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The (Questionable) Necessity of Love Scenes


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#1
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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 Warning: long!

Alright, so the debate still rages on this topic, and I thought I'd share some insight from a wonderful book I found called The Handbook of Novel Writing, created by Writer's Digest (available on Amazon, Google, eBay, and Barnes & Noble, to name a few places).

The book is basically a series of articles written by actual authors about various things--from delving into the setting, characters, or plot of your novel, to a small overview of the writing industry. The article I'm going to be focusing on is called "How To Write Believable Love Scenes," copyright 1990 by David Groff.

I'd initially planned to use the whole article, but after being unable to find it online anywhere I began to suspect that doing so would be copyright infringement. So I only intend to copy relevant paragraphs here.

What are the challenges you face when writing a love scene? For a scene to work for me as an editor--or for most readers--I think a writer must meet these criteria:

  • You should write the scene, and place it, so that it is central to the story and advances the plot;
  • You should shape the scene to maintain the novel's conflict and tension;
  • You should write a scene that is fair to the story's characters, that is consistent with their personalities, and increases the reader's understanding of what makes them work as human beings;
  • You must find a language of relating that is fresh, original, appropriately rich and evocative, consistent with the novel, and that is neither pornographic nor overmodest, neither clinical nor cliched.

Now, some of these don't fit perfectly because of the differences between books and video games, but I'll try to relate them as best I can, and of course feel free to disagree with me on my interpretations.

1. Central to the plot. This is one point where the ME series love scenes do really well. Where they are placed--before the climax of the story--is designed to integrate it with the plot. The scene signifies more than Shepard getting it on; it shows the hero of the galaxy preparing for the final fight, in his own way.

Now, the DA games, not so much. The scenes happen, in DA:O, at any time in the game, and for DA ][ in the early-to-midst of the second act. The love scenes have no real purpose in the story.

However, this is one place where I feel the difference between the two things, a book and a video game, specifically an RPG, makes a difference. I feel we can substitue, instead of plot, that the scene must in some way help define the characters, PC and LI.

Now I already inadvertantly showed this for ME: one purpose of the love scene is to show that Shepard is "preparing" for the final, possibly fatal mission by getting things done, wrapping up loose ends, etc. A personal climax (get your minds out of the gutter; personal in the sense of "directly to do with Shepard," not what's in his/her pants) before a main plot climax, if you will.

But I'm having trouble seeing the purpose of it in DA. It doesn't appear to add anything to our character, because nothing changes. Our Warden is the same person after the scene as he/she is before. There's nothing defining about it.

You'll notice I specified  the Warden (and thus DA:O) there. I did it for two reasons. One, because DA ][ doesn't actually have love scenes, just a fade to black, and two, because I believe DA ][ somewhat fulfills the requirements. I have only done an Isabella romance so far, but everything before and after the event--especially after--greatly defines Hawke and Isabella. I may be mistaken, but I believe it's literally right after the scene when Hawke brings up love and Isabella protests that they were "just rutting." A similar dialoge appears with Morrigan, but it is not associated with the sex scene in any way, thus I can't consider it valid. Irregardless (:devil:), Isabella, and Hawke depending on your choices, is/are better defined through this scene.

The interesting (ironic?) part of this is that the game that has the better or more applicable scenes technically doesn't have the love scenes, just a fade to black.


The above pretty much covers most of those bullet points, in some way shape or form, barring the final.

2. Appropriate language: this is an obvious place where the definition used here cannot be strictly applied to video games, as they don't have descriptions of a love scene, they simply have the scene. However, the descriptions may still be used, one in particular: "neither pornographic nor overmodest."

Miriam-Webster says...

Pornography: 
the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement.


Now, one might say "Of course they aren't intended to cause sexual excitement, that's just absurd!" However, if they aren't--what are they for then? If they aren't for the reasons listed above (advancing the plot, better defining characters), then I can't think of a reason, other than porn, for them.

The purpose of the scene must be examined minutely.


The Necessity of Love

When do you need a love scene? That depends, of course, on how integral a physical relationship is to the story you're telling. Many popular novels are more or less required to contain at least one sexual encounter of some explicitness. The beautiful model and the celebrity doctor, the weary CIA agent and the lovely Romanian who may be a spy, the Anglo-Irish countess and the Cavalier--all must come together in a kiss, or more. In so-called literary novels--novels where launguage and theme are as primary as the plot--love scenes are more often optional, or optional in their graphic content, since they are not necessarily part of what attracts readers to those books.

