182 réponses à ce sujet

[Ice Cold J]

CapnManx wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...


Then why SOOOOOOOO many "balance updates" and changes?

Because they don't believe they have gotten it right yet; if BioWare thought the balance was just right then their response to cries of 'OP' would be 'working as intended'.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

They've had too many to believe that they still consider this a work in progress.

I'm pretty good, so I think I'm a decent scale on how the game can be, but when characters are shooting bullets that curve around corners, can shoot while staggered and their gun isn't even facing you, and can fire off two rockets at a time? That's pretty bad.

[iplay222]

RGFrog wrote...

They call for nerfing because they believe it will bring balance, enjoyment, and longevity to the game.

They are wrong on all accounts.

Peeps are going to use whatever is the best combination no matter what. Nerfing that just means they will do one of two things: quit or move on to the next best thing. So, you gain one change for those that stick around. That's not balance. Forcing others to play the way you want isn't balance it's ego based selfishness. It's the child crying to his mother about big brother getting the better water gun until mom takes it away. The child merely learns that he/she can cry to someone else rather than learning to figure out how to enjoy things within the paradigm or change it on their own aka entitlement.

Enjoyment doesn't increase except for the nerfer that now believes everything is right with the world. This usually means they are making more points, getting more kills, seeing fewer "noob" players using what they consider OP builds. They don't get enjoyment from the game per se, but enjoyment from everyone else playing poorly so they feel better about their skillz.

But, don't tell a nerfduck that there's nothing keeping them from using another weapon, class or build. There should be absolutely no responsibility laid in their laps for ensuring enjoyment. Nor should they be bothered to think that others enjoy something they don't. It's the game's fault and BW's responsibility to make sure they are having fun and damn the opinion of the other 95%.

As for longevity. That pretty much takes care of itself. Players take breaks or outright quit when what they enjoy is taken away. A nerfduck won't ever quit as what they enjoy is for things to be taken away from others at their behest. However, for the game to have true longevity, BW would have to come up with new classes, kits, ideas on a regular basis. Otherwise, it's all just a grind.

Nerfducks do not come to the forums and post that they've found something new or some new fun way to do something. BW doesn't have the manpower/right team to do that either. So, the only thing there is to do since it's all the same enemy and same ai all the time is grind for credits and gamble vs. the random car generator. Can't nerf that and it's pretty much killing the game as grinding gets really old fast.

As for the Krysae... yep that was an OP weapon from the start but didn't deserve the 'balance' it received. Just as the inf. and TC were severely cut up. Neither of those were balance. Balance involves minor changes to dial in the intended use or to fit something in it's intended niche. Something nerfducks will never understand. To them, balance is nuking something to uselessness so they can feel good about their opinions.

http://i2.kym-cdn.co...downloader.php 

[CivvieWarrior20]

iplay222 wrote...


http://i2.kym-cdn.co...downloader.php 

You sir, are the reason why the internet is a bigger pit of scum and villany than Tatooine could ever aspire to be

[CapnManx]

Ice Cold J wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...


Then why SOOOOOOOO many "balance updates" and changes?

Because they don't believe they have gotten it right yet; if BioWare thought the balance was just right then their response to cries of 'OP' would be 'working as intended'.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

They've had too many to believe that they still consider this a work in progress.

So you think they just take our word for it?  That they don't check to see if it's OP for themselves before they give it a (admitedly, rather heavy handed) smack with the nerf bat?

Ice Cold J wrote...

I'm pretty good, so I think I'm a decent scale on how the game can be, but when characters are shooting bullets that curve around corners, can shoot while staggered and their gun isn't even facing you, and can fire off two rockets at a time? That's pretty bad.

Not sure I see your point here.  Are you suggesting that BioWare is unconcerned about balance because they haven't fixed lag issues?  I wouldn't think it's the same people that work on those.

Modifié par CapnManx, 16 août 2012 - 06:38 .

[YochiDekinai]

RGFrog wrote...

They call for nerfing because they believe it will bring balance, enjoyment, and longevity to the game.

They are wrong on all accounts.

Peeps are going to use whatever is the best combination no matter what. Nerfing that just means they will do one of two things: quit or move on to the next best thing. So, you gain one change for those that stick around. That's not balance. Forcing others to play the way you want isn't balance it's ego based selfishness. It's the child crying to his mother about big brother getting the better water gun until mom takes it away. The child merely learns that he/she can cry to someone else rather than learning to figure out how to enjoy things within the paradigm or change it on their own aka entitlement.

Enjoyment doesn't increase except for the nerfer that now believes everything is right with the world. This usually means they are making more points, getting more kills, seeing fewer "noob" players using what they consider OP builds. They don't get enjoyment from the game per se, but enjoyment from everyone else playing poorly so they feel better about their skillz.

