181 réponses à ce sujet

[yarpenthemad21]

@rmccowen

my bad you have right, I should calculate it from "damage" point of view.
still effective shields 1000 is like GE/GI with 3 or 4 in shields. tanky as hell.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cyonan wrote...

The main issue with Warp -> Throw is how unreliable it is to actually land either of those abilities on a target that's capable of dodging.

My current record is 10 Warps on a Phantom in a row that didn't land due to dodge, hand of denial, or the game just deciding that despite the Warp hitting, it wasn't going to apply the effect.

It probably would have been more, but at that point I gave up and figured my Eagle would just kill her faster than my Biotics would.

Non Phantoms I've gotten as high as 4-5 Warps before it sticks.

This has been going on since Rebellion.  Stopped playing AA for the most part because of this.  I mean, what's the point when there are numerous other Biotics whose powers have an instant effect and are much more reliable?

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

Asari = Stasis = Unique

I
will never choose Fury over my Asari adept. Especially now we have those
+40% headshot damage mod for paladin and carnifex.

Stasis is certainly very useful, but I find myself choosing Asari Vanguard most of the time for it.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 16 août 2012 - 02:02 .

[PresidentVorchaMasterBaits]

asari adept is one of my favs ever since playing the demo. she still rules. i've also been spending some quality time with my human sentinels lately and they are awesome too. the only time i get irritated with warp/throw combo is when the game lags. after hitting an enemy with warp, i'd hit them with throw 2 or 3 times before it finally detonates. really annoying but never encounter that problem when i'm hosting a lobby.

[Beerfish]

Her contributions certainly do not always end up on the score board but still a valuable character. I just started playing the asari vanguard again had a number of games in a row where I stasised everything in sight. My team mates were more than happy to snipe and or shoot all these freebie targets.

[Ramsutin]

You didn't consider two things:
1. It is more fun (AA) to play than phoenix or drell adept (well it is fun too to play with)
2. Nearly everyone has AA but some like me struggle to unlock new N7 characters

[Ronnie Blastoff]

Seerezaro wrote...

Human Sentinel isn't outclassed, The Asari is.

Human Sent still has to deal with the rediculous dodge mechanics but if built right 6/6/6/0/6 he's got so much health and shields he might as well be a krogan.

If they returned Stasis back to its old cooldown than the Asari wouldn't be so bad.

On bosses they do better than a fury, fury owns either on mooks. The deficiency isn't made up by stasis, it is by tech armor.

Glad to see theres still at least 1 person who isnt just talking about the game and actually playing it. The HS is still the best overall sentinel in the game.

[Yrian96]

Cyonan wrote...

The main issue with Warp -> Throw is how unreliable it is to actually land either of those abilities on a target that's capable of dodging.

My current record is 10 Warps on a Phantom in a row that didn't land due to dodge, hand of denial, or the game just deciding that despite the Warp hitting, it wasn't going to apply the effect.

It probably would have been more, but at that point I gave up and figured my Eagle would just kill her faster than my Biotics would.

Non Phantoms I've gotten as high as 4-5 Warps before it sticks.

Use Scorpion vs cerberus (if you have it otherwise anything that staggers) shoot phantom feet while they are staggered warp, shoot feet throw there you go BE.
Vs Geth or reapers simply do throw-warp-throw the first throw will make them dodge so that you warp will hit your warp staggers the enemy then the throw will hit because they are staggered and BAM BE...
Also just using another character vs Cerberus is probably a good idea since both Guardians and Phantoms can be annoying...

Hope it helped 

[rmccowen]

Taritu wrote...



Yes, compared to the Fury they are
underpowered. There is no question about this, because dark channel
can't be dodged and it jumps to a new host when you kill the first one.
This even before we get to annhialation field. And the Cerberus spam
classes can damage enemies without risking themselves.

Well, let's leave Smash spam out of this, since it relies on a very specific tactic to be reasonably effective. I agree that the best thing about Dark Channel (and Reave) is the lack of travel time and dodge; if Warp were faster, or if it were a hitscan power, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Viable is meaningless. I can finish gold with any class, even a Drellguard. Every class is viable.

To be more specific, I think the best comparison is removing the variance in class performance that's due to the player--that is, if you hold player skill constant, how do the classes compare? An AA or HS is going to be far more successful on Gold than a Drellguard--and, on a scale anchored by the Drellguard at one end and the GI on the other, the AA and HS just aren't that far from the Fury.

Anyone whot thinks biotics are good against Banshees hasn't tried to kill one with biotics only recently.  You'll wait all day.

My rules for Banshees, regardless of class, are:
1) Don't engage without a friend.
2) Don't engage without a weapon.
3) The Cobra launcher counts as both a weapon and a friend.

100RenegadePoints wrote...

