42 réponses à ce sujet

[SerTabris]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

But seriously, all the encounters we've had with Orlesians seem to point toward them actually speaking the same language as Fereldens, Free Marchers, Antivans, Rivainis, and Tevinters - with a few coloquial terms thrown in if you're an Antivan or an Orlesian like "maldecion!" or "Mais oui."

Hmmmm. No. 
http://social.biowar...839/308#5721833 

Rivain, Orlais, Tevinter... they all have their own languages. If we as characters are visiting these countries, there will undoubtedly be a large population that speaks Common, but if speaking to each other, there is NO reason why they would not be using their native tongue. So if in Orlais, we are walking through a marketplace, people will be chatting to one another in a language our character will (likely) have no knowledge of. 

So... do we want to just not understand any of that? Or would it not be cool to have a non-combat skill you can get to unlock Orlesian (dialgoue will remain the same, but subtitles would tranlsate), or Tevinter, or Dwarven, or Dalish?

If there is a 'Common' language, what would it be if not Orlesian or Tevinter? Those seem like the most likely candidates to me, as the only nations which have had large empires in Thedas in even semi-recent memory.

I would have liked subtitles for the elven language even in DA2, personally. Possibly one way to get language skills is to have a good relationship with a speaker of the language - I figured that after my Hawke lived with Merrill for three years, she should know at least a little bit of the elven language.

[brushyourteeth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

But seriously, all the encounters we've had with Orlesians seem to point toward them actually speaking the same language as Fereldens, Free Marchers, Antivans, Rivainis, and Tevinters - with a few coloquial terms thrown in if you're an Antivan or an Orlesian like "maldecion!" or "Mais oui."

Hmmmm. No. 
http://social.biowar...839/308#5721833 

Rivain, Orlais, Tevinter... they all have their own languages. If we as characters are visiting these countries, there will undoubtedly be a large population that speaks Common, but if speaking to each other, there is NO reason why they would not be using their native tongue. So if in Orlais, we are walking through a marketplace, people will be chatting to one another in a language our character will (likely) have no knowledge of. 

So... do we want to just not understand any of that? Or would it not be cool to have a non-combat skill you can get to unlock Orlesian (dialgoue will remain the same, but subtitles would tranlsate), or Tevinter, or Dwarven, or Dalish?

Hmmmm. That was put quite rudely.

Especially since I wasn't actually knocking your idea, just that it wasn't a necessary implementation for Orlais.

Still, if almost all Orlesians speak both languages on a day-to-day basis, your only need to translate would probably be if they are intentionally speaking their own language to leave you out of the conversation, or if (as Mr. Gaider said) you were out in the country.

There's also nothing saying that our protagonist won't be Orlesian, though your point would possibly still stand for Antiva.

[Fast Jimmy]

Brushyoteeth,

I apologize, looking back, that did come off as quite snarky. I had intended that response to be more pensive, since I had to look it up to be sure myself.

As someone who primarily speaks English and has travelled abroad multiple times, I know what it feels like to be somewhere foreign where it seems many (if not most) people can speak English, but another language is the native. And while people will speak to you, there is no reason why they would speak English to each other, and many times they would speak their language right in front of me in a way that demonstrated that they thought I did not speak an ounce of their language.

They could make our character Orlesian, but if they incorporate any other previous Companion other than Leliana, they probably wouldn't understand it, so your character might be in the position to translate all sorts of things. And, again, as you pointed out, there are many other languages other than Orlesian. Not to mention that if the map of the possible area of the next game includes areas including but not limited to Orlais, we could be traveling to multiple areas of the world.



I think it would be cool if, say, at the beginning of the game, we were in Ferelden, then later went to Orlais, then the finale could be somewhere like Tevinter or Antiva. A character could choose learn the Orlesian skill before going to Orlais and the Antivan skill before going to Antiva, but if the character learned Tevinter in the very beginning, they could encounter a quest or storyline they would have normally never found.

Or if their was a 'languages' skill tree, one would have to choose the 'decipher' type skill Realmzmaster discussed or if one wanted to have knowledge of a language spoken today. One would lead to more quests in ruins or libraries, the other would lead to quests in Noble's houses or marketplaces.

I can see lots of possibilities for quests, dialogue and replayabilty here... which is my recipe for why DA:O was so successful. If Bioware can't commit to making custom content for players in a smaller subset, they will lose that flair that drew soapy players into their franchises in the first place.