But for both literary and popular fiction, the rule is the same: Don't ever write a love scene just for the sake of sex. Don't do it to thrill the reader or provide a break in the action. A good physical encounter in a novel has a greater raison d'etre; it propels a story and reveals the characters. in this sense, a love scene is like a song in a good, contemporary Broadway musical: It tells a story all by itself and is an opportunity to demonstrate motivations, intentions, dreams, beliefs, tensions. A good love scene is not static but kinetic. If you're writing a physical scene just to turn readers on, they'll feel cheated in the long run. As a serious writer of fiction, your job is to enlighten your readers--not to turn them on but to make them feel.

...

Sex scenes do not stand alone. When they work well in a novel, they are the natural culmination of what has gone before--a release of tension that has been building between two characters, a complication or expression of emotions, a unification of two demanding elements of the story. Imagine how different Women in Love would read if Rupert and Ursula had had sex on page ten instead of 354 [a reference to the part I skipped].

One way to find out if a love scene is necessary is simply to delete it. Do Dirk and Amber [his imaginary examples for the article] really need to come together at this point in the story? You must ask yourself how a love scene fits into the overall scheme of your novel and how it contributes to the plot. Does sex between Dirk and Amber pull them together or push them apart? Does evil Detective Bluenose come between them? There is nothing frivolous in your decision, because a well-placed, well-paced love scene can be one of the most effective ways to raise the emotional stakes of your novel and bring it to vivid life.


This is crystal clear, is it not? I don't feel any interpretation is necessary. I feel DA:O fails on this level, and DA ][ is dubious (in the sense of how necessary the scene is), though it is handled well.

I will take one final excerpt:

My third precept for creating fresh language [the author is speaking of the language used in a love scene] is to remember that when it comes to sex and love, the readers imaginations do a great deal of the work; all the readers need is a nudge. If you mention how Dirk nuzzles Amber's throat and moves up to breathe swifty in her ear, your readers will feel the shiver. You need to give readers only the signals to create the ambiance of a love scene. of course, you must make sure your signals are the most effective ones possible. Gypsy Rose Lee [apparently a burlesque entertainer] once said the glimpse of a black net stocking was sexier than a bare leg could ever be. Keep that in mind. When it comes to sex, less is usually more--at least on the page.


I believe this can relate to nudity in sex scenes. Less is more. I'm not saying we need smallclothes on--I'm saying we don't need nudity. It has been mentioned quite a bit that one idea is to have the characters nude, but use clever camera angles to occlude naughty bits. I agree with this, if the love scene is even necessary at all (which this article makes me doubt).


Opinions?

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 16 août 2012 - 08:51 .


#2
Goneaviking

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To my mind the biggest handicap to romance in Dragon Age is the relative lack of structure in the storyline.

Characters can run around doing most of the stories in whatever order they like, skipping some if they choose to and (in Origins) you get the relationship when your popularity ratings hit a certain level - independant of what's happening in the story.

Dragon Age 2 was better in this respect, particuliarly because the relationships involved discussion about how they were progressing in ways that were distinct for the characters (Isabella didn't want to commit until act 3, but Merrill immediately moved into the mansion - don't like either Fenris or Anders so I never romanced either.)

If the storyline was held together more tightly, and the relationships developed over a series of scripted encounters instead of just picking the flirt button and then jumping straight into bed I believe that would constitute an improvement.

At the very least I'd like to avoid seeing those creepy eyes that always appear in the DA:O sex scenes. Eeurgh.

#3
Knight of Dane

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As long as the romances are optional they won't be build properly into the main story. If a romance was canon like, say the Witcher, it is much more easier to include it aside from banter and such.

#4
whykikyouwhy

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@OP - Is it that you are questioning love scenes, or the inclusion of romance in general?

While DA allows for romances to occur, they're optional arcs. Sure, engaging in a romance can open up different dialogue and thus some world building, but to get from the beginning of either game to the end battle and wrap-up, a player doesn't need to have his/her PC pursue a LI. In that regard, romance and love scenes are not central to the plot, but they can greatly enhance the player's perspective on the overall narrative - their loyalty and allegiance to the companions, their interest in the state of the characters and their world.