I am pretty sure that the Asari Adept (+ M-77 Paladin) and Asari Vanguard (+ Cerberus Harrier) will do better against Cerberus than the N7 Fury. The Fury is better against the Reapers, against the Geth I would actually prefer the Asari, because you do not want to be in Annhilation Field range vs the Geth.

This is part of my point, too. Setting aside the Fury (which I don't have, as mentioned), I'd prefer to play the AA against Cerberus, the HS versus Reapers, and--given that it's a generally poor matchup for biotics--an orbiting cruiser's fire control officer against Geth.

But if I had to bring a biotic against Geth, I'd pick the Human Sentinel.

[Elder_Jefferson]

I was left at the end of a mission by myself with 6 or 7 marauders on Firebase White Silver (asari adept). I must have spent 5+ minutes spamming stasis, warp, and throw (mixing in short blasts from my hurricane). Between the dodges, misses, and faulty BE explosions on the throw, I think I dropped a total of 1 or 2.

Asari Adept is weak when left alone on a BUGGY mission. At least in my hands.
My shadow would have cleared them out in less than a minute, flat.

[Ice Cold J]

My AA is almost useless now. Which I almost CRY at b/c she was either the last or 2nd last character I got and looked forward to her so badly.
The human sentinel I pretty much never use. But my Asari? Man... those were the days of being a biotic dynamo wth a scoped Carnifex.

[Shampoohorn]

himegoto wrote...

The AA is a bit underwhelmed now because BE damage suck.

But if youre focusing on doing BE on a human sentinel, you're doing it wrong.

BE's don't suck even though they've been nerfed; they're part of any smart strategy with the human sentinel.  Your followup arguments and your old thread are a fairly minor variation most HS battle plans.  It's an oversimplified idea that an HS should be hiding behind large objects counting out their warp throw cooldowns.  Besides, tankiness and health/shields aren't necessary on Gold, proven -- to me at least -- by one of my friends who destroys all things with her zero-fitness AA+paladin.  Paladin?  Yeah well at this point in MP's evolution, nearly all classes should bring a high DPS or special feature gun (e.g. scorpion) to the party.

..........

Regardless, yes feature creep and power creep have taken some of the shine of the original characters.  To some extent I think Bioware wasn't prepared for the amount of interest in MP and failed to have a comprehensive long range DLC plan.  Or at least a plan that kept a sensible perspective on how to maintain equity between old classes and new classes. 

But keep in mind that this is their first MP effort and Bioware has been figuring things out as they go.  Their recent DLCs may be more reflective of how they want the game to be experienced.  While I'm sure they would make changes to some of the original characters, they are limited by their patch process (i.e. Microsoft and Sony) to make timely substantive changes to original content.  DLC content on the other hand is a bit like giving them a blank slate.

Plus they expect to get a revenue boost each time they release 'free' DLC, which no doubt puts the corporate (EA) emphasis on putting efforts into new content rather than putting out patches to improve the old stuff.  Efforts on putting out DLC may also explain why they are not devoting more time (people power) to testing and implementing weekly balance changes.

[/nearly baseless speculation]

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 16 août 2012 - 03:43 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Asari adept outlcassed by drelldept: I think not *spacemagic*

I think fury outclasses HS and AA tho... all them explosions and not dependant on warp which is tricky to hit things with due to lag.

[Holy-Hamster]

Cyonan wrote...

The main issue with Warp -> Throw is how unreliable it is to actually land either of those abilities on a target that's capable of dodging.

My current record is 10 Warps on a Phantom in a row that didn't land due to dodge, hand of denial, or the game just deciding that despite the Warp hitting, it wasn't going to apply the effect.

It probably would have been more, but at that point I gave up and figured my Eagle would just kill her faster than my Biotics would.

Non Phantoms I've gotten as high as 4-5 Warps before it sticks.

The real question is why are you using warps on a phantom before you stasis her? Dodging can maybe be a problem on pyros since you can't stasis, but anything else you just stasis then biotic explode it or shoot it to death.......

[Shampoohorn]

Holy-Hamster wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

...

My current record is 10 Warps on a Phantom in a row that didn't land due to dodge, hand of denial, or the game just deciding that despite the Warp hitting, it wasn't going to apply the effect.

....

The real question is why are you using warps on a phantom before you stasis her? Dodging can maybe be a problem on pyros since you can't stasis, but anything else you just stasis then biotic explode it or shoot it to death.......

Sounds like he was trying to test the mechanics of it.*  It's also a terrible strategy since phantoms can use your warps to restore their barriers. 

*Or maybe just stubborn.

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 16 août 2012 - 03:47 .

[Mazandus]

DoubleHell wrote...

Dodge rates vs warp and throw need to be reduced by at least half, or damage done by warp/throw/BE needs to be increased.