[MichaelStuart]

If I do have to learn a Language, I only hope that its done in a way that makes sense.
I really don't want it be simple as picking a skill on level up. I would prefer it be something like finding a book or teacher.

[Emzamination]

Face of Evil wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

People like you are why in Skyrim it is nearly possible to do a 100% complete playthru of everysingle quest, become the head of every single "guild", and do just about everything in the game in one go even when you have a character that it makes no sense to do those things with.

Having not played Skyrim myself, I'm not sure that I'm the best person to defend it … but why is that a problem? If it's the sort of thing that bothers you, then restrict your own damn gameplay. If you don't like the idea that you can be the head of every guild or complete every quest on a single playthrough, then ****ing don't. Are you a child that will press every big red button he sees unless someone slaps your hand away?

Amusing sub-topic is Amusing

But regarding the OP, I think you're aiming too low Jimmy, We should start learning to speak Orlesian, qunari and elven ourselves, not only in game.Our character is but a shell, we the player are its brain waves and thought patterns and as such it is our duty to learn these things, not the characters.

Modifié par Emzamination, 16 août 2012 - 03:48 .

[Pasquale1234]

Emzamination wrote...
But regarding the OP, I think you're aiming too low Jimmy, We should start learning to speak Orlesian, qunari and elven ourselves, not only in game.Our character is but a shell, we the player are its brain waves and thought patterns and as such it is our duty to learn these things, not the characters.

The only skills that should matter in an RPG are the character's.

My character =/= me.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 16 août 2012 - 03:59 .

[MichaelStuart]

Emzamination wrote...

But regarding the OP, I think you're aiming too low Jimmy, We should start learning to speak Orlesian, qunari and elven ourselves, not only in game.Our character is but a shell, we the player are its brain waves and thought patterns and as such it is our duty to learn these things, not the characters.

Brilliant idea.
Reminds of this choose your own adventure book I played once. Some of the people you meet spoke this wierd language, to understand what they were saying you had to translate using this alphabet in the front of the book.
In the end I felt more rewarded for doing it myself.

[brushyourteeth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Brushyoteeth,

I apologize, looking back, that did come off as quite snarky. I had intended that response to be more pensive, since I had to look it up to be sure myself.

As someone who primarily speaks English and has travelled abroad multiple times, I know what it feels like to be somewhere foreign where it seems many (if not most) people can speak English, but another language is the native. And while people will speak to you, there is no reason why they would speak English to each other, and many times they would speak their language right in front of me in a way that demonstrated that they thought I did not speak an ounce of their language.

They could make our character Orlesian, but if they incorporate any other previous Companion other than Leliana, they probably wouldn't understand it, so your character might be in the position to translate all sorts of things. And, again, as you pointed out, there are many other languages other than Orlesian. Not to mention that if the map of the possible area of the next game includes areas including but not limited to Orlais, we could be traveling to multiple areas of the world.



I think it would be cool if, say, at the beginning of the game, we were in Ferelden, then later went to Orlais, then the finale could be somewhere like Tevinter or Antiva. A character could choose learn the Orlesian skill before going to Orlais and the Antivan skill before going to Antiva, but if the character learned Tevinter in the very beginning, they could encounter a quest or storyline they would have normally never found.

Or if their was a 'languages' skill tree, one would have to choose the 'decipher' type skill Realmzmaster discussed or if one wanted to have knowledge of a language spoken today. One would lead to more quests in ruins or libraries, the other would lead to quests in Noble's houses or marketplaces.

I can see lots of possibilities for quests, dialogue and replayabilty here... which is my recipe for why DA:O was so successful. If Bioware can't commit to making custom content for players in a smaller subset, they will lose that flair that drew soapy players into their franchises in the first place.

No problem. I actually like and respect you more now than I ever have because if the "sorry" - you'd be amazed how many people can't do that. Or maybe you wouldn't - it's a sad world.

When you bring up the topic of a languages skill tree, that I think could definitely hold promise. In fact I'd be really interested in that and think it's a great idea - but in my heart of hearts I know it couldn't happen for DAIII, or IV, or maybe not even V. Why? Because Bioware can't seem to put the polish on the basics, for one thing. For another  M-Law's been talking about scaling back our specializations so that they can have a greater impact on our plot and gameplay. Of course that's not the same as what you're talking about, which would be available to all protags regardless of class. But the "scaling back" as a general notion seems like it'd be an obstacle to me.