Love scenes may not uniformally add anything to our characters, but that's where our own interpretation comes into play. Depending on how you may role-play Hawke or the Warden, a romanced PC may be very much altered by having a romance. Because that's going to vary based on the individual, what I think we see more of is how a romance with the PC influences/affects the LI and other companions. And as such, there are ripple effects and small changes in the game world.

Having mandatory love scenes or a requirement to romance a character is something that has been part of other games, and perhaps for those tales, it works. But if you, as the player and as seeing-thru-your-character, aren't interested in romancing the prince or the princess or whoever? Even if it's necessary to save the kingdom, get to the next level, etc and so forth? Well, then you're going to be there plodding through and not really caring about that segment of the game. With the way romances and love scenes are handled in DA games, the player is allowed to measure his/her own investment into that aspect of their character's life.

People are going to go back and forth about the pros and cons of the fade to black, or how much skin should show. It's very subjective. Are love scenes necessary? The game world is visual, and as such, folks like to see the story unfold on the screen. We like to have a sense of what direction our characters are going in. If there's a romance, some sort of love scene should probably be shown, even if it's a lead-in to implied sexytimes or some profession of love. The scenes act as milestones. The trick I think, is finding a way to inject the scenes so that they make sense for the romance itself and the characters involved. I felt that DA2 did this well, both in how the scenes started and then the post-sexytimes dialogue.

Love scenes don't necessarily have to be some domino dropping in line for the plot, for whatever master plan is being enacted, but they should at least add to the experience of the player, imo. 

#5
Guest_DuckSoup_*

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I love the love. All day, Err day.

#6
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

@OP - Is it that you are questioning love scenes, or the inclusion of romance in general?


Questioning the purpose of the scene. Questioning what it adds, really. I feel DA ][ did it well.

#7
Arch1eviathan

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Too many words. I didn't read it but I still love you OP!

#8
Reznore57

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I kind of don't believe in a set formula for any type of art.

I'm not saying it's wrong , but if you write a love scene just like you would cook something looking at your recipe book ...

In dao/Da2 , I never felt like the love scene/or lack of was a central point.
It's mostly there to show you , well you score ...it's just to show the romance is moving on ...for some character , the sex is a turning point.
Fenris freak out , Merrill fell in love etc....

But the act in itself is pretty irrelevant ...and again when you write you can describe what a character is feeling etc...;you can be really precise about what's going on , if you want to say there's a little more than sex going on here.

It's really not that easy in a video game ,which is visual , so either you concentrate on making it a piece of art via a beautiful setting , different camera angle , whatever ...and it can be really cheesy if not done well.

Or you concentrate on the character , their expression etc...and since it's a video game and not a movie with real actor , it's not that easy neither.

Besides I'm not a big fan of sex scene , your pc is supposed to be in it , it's something i prefer left for the imagination .
I don't need no beautiful love scene , even if super well done.
Normal people having sex just look ridiculous , you make funny face , you take wierd position ...
You usually don't look like the big hero making love to the babe with huge breast under the moonlight.
So when i see , in general , love scene , they feel really unreal and unnatural.

My point is if The DA team has no message to pass , no point to make , or ain't gonna make the sex some kind of piece of art , just leave it to the player's imagination.

#9
MissOuJ

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From where I'm standing, it looks like you're comparing a two completely different forms of media, and trying to force one into the conventions of the other.

Like, one of the most quoted writing instructions is "show, don't tell"? Works great in many forms of media, but not so much in video games. Like in the Mark of the Assassin DLC: Tallis is introduced to us by showing what an awesome fighter she is. It would work wonderfully in a TV series or a movie, but there I'm sitting with a controller in my lap, twiddling my thumbs and wondering when I get to play - and when I do Tallis does **** all damage since you can't level her up until after the fight following the cut-scene, despite her kicking a** just seconds before.

I think we have a similar issue here. Who's to say that the love scenes in DAO & DA2 don't advance character growth and cause unforeseen thension (like Morrigan's ritual for Alistair-mancing Warden, or the way Anders-mancing Hawke reacts to Chantry explosion [because, let me tell you, FEELINGS were aplenty]).