But, don't tell a nerfduck that there's nothing keeping them from using another weapon, class or build. There should be absolutely no responsibility laid in their laps for ensuring enjoyment. Nor should they be bothered to think that others enjoy something they don't. It's the game's fault and BW's responsibility to make sure they are having fun and damn the opinion of the other 95%.

As for longevity. That pretty much takes care of itself. Players take breaks or outright quit when what they enjoy is taken away. A nerfduck won't ever quit as what they enjoy is for things to be taken away from others at their behest. However, for the game to have true longevity, BW would have to come up with new classes, kits, ideas on a regular basis. Otherwise, it's all just a grind.

Nerfducks do not come to the forums and post that they've found something new or some new fun way to do something. BW doesn't have the manpower/right team to do that either. So, the only thing there is to do since it's all the same enemy and same ai all the time is grind for credits and gamble vs. the random car generator. Can't nerf that and it's pretty much killing the game as grinding gets really old fast.

As for the Krysae... yep that was an OP weapon from the start but didn't deserve the 'balance' it received. Just as the inf. and TC were severely cut up. Neither of those were balance. Balance involves minor changes to dial in the intended use or to fit something in it's intended niche. Something nerfducks will never understand. To them, balance is nuking something to uselessness so they can feel good about their opinions.

 I especially agree with what I put in bolded letters. It's a never ending cycle.

[Wildfire172]

CapnManx wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...


Then why SOOOOOOOO many "balance updates" and changes?

Because they don't believe they have gotten it right yet; if BioWare thought the balance was just right then their response to cries of 'OP' would be 'working as intended'.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

They've had too many to believe that they still consider this a work in progress.

So you think they just take our word for it?  That they don't check to see if it's OP for themselves before they give it a (admitedly, rather heavy handed) smack with the nerf bat?

Ice Cold J wrote...

I'm pretty good, so I think I'm a decent scale on how the game can be, but when characters are shooting bullets that curve around corners, can shoot while staggered and their gun isn't even facing you, and can fire off two rockets at a time? That's pretty bad.

Not sure I see your point here.  Are you suggesting that BioWare is unconcerned about balance because they haven't fixed lag issues?  I wouldn't think it's the same people that work on those.

My understanding of the two rockets was that it was a way to challenge the player with the highest score considering both rockets do damage and tend to target the person with the highest score and host as well. But you say lag issues?

[Draining Dragon]

CivvieWarrior20 wrote...

Lathrim wrote...

*sighs*

Balance is important to add longetivity to a game. If every single weapon, character and power in the game has it's own uses, the game will be played for a longer amount of time as there is more variety. Then there's the challenge. Why have Gold and/or Platinum if it is easy when the correct weapon/character is used? It should be hard no matter what you use.

Doesn't that fall to the developers to make the content challenging not reducing the effectiveness of equipment/abilities?

There is no difference between nerfing the overpowered thing and buffing everything else and the enemies to its level. Nerfing is just faster, and gives the same result.

[xtorma]

Lathrim wrote...

*sighs*

Balance is important to add longetivity to a game. If every single weapon, character and power in the game has it's own uses, the game will be played for a longer amount of time as there is more variety. Then there's the challenge. Why have Gold and/or Platinum if it is easy when the correct weapon/character is used? It should be hard no matter what you use.

Then why not buff everything to match the "OP" weapons and characters? Simple.

It would remove the challenge from the higher difficulties. You'd fix that by buffing the enemies accordingly. Okay... that is a massive undertaking. Buffing 70~80% of the weapons/characters so they match the most powerful ones and then buffing enemies so it's not an easy-peasy game would require manpower the balance team does not possess.

This is hook , line and sinker falling for the "balance " schtick.

1. They could have avoided all the nerfing by doing a little homework. It isn't that difficult, non-professionals from the forums do it everytime they release a new weapon, and character set. They made the game, they are supposed to be the experts. If they were a little more proactive, they could avoid all these nerfs.

2. This massive undertaking you describe has already been done for 75% or so of the mobs in the game. It seems to be a whole lot easier to do than fixing the numerous bugs that plague the game. The buffing of mobs would not have been necessary if they had not introduced op classes and weapons.

As far as longevity is concerned , some people are leaving because of the nerfs, who is to say that it wouldn;t have been less if they had just done a little homework before introducing op stuff. The more this game ages , the more things I see that convince me that they have trouble thinking things through before they introduce it into the gameworld.

Introducing weapons and classes, that you are able to buy with real world money is a great thing for both EA, and the playerbase, but when you sell a new weapon or character to someone, and then make it weaker because you are too inept to do proper testing, drives more people away than you would by just leaving it as it is. It would make more sense to me to buff the inadaquate weapons to keep people spending, and work hard to get some kind of system in place that mitigates the chance of introducing unbalanced weapons and classes.

you can point all day at the eula and say "well you agreed to it!" and you would be 100% right, but people will leave the game more often for getting eula screwed in the name of balance , then they will by seeing 2 or 3 piranha's per match.