In a game like Skyrim where you have tons of trees to choose from and you can put your points where you want, heck yes I would totally become a language specialist. Because there's nothing like that moment when you can walk up to the guy at the gas station and say "hey buddy, I know you're talking about my backside in creole."

Still, since you brought up the notion (which, like someone else has said - good on you for thinking outside the box) we'll probably have companions from all over - maybe there will be opportunities for them to translate, and if we haven't chosen the right person for our party we'll have missed that content? Kind of like bringing Fenris when you meet the Arishok, because that was fun.

[Fast Jimmy]

Hmmmm... I do like the concept, on the surface. But translating a written language that can be converted letter to letter to the Common language (in this case, English) would be tricky. It goes on the assumption that the language in question also has the exact same number of characters (or roughly so) as the English alphabet, that it uses the same grammatical and syntax structure and that it uses the same turns of phrases, etc. Having a conversion chart like what MichaelStuart is talking about would be possible, but doing it during the midst of actual conversation is REALLY hard.

Also, I'm going to argue against this with the "I am not my character, my character is not me" line of reasoning. I, the player, Fast Jimmy, have a rudimentary understanding of computer hardware, could give a decent explanation of high level particle physics and am familiar with the concepts of radio waves, electricity and immunology/microbiology. My character would have no way of knowing any of those things. My character, if a mage, has intricate knowledge of forces and theories I would have no way of comprehending, since they do not exist in my reality.

I'd rather an in-game mechanism, like a skill, determine if I can understand a language or not.


I am totally for MichaelStuart's suggestion of gaining this knowledge not by a standard level-up. Maybe non-combat skill points could be gained each level/every third level/etc., but then they could only be spent at teachers/libraries/trainers/etc.? That way, you could go the Thieves Guild and spend a point learning how to pick pocket, or you could go to the library and learn how to Decipher?

I think that would be a very intriguing way to go about diversifying your character and your gameplay experience.

[Anvos]

This almost seems like it might be too much work for too little gain.

Also honestly I'm not sure how many of the other languages would really be that useful.

Imperial/Tevintar: Really it seems like this is something along the lines of English to American English, considering Tevintar was the first power to span all those regions it seems likely common is a chantry variation of the tevintar dialect.  Saying that is so you don't really need much additional skill to learn tevintar and could easily be explained in one or two codex entries or a tevintar companion.

Elven: Debatably a dead language as even the elven language the dalish speak is incomplete and still largely has chunks of common in it.  Really would only be that useful for exploring ruins or making dalish think your cool.

Dwarven: Really it seems they have largly accepted common and their old language apears only to matter for a few additional dwarven terms in common and if your trying to make a deep roads expedition into a fallen thaig or city.

Qunari: Really the only truly valid language that could have broad uses, though it seems unlikely the qunari want people who aren't under the qun to know it.

Modifié par Anvos, 16 août 2012 - 05:29 .

[Emzamination]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
But
regarding the OP, I think you're aiming too low Jimmy, We should start
learning to speak Orlesian, qunari and elven ourselves, not only in
game.Our character is but a shell, we the player are its brain waves and
thought patterns and as such it is our duty to learn these things, not
the characters.

The only skills that should matter in an RPG are the character's.

My character =/= me.

 I think you are just not willing to Embrace fantasy linguistics, Pasquale1234 <_<

MichaelStuart wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

But regarding the OP, I think you're aiming too low Jimmy, We should start learning to speak Orlesian, qunari and elven ourselves, not only in game.Our character is but a shell, we the player are its brain waves and thought patterns and as such it is our duty to learn these things, not the characters.

Brilliant idea.
Reminds of this choose your own adventure book I played once. Some of the people you meet spoke this wierd language, to understand what they were saying you had to translate using this alphabet in the front of the book.
In the end I felt more rewarded for doing it myself.

Thanks

I wish we had a chart like that for the qunari language...or maybe we...no David does. hmmm

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Also,
I'm going to argue against this with the "I am not my character, my
character is not me" line of reasoning. I, the player, Fast Jimmy, have a
rudimentary understanding of computer hardware, could give a decent
explanation of high level particle physics and am familiar with the
concepts of radio waves, electricity and immunology/microbiology. My
character would have no way of knowing any of those things. My
character, if a mage, has intricate knowledge of forces and theories I
would have no way of comprehending, since they do not exist in my
reality.

