest because I looked it up online and discovered you needed at least three ranks in Survival to complete it. I certainly wouldn't have taken them otherwise, as Nature was only slightly less useless than Pickpocketing and I had skill points to spare.

But that arbitrary requirement didn't make me feel my PC was any more distinct for having those Survival skill points — my guy didn't suddenly transform into Smokey the Bear or start hugging trees — and I only succeeded by (essentially) cheating. Sure, I felt good helping the Halla, but if I'd been able to go into the forest and retrieve a herb or find a special healer to treat the animal, I'd have achieved the same result.

And I'd have to be a pretty sorry f**ker with too much time on my hands to start a second playthrough just because I missed that one quest where you get to cure a Dragon Age Unicorn because I wasn't good enough at belly-rubs and baby talk.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 août 2012 - 02:24 .

[Pasquale1234]

Face of Evil wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I did a lot of pickpocketing in the game.  There was an interesting scene with Duncan at Ostagar if you got caught trying to steal before your joining.  I found it rather enjoyable, though YMMV.  It was another option available to those who enjoy it, and I like choices.

And you only got that scene because you failed at Pickpocketing. That doesn't speak well of a skill that's only worth taking if you consciously decide to be really bad at it.

Role-playing isn't always about being the best at everything.  It's about making in-character choices, and my characters aren't always the best at everything they try to do.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

The stealing skill wasn't restricted to rogues in DAO.  I did it with a warrior.

I know, but the only class that could use Pickpocketing in a marginally useful way were rogues. You wasted a skill point that could have been better spent on Persuasion or Combat, and in the end, the game likely ended up punishing you more than rewarding you for making that choice.

Punished?  I don't think so, but then I don't strive to min/max everything in every playthrough.  Frankly, I find that approach boring.  Since I enjoy having choices, and had fun pickpocketing with a warrior, I'd say I was rewarded.

[Realmzmaster]

The survival skill was quite useful and made perfect sense for a ranger (but not limited to) to take levels in it. The Halla quest required a check against survival. Survival was also useful for determining what enemies the party was facing and at what level.
The Stealing skill was also useful in all my playthroughs. It depend on how you wish to roleplay your character. My ranger was a survivalist with the ability to steal or break into just about anything.

If you build a character you make choices. The stealing skill allowed the character to steal from many targets and amass a small fortune and was not limited to the rogue. The warrior could become equally adept at stealing. Also by taking the Stealing skill and increasing in rank it required less Cunning. It all depends on how you wish to build and roleplay the character. I found both Stealing and survival to be very useful, but YYMV.

[Realmzmaster]

I like the idea of having to decipher ancient text and gaining a bonus for doing it. The skill could be called Deciphering. (I know it is not original). It reminds me of the Cartography and Alchemy skill in Eschalon. The more points put into cartography the more detailed the maps. Same with Alchemy..

Learning a different language passably could lead to over hearing a conversation wrong and the party heads into an embrassing situation instead of picking up a quest or walk into an ambush intend for someone else.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 août 2012 - 02:30 .

[Face of Evil]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The survival skill was quite useful and made perfect sense for a ranger (but not limited to) to take levels in it. The Halla quest required a check against survival. Survival was also useful for determining what enemies the party was facing and at what level.

Maybe on the PC, but on the XBox 360, all it did was make some enemies pop up on the map a small distance away from you. And in a combat-heavy game like Dragon Age, telling you that there are some enemies ahead is like telling you that in the next five seconds you're about to inhale oxygen.

As for Pickpocketing, I had Leliana max out that skill (because I sure as hell wasn't going to waste much-needed early skill points on it) and the most she ever turned up were the conjoined twins known as F**K and ALL. You had to rob virtually everyone to get anything useful, and I'm not really interested in robbing everyone I meet. One, because it's tedious, and two, because I don't favour that brand of heroic sociopathy where the PC is entitled to everything of value not nailed down and on fire by virtue of being the main character.

And really, for all the effort you put into RPing a sneaky, survivalist ranger, you were really no better at the Survival skill than my City Elf who'd apparently never even seen a mabari before he arrived at Ostagar by the time we ended the game. We both could make birds sing with the snap of your fingers, but I only gained that skill so that I could clear some silly and arbitrary mid-game hurdle. Does that make you feel better about your choices?

It's at this point that I pick up a white cat and curl my lips into a sneer while I remark "You and I, we're not so different, Mr. Bond." And then you go to point a gun at me in the hopes that I'll monologue the details of my evil plan, but you suddenly find that you're also stroking an identical white cat because the only difference between our assembly line PCs is headcanon and denial.

We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 août 2012 - 02:54 .

[Realmzmaster]

Face of Evil wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The survival skill was quite useful and made perfect sense for a ranger (but not limited to) to take levels in it. The Halla quest required a check against survival. Survival was also useful for determining what enemies the party was facing and at what level.

Maybe on the PC, but on the XBox 360, all it did was make some enemies pop up on the map a small distance away from you. And in a combat-heavy game like Dragon Age, telling you that there are some enemies ahead is like telling you that in the next five seconds you're about to inhale oxygen.

As for Pickpocketing, I had Leliana max out that skill (because I sure as hell wasn't going to waste much-needed early skill points on it) and the most she ever turned up were the conjoined twins known as F**K and ALL. You had to rob virtually everyone to get anything useful, and I'm not really interested in robbing everyone I meet. One, because it's tedious, and two, because I don't favour that brand of heroic sociopathy where the PC is entitled to everything of value not nailed down and on fire by virtue of being the main character.

And really, for all the effort you put into RPing a sneaky, survivalist ranger, you were really no better at the Survival skill than my City Elf who'd apparently never even seen a mabari before he arrived at Ostagar by the time we ended the game. We both could make birds sing with the snap of your fingers, but I only gained that skill so that I could clear some silly and arbitrary mid-game hurdle. Does that make you feel better about your choices?

It's at this point that I pick up a white cat and curl my lips into a sneer while I remark "You and I, we're not so different, Mr. Bond." And then you go to point a gun at me in the hopes that I'll monologue the details of my evil plan, but you suddenly find that you're also stroking an identical white cat because the only difference between our assembly line PCs is headcanon and denial.

We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings.

But there lies the difference it is my head canon and my denial. So I shall play my headcanon and  accept my denial.  Survival does quite nicely thank you on my PC. And as I said YMMV.