BW is 100% at fault for introducing op weapons and classes, but those who buy packs and fund the free dlc are the only ones paying for thier mistakes.

[ryoldschool]

Draining Dragon wrote...

CivvieWarrior20 wrote...

Lathrim wrote...

*sighs*

Balance is important to add longetivity to a game. If every single weapon, character and power in the game has it's own uses, the game will be played for a longer amount of time as there is more variety. Then there's the challenge. Why have Gold and/or Platinum if it is easy when the correct weapon/character is used? It should be hard no matter what you use.

Doesn't that fall to the developers to make the content challenging not reducing the effectiveness of equipment/abilities?

There is no difference between nerfing the overpowered thing and buffing everything else and the enemies to its level. Nerfing is just faster, and gives the same result.

Except if they overdo it < Typhoon >

[ryoldschool]

xtorma wrote...

Lathrim wrote...

*sighs*

Balance is important to add longetivity to a game. If every single weapon, character and power in the game has it's own uses, the game will be played for a longer amount of time as there is more variety. Then there's the challenge. Why have Gold and/or Platinum if it is easy when the correct weapon/character is used? It should be hard no matter what you use.

Then why not buff everything to match the "OP" weapons and characters? Simple.

It would remove the challenge from the higher difficulties. You'd fix that by buffing the enemies accordingly. Okay... that is a massive undertaking. Buffing 70~80% of the weapons/characters so they match the most powerful ones and then buffing enemies so it's not an easy-peasy game would require manpower the balance team does not possess.

This is hook , line and sinker falling for the "balance " schtick.

1. They could have avoided all the nerfing by doing a little homework. It isn't that difficult, non-professionals from the forums do it everytime they release a new weapon, and character set. They made the game, they are supposed to be the experts. If they were a little more proactive, they could avoid all these nerfs.

2. This massive undertaking you describe has already been done for 75% or so of the mobs in the game. It seems to be a whole lot easier to do than fixing the numerous bugs that plague the game. The buffing of mobs would not have been necessary if they had not introduced op classes and weapons.

As far as longevity is concerned , some people are leaving because of the nerfs, who is to say that it wouldn;t have been less if they had just done a little homework before introducing op stuff. The more this game ages , the more things I see that convince me that they have trouble thinking things through before they introduce it into the gameworld.

Introducing weapons and classes, that you are able to buy with real world money is a great thing for both EA, and the playerbase, but when you sell a new weapon or character to someone, and then make it weaker because you are too inept to do proper testing, drives more people away than you would by just leaving it as it is. It would make more sense to me to buff the inadaquate weapons to keep people spending, and work hard to get some kind of system in place that mitigates the chance of introducing unbalanced weapons and classes.

you can point all day at the eula and say "well you agreed to it!" and you would be 100% right, but people will leave the game more often for getting eula screwed in the name of balance , then they will by seeing 2 or 3 piranha's per match.

BW is 100% at fault for introducing op weapons and classes, but those who buy packs and fund the free dlc are the only ones paying for thier mistakes.

What he said.

[WizeMan305]

Everyone agrees that MP is limited but in opposition of balance changes people say it is best to let people play the strongest class, and strongest gun and leave them unchecked. Wouldn't that leave almost every match with one or two of the same characters? wouldn't that leave you day in and day out playing the same class, against the same 3 factions, on the same map using the same gun for and extended period of time. I mean you may as well play FBW day in day out.

The changes add variety, even though there are classes that still offer amazing dps, the balance changes give alternatives. Even though you don't have dps you have versatility, weapons that are op take away from that. When the Krysae came out it was light enough to be on any class, and it was in every game on every class. But considering it was stronger than any power people stopped using said powers. Even further players began using Infiltrators exclusively, with the Krysae in every match.

Without balance changes the game would be dead. Guns aren't being turned into peashooters, there are only 2 guns that have hit hard and both "nerfducks" and "carebares" agree. This is getting old, and most people who disagree with the balance changes never give any real substance behind their logic. Its like arguing with rocks.

[Poison_Berrie]

xtorma wrote...

1. They could have avoided all the nerfing by doing a little homework. It isn't that difficult, non-professionals from the forums do it everytime they release a new weapon, and character set. They made the game, they are supposed to be the experts. If they were a little more proactive, they could avoid all these nerfs.

This is not really being debatted. Everyone would agree that something that needs to be nerfed shouldn't have been in that position in the first place if they gave it more attention.
Mind you it's not fool proof, but it seems like certain things should have been caught before being released.