I'd rather an in-game mechanism, like a skill, determine if I can understand a language or not.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with your argument there, jimmy.I feel your argument insults the whole basis of the Role playing Genre, mkay.The whole point of the role play element is for you the player to become one with the character which we call Immersion.This character can't light a cigar with his finger until you give it the skills and order it too.He may perform the action but you are the mind behind the decision to use it.You make every decision from skills, destination, LI (if you're into that) and Dialogue.Your character is nothing more than an empty pixelated vassel, the mind and body are not two seperate entities no matter what krios says

Modifié par Emzamination, 16 août 2012 - 05:43 .

[Pasquale1234]

Emzamination wrote...
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with your argument there, jimmy.I feel your argument insults the whole basis of the Role playing Genre, mkay.The whole point of the role play element is for you the player to become one with the character which we call Immersion.This character can't light a cigar with his finger until you give it the skills and order it too.He may perform the action but you are the mind behind the decision to use it.You make every decision from skills, destination, LI (if you're into that) and Dialogue.Your character is nothing more than an empty pixelated vassel, the mind and body are not two seperate entities no matter what krios says

You're conflating the player with the player-character.

Pretty common, I suppose, among those who tend to self-insert (and you may or may not play that way), but many role-players draw very distinct lines between the two.

What the player knows and does is often very different from what the character knows and does.  For example, the player often has meta-knowledge about the game that any given character in any given playthrough does not have.  The reverse can also be true.  I expect my character to know more about the world s/he inhabits than I do, especially in a new environment when I'm not familiar with the world lore.

The player is the puppeteer, the character the puppet.

[Emzamination]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with your argument there, jimmy.I feel your argument insults the whole basis of the Role playing Genre, mkay.The whole point of the role play element is for you the player to become one with the character which we call Immersion.This character can't light a cigar with his finger until you give it the skills and order it too.He may perform the action but you are the mind behind the decision to use it.You make every decision from skills, destination, LI (if you're into that) and Dialogue.Your character is nothing more than an empty pixelated vassel, the mind and body are not two seperate entities no matter what krios says

You're conflating the player with the player-character.

Pretty common, I suppose, among those who tend to self-insert (and you may or may not play that way), but many role-players draw very distinct lines between the two.

What the player knows and does is often very different from what the character knows and does.  For example, the player often has meta-knowledge about the game that any given character in any given playthrough does not have.  The reverse can also be true.  I expect my character to know more about the world s/he inhabits than I do, especially in a new environment when I'm not familiar with the world lore.

The player is the puppeteer, the character the puppet.

What do these Vassals truly know besides what our minds dictate they should know? Would a Vassal know they Hate the maker, always willing to help a soul in need or have feelings for a LI, if the player didn't dictate they posses this knowlege and feelings? The Dialogue is not written to say " Player directs Pasquale4321 to tell Oghren I've had enough of you, sod off" It is written to say "Oghren I've had enough of you, sod off", you are speaking as this Vassal, this Distinct line non sense is disingenuous and I'll hear no more of it. Players with such 'lines' just have a subconcious...Bah I'm done. 'Lines'...hmph

[Pasquale1234]

Emzamination wrote...
What do these Vassals truly know besides what our minds dictate they should know? Would a Vassal know they Hate the maker, always willing to help a soul in need or have feelings for a LI, if the player didn't dictate they posses this knowlege and feelings?

If a game allows me to define the character to that degree, then I can decide who s/he is and how s/he feels about all of those things.  That is not the same thing as who I am or how I feel, although it can be if I choose to play a self-insert.  It is designing a character in a way very similar to what writers do.

My protag might be a master at swordplay even though I'd likely suck at it.

The Dialogue is not written to say " Player directs Pasquale4321 to tell Oghren I've had enough of you, sod off" It is written to say "Oghren I've had enough of you, sod off",

Is there some reason why it should be written as you suggest?  Player and Pasquale4321 (sic) are the same person.

As the puppeteer (or director), I, the player, use the game's interface to tell the character (puppet) which dialogue line to deliver.

you are speaking as this Vassal, this Distinct line non sense is disingenuous and I'll hear no more of it. Players with such 'lines' just have a subconcious...Bah I'm done. 'Lines'...hmph

It is, of course, your choice, but suggesting that there's anything disingenuous about maintaining distinct lines between player and character is, well... disingenuous.

[Fast Jimmy]

I was just making the argument that meta-game knowledge, like consulting a piece of documentation that is shipped with the game, say, that teaches you how to speak Orlesian (given that it is, of course, a knock-off of French and would, in no way, be easy to learn at all...) there would be little to trigger said quests unless you somehow had to respond back in Orlesian...