Not just warp and throw. Its hilarious to watch cryo blast fly off into space when there's a tropper literally in point blank range somehow "dodge" it. Same for the Bat Sent net.

[megawug]

I agree that AA is outclassed in terms of pure firepower, but she should have never been considered a "firepower" character to begin with. Early on, when there were fewer character choices, it seemed reasonable, but now the AA's role is much better suited for support.

Stasis and throw are both great for crowd control, so even if the score is lower, it doesn't mean the AA isn't useful. Setting up kills and debuffing aren't factored into the score.

[K_Os2]

Taritu wrote...

UR characters are a really bad idea.  Can you imagine the screams about getting appearance options from UR cards rather than an UR weapon or UR weapon upgrade.  OMG.

The Trollstore is pleased with that suggestion.

Modifié par K_Os2, 16 août 2012 - 04:07 .

[Mazandus]

They are still good classes, but as Shampoo and rmccowen have pointed out, the game has changed since March. And yes, some of it does leave you scratching your head.

Its pretty evident to me that enemies dodge powers much more frequently now than they did at launch, and that even when powers land and appear to be having an effect (enemy turns blue or is chilled) that the expected detonation just doesn't happen. The only conclusion I can draw is BW wasn't happy with our power spamming so they tweaked some things to reduce the effectiveness and efficiency of power spamming.

But then they go and release the Smashers, and then the Shadow, Slayer and Fury, 4 of which can hurl their powers through walls, in the case of the N7's often for 30m. 30 friggin meters. And in the case of the Fury, you no longer even need to prime for BE's, because you only walk next to an opponent to prime them for detonation. This makes me scratch my head.

Why make it more difficult/buggy to hit with powers that at least require the player to aim slightly and think about what they are doing, slightly, and then release characters who can hurl swaths of devastation through walls? Or release a character who need only use their "R2" (ps3) button? A planned class obsolescence and a very cynical push to drive some users to purchase packs with $? Or just some bugs that cannot be fixed? Otherwise I see no logic.

Its like buffing the Geth to prevent FBWGG farming. Sniper Primes, invisible flames with 50m reach, invincible Hunters, all it did was make the Geth cheap and annoying to fight on most maps, and hence the community farms FBW even more now, than we did before. Oh but now you can spam powers through walls. ???????

One hand is not talking to the other.

[JackieLee13]

It's disappointing to hear people continue to say that one race/class is supposed to be played a certain way, and if you're not playing it that way you're "doing it wrong".  When playing ANY character, you need to find your own comfort zone, and when you do, you may not feel that the char is necessarily outclassed by other chars.  But it's also a matter of what you're trying to accomplish with the char - do you care about score, squad success, etc?

When I was first getting familiar with the Justicar, I was using a Carnifex X for the 200% cooldown, and I liked her well enough.  It wasn't until I switched to the Harrier III for one match out of chance (just to tick someone off) that I found my comfort zone with her.  Sure the power cooldown % was much lower, but I kept tweaking the build until I found one I really liked.  Now I absolutely love my Justicar! It's a great mix *for me* between biotic powers and gun damage.  I survive better and contribute to squad success more.

Same with the Fury.  Every post said she needs to be spec'ed a certain way, and *always* use lighter weapons for 200% cooldown.  When I was first learning the Fury, I was doing what everyone else was saying was the "correct" way to use her.  However, I never felt I enjoyed using her with Carnifex X or even the Pirhana X as much as I enjoyed the Justicar.  Then I went back to the Harrier with the Fury, and now I love her.  The % cooldown can't get as high as the Justicar (because of the Justicar's 30% assault rifle reduction at Justicar lvl 6), but it's still a great mix *for me* between powers and guns.  Then recently I got the Hurricane I smg, so I tried that. It requires that I play the Fury more aggressively, but I like it just fine.

As far as the regular Asari Adept, I didn't have too much experience using her until recently.  I was in a group about to do a white/cerb/platinum, but my adept level was only 12.  However, since I'm most comfortable with adepts (compared to other classes), I wanted to use one but also wanted to contribute as much as possible to the group.  A close friend suggested I use the AA and spec for stasis bubble, so I did and the rest of my points I spent on other powers I thought would help the team.  So I spec'ed her, got out my Harrier, and then proceeded to pwn.  My lvl 12 AA topped the scoreboard by a wide margin with a squad that had three lvl 20 chars, including a Krogan Soldier, a Demolisher, and the other I believe was Salarian Infiltrator.  I didn't achieve too many biotic explosions, but I did tear into any and all phantoms that made the mistake of trying to flank us.  I don't enjoy using the AA as much as the Justicar or Fury so I really don't use her that much, but when used properly she can be very valuable to a team.