When it comes to the "timing", I think I have to (maybe, a bit) agree. In DAO it's a bit weird you can just hop in the (proverbal) bed with the LI of your choice, but I think the timing is pretty much spot on in DA2 - you have the rising tension/courting/whateveryouwannacallit in Act 1, the love scene in Act 2 and the "maturing" of the relationship in Act 3. And about the love scenes themselves... I strongly feel that a player would (potentially) lose a lot if the love scenes were taken away, in DA2 at least - the... umm... "pillow talk" after the deed in DAO isn't particularly enlighting or character building, but in DA2, if you romance Merrill/Anders/Fenris/Isabela both the romance scenes and the scenes after give us valuable insight into their personalities, their relationships with Hawke and how it affects them personally. For example: you can learn about Anders' fears about falling in love with Hawke because of how lovers were often collateral in the Circle; or about Isabela's experience with commitment and how she views love. And the best thing about it is that it carries across so well: it's in party banter, it comes up in casual conversation with other party members etc... All in all, your gaming experience is very different is you romance Anders or Merrill or don't romance anyone at all - or at least your Hawke will be a very different person, and the love scenes play into that. And since we're talking about RPGs, I wouldn't call features that alter the gaming experience pointless.

Actually, there's an article about DA2 romances Yahtzee wrote about his DA2 playthrough, although it's more about roleplaying a gay character, but I think it's also an interesting take on the "roleplay romance" and how it affects a player and even his/her playstyle. It's a quick read, and I wholeheartedly recommend reading it!

On the matter of nudity we're in complete agreement. Love scenes are supposted to be about intimacy between the two characters, not about the physical act of sex.

Anyway, that's my two - rather long - cents.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 16 août 2012 - 01:28 .


#10
EricHVela

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EA is the Joe Camel of games. They purposely target a young crowd with a mature rating and produce content that the targeted age-range thinks is mature.

We end up with unrealistic violence, simple straight-forward stories and cheap sex scenes. We also end up with few-to-no consequences for choices that the targeted audience expects from life at that age.

Any of this sound familiar?

It's not a matter of what does it actually add to the story. It's a matter of what will get kids to buy the thing (or, rather, have their parents buy it for them).

#11
ObserverStatus

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...so OP, are you saying that what made that video you showed me last night was that the love scene was necessary to the plot?

#12
jillabender

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@EntropicAngel, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the romances in DA:O – I felt that they did add to the game. They were well written, and made each of the love interests feel more fleshed out and multi-dimensional.

Although the story didn't always change dramatically depending on whom the main character romanced, I found that the romances provided me with just enough detail to allow me to vividly imagine my character's demeanour and emotions when interacting with his or her love interest. And that, in turn, made my characters feel more vivid and alive to me, making me more invested in the story.

For example, my male Dalish rogue flirted with Morrigan. He thought that she only wanted a casual fling, but when he took up with Zevran and she confronted him about it, he realized that Morrigan wanted more from him than he could give, and that Zevran was the one he really wanted to be with. Although they broke up on friendly terms, the fact that he dumped her for Zevran made his friendship with Morrigan feel wonderfully complicated – especially when she convinced him to do the Dark Ritual.

That's just one example of why I personally like the fact that DA:O allows the player to decide exactly when and how the Warden's relationship with a companion will progress to the next level – it gives me more freedom to define for myself the significance of my characters' relationships to the overall story arc.

I had fun playing through the romances in DA2, but I found myself frustrated by their limitations. The dialogue in the romance scenes featured some well-written lines, but the fact that most of the conversations with the companion characters focused on a single facet of their personality made them feel a bit one-note to me at times.

Also, because the writers had to ensure that each romance scene didn't feel too out of place with either a diplomatic, sarcastic or aggressive Hawke, without having the time to create significantly different content for each version of Hawke, some of the DA2 romance scenes ended up feeling a bit generic to me.

Of course, that's just my experience – we all have our own ways of approaching romances in RPGs. Perhaps the reason I wasn't able to enjoy the DA2 romances quite as much as the DA:O romances was that Hawke felt more like Bioware's character than mine, and that made me less motivated to use my imagination to flesh out the significance of his or her relationships. But again, maybe that's just me.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 août 2012 - 05:56 .


#13
MissOuJ

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jillabender wrote...