...in which case, guess what would be the first walkthrough posted to GameFAQS.com the day of release? The correct sequence of dialogue choices/translations to get every "language" quest in the game.

I'd rather be limited by choosing (or earning) a skill, rather than just have a decoder ring. It may be more satisfying to do personally, but I think its more practical to just have a switch that gives us translation subtitles if my character meets certain criteria. This isn't Myst, after all. My concept of having languages at all is a risky venture already, no need to make it more inaccessible by requiring people learn crytography skills.

That's my opinion, at least.

[MichaelStuart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was just making the argument that meta-game knowledge, like consulting a piece of documentation that is shipped with the game, say, that teaches you how to speak Orlesian (given that it is, of course, a knock-off of French and would, in no way, be easy to learn at all...) there would be little to trigger said quests unless you somehow had to respond back in Orlesian...

...in which case, guess what would be the first walkthrough posted to GameFAQS.com the day of release? The correct sequence of dialogue choices/translations to get every "language" quest in the game.

I'd rather be limited by choosing (or earning) a skill, rather than just have a decoder ring. It may be more satisfying to do personally, but I think its more practical to just have a switch that gives us translation subtitles if my character meets certain criteria. This isn't Myst, after all. My concept of having languages at all is a risky venture already, no need to make it more inaccessible by requiring people learn crytography skills.

That's my opinion, at least.

They can always add a option to bypass if people can't work it out

example
NPC:Vous ne pouvez pas entrer ici
Player: (murder knives the guard)

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I'd rather be limited by choosing (or earning) a skill, rather than just have a decoder ring.

+1

It also helps to keep the lines between player and character distinct.

Not to change the subject, but that's one of the issues I've had with some of the puzzles in these games.  There aren't any int or wis stats for the character; it's entirely up to the player to be successful in solving them.  In a cRPG I played back in the 80s (Phantasie, by SSI), the character found a scroll in a dungeon with text like sseeewwsseennn, or something along those lines, and it was the directions to get through a room in another heavily trapped dungeon.

No, I'm not saying the puzzles are too difficult or that I don't like them - only suggesting that it would be nice if the game gave us some reason to think the character would know how to solve them.

[Fast Jimmy]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was just making the argument that meta-game knowledge, like consulting a piece of documentation that is shipped with the game, say, that teaches you how to speak Orlesian (given that it is, of course, a knock-off of French and would, in no way, be easy to learn at all...) there would be little to trigger said quests unless you somehow had to respond back in Orlesian...

...in which case, guess what would be the first walkthrough posted to GameFAQS.com the day of release? The correct sequence of dialogue choices/translations to get every "language" quest in the game.

I'd rather be limited by choosing (or earning) a skill, rather than just have a decoder ring. It may be more satisfying to do personally, but I think its more practical to just have a switch that gives us translation subtitles if my character meets certain criteria. This isn't Myst, after all. My concept of having languages at all is a risky venture already, no need to make it more inaccessible by requiring people learn crytography skills.

That's my opinion, at least.

They can always add a option to bypass if people can't work it out

example
NPC:Vous ne pouvez pas entrer ici
Player: (murder knives the guard)

Well, again, I think the problem is that it is way too easy to cheat with if you rely on player skill alone... because it will result in a huge majority of people relying on their skill to pull up a walkthrough within five minutes of trying. Not that I mind people doing that, but it seems like if there is going to be a larger amount of work than is tangential to the pay off, people will just throw up their hands after their first one. And, in a game where MANY people might be speaking to each other in different languages outside of the Common the PC would know (standardly), then it might be better just to have a skill that can activate subtitles.

However, possibly if they did an alphabet/translation section with ancient texts in a ruin, as opposed to a Decipher skill, this would work more fluidly? That way, people can legitimately see the writing and be able to compare it to a key or legend, like what we saw with the Skyrim Dragon language in their promos.

I'm personally just hoping for non-combat skills in general, really. I just think language would be a cool one considering we are visiting foreign lands. This could even something like in Origins, where you loaded one character up with theif skills, another up with herb skills, etc. One character could be your designated Orlesian translator, one your Tevinter (Tevinterese? Teventeroon?), one could by your Dalish, etc. And if you have a companion with a certain background, they could possibly come with that skill preset? Of course, you'd need that specific companion in your party if you wanted to pick up on that language translation. So there would be some metagaming (but also practical in-game lore reasons) to keep that companion in your party at all times if you are in their respective area/city/country...?