Still it has happened. So why shouldn't it be fixed?

2. This massive undertaking you describe has already been done for 75% or so of the mobs in the game. It seems to be a whole lot easier to do than fixing the numerous bugs that plague the game. The buffing of mobs would not have been necessary if they had not introduced op classes and weapons.

Wrong.
Buffing enemies is not a direct result of just one weapon. It's the direct result of a faction being noticably less difficult than the others. These changes to enemies would have happened on top of a theoretical buffing everything up to compensate for buffing everything else.
This is still the equivelant of increasing all other pumps and than increasing the flow because one pump was going too fast.

Also less than half of the enemies have recieved buffs. 

[Pavs719]

iplay222 wrote...

Pavs719 wrote...

nerfing is a load of bollocks, why they do it, is beyond me. I ask you in real wartime would they nerf weapons and missiles etc NO. I can understand now why multiplayer has bitten the dust and why there are no longer that many people in the lobby's, It is because of idiots asking for nerfs and for EA/bioware nerfing knowing you will spend more money for level IV ammo.

People in this thread have given you multiple reasons as to why nerfs/buffs happen, you just refuse to listen.

This isn't a real war, it is game, never compare the two.

Tell me please, if they added a weapon that did 99999999999 damage and wiped all enemies of the map in an instant and won you the game, would that be fun to you?

Don't Talk S... , I know its a game but earth is at war, so in essence it is the same principle, also in answer to your question, I like to be able to play the game as it was, I don't expect a gun which is a one kill, but come off it, they nerf to much, half the weapons are now useless.

[Pavs719]

I think you already know Lathrim, so why ask, plus you have played along side me, so you know my views (Coffey719).

Modifié par Pavs719, 16 août 2012 - 10:50 .

[CapnManx]

There are many guns that are useless or near useless (on harder difficulties at any rate); but that's not all because of nerfs. It's always been like that.

The fact that some guns could use a buff, doesn't mean that others couldn't do with a nerf.

Do sort of wish BioWare would take baby steps with their balance fixes though; instead of just laying in with the nerf bat.

Modifié par CapnManx, 16 août 2012 - 11:02 .

[Ice Cold J]

CapnManx wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

Sorry, I don't buy that.

They've had too many to believe that they still consider this a work in progress.

So you think they just take our word for it?  That they don't check to see if it's OP for themselves before they give it a (admitedly, rather heavy handed) smack with the nerf bat?

Ice Cold J wrote...

I'm pretty good, so I think I'm a decent scale on how the game can be, but when characters are shooting bullets that curve around corners, can shoot while staggered and their gun isn't even facing you, and can fire off two rockets at a time? That's pretty bad.

Not sure I see your point here.  Are you suggesting that BioWare is unconcerned about balance because they haven't fixed lag issues?  I wouldn't think it's the same people that work on those.

Sometimes, yes. The logic of some of these makes no sense. They seemed to amp up the difficulty. Then, when some STILL thought parts of it were "too easy" they basically cheated physics to make it almost impossible in some situations.

What I'm saying is that I think I represent the average-above average player (not great, but definitely not a noob). I've lost. I've adapted. It was never "easy" for me, but I managed to get extracted most of the time, even with randoms.
Now, the number of things that wind up killing me is ridiculous. Not ridiculous as in stupid. Ridiculous as in don't exist in any realm of sci-fi shooter. You still try to play smart and the game seems to cheat you by allowing the enemy to do things that would make Chuck Norris do a double-take.

[Kyerea]

Their score in relation to the scoreboard at the end of a match.

[The BLVD Knight]

Lathrim wrote...

Kyerea wrote...

Their score in relation to the scoreboard at the end of a match.

I still say the Geth Infiltrator needs to be nerfed. Now what?

Not sure why a nerf is required here. That could any character in that top spot just about. And most players can't rack up that score just because they're running an infiltrator...not sure why people won't just say that actual skill is involved before they go screaming "nerf!!!"Then you're not taking into account the other players play style, skill and about a hundred other factors that go onto any single game and individual scores. 

[The BLVD Knight]

That's not the point. I posted that picture because Kyerea said people want nerfs because of their position in the scoreboard. I doubled the other two's score with the GI, and I still say he needs to be nerfed. NOT because of that scoreboard.[/quote]

Well what I said still applies but it's not a dig on you per se. I'd be happy you were in my lobby. I mean your character is a "slayer", so in that pic you did your job. I mean if I had a bonkers game with my Salarian engineer I could put up maybe 95-100K but thats it...because I'm on decoy duty. People also need to respect the notion of classes and their limitations vs strengths I guess.

[Rokayt]

Why is this thread up.

There hasn't been a pro nerf thread for a week and a half.

Modifié par Rokayt, 16 août 2012 - 11:47 .