@EntropicAngel, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the romances in DA:O – I felt that they did add to the game. They were well written, and made each of the love interests feel more fleshed out and multi-dimensional.

Although the story didn't always change dramatically depending on whom the main character romanced, I found that the romances provided me with just enough detail to allow me to vividly imagine my character's demeanour and emotions when interacting with his or her love interest. And that, in turn, made my characters feel more vivid and alive to me, making me more invested in the story.

For example, my male Dalish rogue flirted with Morrigan. He thought that she only wanted a casual fling, but when he took up with Zevran and she confronted him about it, he realized that Morrigan wanted more from him than he could give, and that Zevran was the one he really wanted to be with. Although they broke up on friendly terms, the fact that he dumped her for Zevran made his friendship with Morrigan feel wonderfully complicated – especially when she convinced him to do the Dark Ritual.

That's just one example of why I personally like the fact that DA:O allows the player to decide exactly when and how the Warden's relationship with a companion will progress to the next level – it gives me more freedom to define for myself the significance of my characters' relationships to the overall story arc.


I completely agree, but all this happens outside the love scene itself, which is pretty much just characters fumbling about in their small-clothes and blacking out a lot. I quite liked the way relationships (both romantic and platonic) were portrayed in DAO, but I wasn't sold on the love scene itself.

DA2, on the other hand, did better on the love scene front, if for no other reason then because all the scenes were different and highlighted the differences between the LI's. For example, Isabela's love scene, from the music to the pre-coital disarming tells so much about Isabela as a character. Same with Fenris' and Anders' love scenes: Fenris is very physical but in the end shows he's hesitant to share his problems with Hawke and make himself vulnerable, whereas Anders is tentative and even shy, but absolutely honest and sincere about his feelings. In DAO, on the other hand, you get exactly the same love scenes for Morrigan and Alistair - two completely different people who experience love and intimacy from two different perspectives: their dialogue tells us this, so why not the love scene itself as well?

I do agree DAO lets you to set your own pace with the relationship a lot better, but when it comes to the love scenes themselves, it's my personal opinnion DA2 beats DAO hands down.

#14
jillabender

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MissOuJ wrote...

I quite liked the way relationships (both romantic and platonic) were portrayed in DAO, but I wasn't sold on the love scene itself.

[…]

In DAO, on the other hand, you get exactly the same love scenes for Morrigan and Alistair - two completely different people who experience love and intimacy from two different perspectives: their dialogue tells us this, so why not the love scene itself as well?

I do agree DAO lets you to set your own pace with the relationship a lot better, but when it comes to the love scenes themselves, it's my personal opinnion DA2 beats DAO hands down.


That's a fair point – I agree that the cinematic presentation of the sex scenes in DA:O could have been better.

I think you meant to say, though, that the sex scene for Morrigan and Leliana is the same – as someone who still plays DA:O regularly, I can confidently say that Alistair has a different scene, as does Zevran. ;)

Modifié par jillabender, 16 août 2012 - 09:52 .


#15
Fast Jimmy

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OP, to your point of "of course this is not pornography, this was not intended to cause sexual arousement! This was for character/narrative purposes!" I say... why can't they be both?

Contrary to popular belief, swinging nudity around like a stripper on a pole is not the most sexy thing in the world. Attitudes, behaviors, even funny idiosyncracies... these can be VASTLY more sexually enticing than a wet t-shirt contest. Showing this relationship between two people can give you a deeper respect for the characters at hand and their bond AND still be arousing.

I think possibly the line you want to make is the line between tasteful romance and smut, not pornography.

#16
jillabender

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

OP, to your point of "of course this is not pornography, this was not intended to cause sexual arousement! This was for character/narrative purposes!" I say... why can't they be both?

Contrary to popular belief, swinging nudity around like a stripper on a pole is not the most sexy thing in the world. Attitudes, behaviors, even funny idiosyncracies... these can be VASTLY more sexually enticing than a wet t-shirt contest. Showing this relationship between two people can give you a deeper respect for the characters at hand and their bond AND still be arousing.

I think possibly the line you want to make is the line between tasteful romance and smut, not pornography.