So, the point is I don't believe she's underpowered - she can hold her own.  But it also depends on how you want to use her.  If you're looking to solo and get a lot of explosions, then yes, other characters probably put her to shame.  But if you're looking to help your team get through a match, which is always my main goal, she is very good.  You need to find your own comfort zone when using her. In my experience, if I wasn't very happy with a particular char, I used a bigger gun. That made it easier to take down mobs, and also helped me learn how to use the char better.

[waltervolpatto]

I like fury and AJ, I find myself not playing the AA much...

Never played the HS....

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

Reave is a far better power than Dark Channel, if for no other reason than its capacity for AoE. Yeah, they serve different purposes and Dark Channel has the nifty perk of setting up multiple explosions.

Not in Multiplayer.

[Xaijin]

Couple of things:

The issue is not base BE usage, that's literally clamped down to a base damage range. The issue is DPEncounter. If you've maxed ranks in both warp and throw, and picked the BE specific evolutions, you're still forced to manually target or stun-pin with a weapon on the AA, which objectively means the AA is inherently doing less damage, simply by time constraints. Not only do you not have to do this on the Fury, but the reset time is literally as fast as you can make it happen when in AF range.

In terms of utility the Fury wins hands down. It's not even a contest. The fury combines the utility of an AJ with the spammery of an AA.

but oh noes, stasis, dogg!

Sorry, but a conditional utility power does not in any way shape or form tip the balance, no matter how annoying hunters and phantoms are. I'm sure everyone can tell stories of that AA who saved your ass at the last second with the vrrrrrm of dramatic justice, but the overall crown belongs to the Fury without question. Scaling splodies of death that can't be dodged and are 100% unconditional or factional are simply too strong.

I think there are ways to adjust this balance, and when I update The Legacy I'll be covering some Asari specific things that can help, but for the moment the N7s simply DO make several entire races redundant except for very specific circumstances, and it'll take some work to fix. Not impossible by any stretch, but it's still there.

Modifié par Xaijin, 16 août 2012 - 08:24 .

[himegoto]

rmccowen wrote...

himegoto wrote...

What makes human sentinel great is because of his sturdyness. And focusing on weapon damage maximizes his strength. As I said he has a completely different role than an AA.

Focusing on weapon damage minimizes his strengths by substantially delaying BEs, and maximizes his weaknesses. It's a trap.

Human Sentinel can get a +27.5% bonus to weapon damage from Alliance Training... and that's it. You can't spec out of cooldowns, so you're still limited by weapon weight. You don't gain any other bonuses--and there's a reason the list of classes that gain RoF bonuses is the same as the list of the best weapon classes in the game.

Furthermore, the build you're listing doesn't take advantage of the actual strengths of an HS over an AA--which is, in fact, the massive "sturdyness". 6 in Tech Armor is a good start, but 3 in Fitness is much less effective than 4 Fitness, and it's a different world in comparison to 6 in FItness.

...I'll expand this into a post of its own later today, I think.

I can only encourage you to try it.
While there are no one best build for everyone, the results I have with a weapon focused HS far outclassed a power focused one. I could not have made that claim or the details to provide without having tried both. And I have no reason to lie about my results.
I understand the build you are describing. I used mine with a 6/6/6/0/6 focused in defense and low cooldown BEs. It was definitely good. Best for a BE class but again after more game time with the HS I cannot consider him a BE based class anymore.

Try to think of him like a Turian sentinel and use his abilities according to enemies and situations. I still do the warp > throw against armored boss units. And I enjoy the huge armor debuff I get in between. With the right setup a brute on gold is down before a throw.
A weapon based HS yielding a rapid firing weapon aimed for headshots, or a reliable shotgun with stagger ability, also eliminates a huge problem everyone is having, and is a solution provided for the OP's thread - Cutting down the enemy dodge rate of Biotic abilities. Yes. You could use him the same way with a Talon X (So was one of my previous build with a 6/6/6/0/6), I just find what I considered better way of using him now.

Did a quick check on my cooldowns. (Harriar IX with 109+ CD) A 1.9 s throw and a 3.7s warp.
For comparsion, with a  200+ CD it is a 1.3s throw and a 2.6s warp.
My verdict is that you deal out more damage in that 1.1s from the weapon than the BE. Also a better weapon provides you a better answer to most situations aside from the armor debuff.

About putting 3 into fitness. I find that to strike a sweet balance. More defense is always welcomed but at the cost of offensive damage output is not worth it. Nowadays running a 6/6/5/6/3 which I consider to have the best results (Best offense).
Furthermore, definition of sturdyness doesnt only mean his health and shield. But also factoring in his combat roll. Off the top of my head the only other character with roll and over 1000 shields is the N7 Paladin. So I consider him a sturdy character.

I dont know if my whole build still seem alien to you. It is unconventional but all I can say is it provides me with the best result for the class.