Well said – a well-done romance scene can be arousing and also add to a story in a meaningful way. There's nothing wrong with including a romance scene that's intended partly to arouse the viewer, reader, or player. I also agree that it's very possible for a scene to be erotic and arousing without showing any nudity – the arousal can come from the dialogue, and from falling in love with the characters.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 août 2012 - 09:53 .


#17
MissOuJ

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jillabender wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

I quite liked the way relationships (both romantic and platonic) were portrayed in DAO, but I wasn't sold on the love scene itself.

[…]

In DAO, on the other hand, you get exactly the same love scenes for Morrigan and Alistair - two completely different people who experience love and intimacy from two different perspectives: their dialogue tells us this, so why not the love scene itself as well?

I do agree DAO lets you to set your own pace with the relationship a lot better, but when it comes to the love scenes themselves, it's my personal opinnion DA2 beats DAO hands down.


That's a fair point – I agree that the cinematic presentation of the sex scenes in DA:O could have been better.

I think you meant to say, though, that the sex scene for Morrigan and Leliana is the same – as someone who still plays DA:O regularly, I can confidently say that Alistair has a different scene, as does Zevran. ;)


Could be - it's a while since I played DAO... And pretty much all I remember about the love scenes is underwear and a lot of black-outs, but I take your word for it.

:)

#18
SerTabris

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jillabender wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

OP, to your point of "of course this is not pornography, this was not intended to cause sexual arousement! This was for character/narrative purposes!" I say... why can't they be both?

Contrary to popular belief, swinging nudity around like a stripper on a pole is not the most sexy thing in the world. Attitudes, behaviors, even funny idiosyncracies... these can be VASTLY more sexually enticing than a wet t-shirt contest. Showing this relationship between two people can give you a deeper respect for the characters at hand and their bond AND still be arousing.

I think possibly the line you want to make is the line between tasteful romance and smut, not pornography.


Well said – a well-done romance scene can be arousing and also add to a story in a meaningful way. There's nothing wrong with including a romance scene that's intended partly to arouse the viewer, reader, or player. I also agree that it's very possible for a scene to be erotic and arousing without showing any nudity – the arousal can come from the dialogue, and from falling in love with the characters.


I agree, but I don't think that avoiding nudity is necessary. Personally, with the amount of graphic violence that's in the game, I find complaints about nudity kind of absurd.

#19
Goneaviking

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SerTabris wrote...

I agree, but I don't think that avoiding nudity is necessary. Personally, with the amount of graphic violence that's in the game, I find complaints about nudity kind of absurd.


Quoted because it shouldn't need to be said, but unfortunately does.

#20
jillabender

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SerTabris wrote…

I agree, but I don't think that avoiding nudity is necessary. Personally, with the amount of graphic violence that's in the game, I find complaints about nudity kind of absurd.


Oh, you'll never find me complaining about a bit of tasteful nudity. ;)
In fact, I'll admit to using the "Natural Bodies" mod that removes the underwear in the DA:O sex scenes. :happy:

Modifié par jillabender, 17 août 2012 - 02:30 .


#21
Crimson Moon

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I just wish the sex scenes are longer. Of course there would be nothing R-rated, just more touching and kissing. :P

#22
TamiBx

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Goneaviking wrote...

SerTabris wrote...

I agree, but I don't think that avoiding nudity is necessary. Personally, with the amount of graphic violence that's in the game, I find complaints about nudity kind of absurd.


Quoted because it shouldn't need to be said, but unfortunately does.


QFT.

Plus if we look at other video games (like ME3), they had a bit of nudity in their love scene and it was great. But some of the DA2 love scenes were a little...weird. The one with Fenris made me feel awkward (my poor Hawke was laying in her small clothes and he was all dressed and armed...poor Hawke)

#23
MissOuJ

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SerTabris wrote...

I agree, but I don't think that avoiding nudity is necessary. Personally, with the amount of graphic violence that's in the game, I find complaints about nudity kind of absurd.


I kinda disagree and agree at the same time. In my experience, graphic violence is usually used as a means to heighten the power fantasy in video games, as sick as it sounds. As in, cranial explosions left and right, people ending up in pieces: you sure showed them who's boss! Nudity, on the other hand, is there either to titillate or showcase when a character is vulnerable, or highlight the intimacy of the moment (see: ME1 love scenes). Someone mentioned Fenris' love sceene in DA2, and I think that scene in particular portrays this beautifully: Hawke is comfortable (or at least it looks like she is comfortable) hanging out pretty much naked after sex with Fenris because she trusts him and has no problems being vulnerable in his presence: Fenris, on the other hand, doesn't feel this way (probably because of the flash-backs), doesn't want to make himself vulnerable, is fully clothed and leaves, saying pretty much "Sorry, I can't do this".

Umm... I guess what I'm trying to say is that nudity, used in the right places for the right reasons is a powerful tool that shouldn't be discarded because some right-wing pundits will get their knickers in a twist and make up catchy little headlines like "sexbox?", but having it gratious amounts so there's always going to be a pair of boobs for the guys to stare at (see: Dante's Inferno/DNF) is just as immature and dumb.

#24
SerTabris

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MissOuJ wrote...

SerTabris wrote...

I agree, but I don't think that avoiding nudity is necessary. Personally, with the amount of graphic violence that's in the game, I find complaints about nudity kind of absurd.


I kinda disagree and agree at the same time. In my experience, graphic violence is usually used as a means to heighten the power fantasy in video games, as sick as it sounds. As in, cranial explosions left and right, people ending up in pieces: you sure showed them who's boss! Nudity, on the other hand, is there either to titillate or showcase when a character is vulnerable, or highlight the intimacy of the moment (see: ME1 love scenes). Someone mentioned Fenris' love sceene in DA2, and I think that scene in particular portrays this beautifully: Hawke is comfortable (or at least it looks like she is comfortable) hanging out pretty much naked after sex with Fenris because she trusts him and has no problems being vulnerable in his presence: Fenris, on the other hand, doesn't feel this way (probably because of the flash-backs), doesn't want to make himself vulnerable, is fully clothed and leaves, saying pretty much "Sorry, I can't do this".

Umm... I guess what I'm trying to say is that nudity, used in the right places for the right reasons is a powerful tool that shouldn't be discarded because some right-wing pundits will get their knickers in a twist and make up catchy little headlines like "sexbox?", but having it gratious amounts so there's always going to be a pair of boobs for the guys to stare at (see: Dante's Inferno/DNF) is just as immature and dumb.


I wasn't trying to suggest anything like Dante's Inferno, and certainly not DNF. I think Bioware has plenty of room from their present point before they cross over into a 'gratuitous' range. As you suggest, it should be presented in reasonable situations where it makes sense in the plot. I did not mean to imply that I would find any complaints about nudity absurd; I was only talking about the ones I had seen here, and nobody had gone that far in what I read (though I suppose I am of a disposition to avoid the areas where people might suggest that).

Also, if we're having nudity in love interest scenes, I think it should be mostly even between the male and female characters. I can see a few complaints with this - presumably from the same people who are terrified that Anders is flirting with them - but I think those have been responded to well (it actually pushed me into buying some of Gaider's books).

#25
Vox Draco

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The love-scene in ME1 was placed perfectly, I agree on this. The last calm before the storm, the last moment of "this is the right thing in the galaxy, the only thing worth fighting for"-moment, preceded by a wonderful scene of almost-kissing when the Normandy gets grounded...

The problem I have when comparing ME to DAO are the protagonists of each game. I personally think that Shepard and her story are much more predefined and set in stone than the Warden's...

The Warden has no voice, for example, so any kind of romance-scene for me will always be less thrilling and fully depends on what you make of it in your head. I usually try to "time" the moment when the sex-scene happens, for example after Alistair met his sister, or after he and his warden visited Ostagar once again...in fact, there are many places the sex-scene wouldfit if the story of DAO woud be written down...in DAO it is more up to your own imagination.

Does it forward the plot or characters? Well, again it depends on the player, I guess. For me, it is quite important that the Warden and her Alistair have these intimate moments. It forges them together, literally (yeah...), and deepens their relation up to the point where they (or at least my Warden) willfully deny the silly doctrine of the Wardens and choose Morrigan's ritual to survive both rather than sacrifice one...

Of course the sex-scene is not vital for this way of imagination, but it is a piece in it.

But again: Comparing the other more "protagonist"-focused or even books to DAO might not be the best way to judge the sex-scenes. DAO is too open still for it, the warden too much an "emtpy book" to fill the blanks with your own emotions and feelings. At least that's my impression