What I wrote above is my take on who I think Cole actually is. The real Cole died in the beginning of the book, just like the book said. See up above where I underlined the quote out of the book from the scene with Lambert.
I thought the book was great. I wouldn't mind having Cole as a Companion also. I've often thought Hawke was the warden as well. Because of what Flemeth says in DA2 that bodies are such limited things. I'm sure with blood magic it is possible somehow.
Cole: an Analysis - *SPOILERS!*
Débuté par
brushyourteeth
, août 16 2012 06:08
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#52
Posté 18 août 2012 - 05:23
brushyourteeth
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Your Warden can do that - mine's too busy killing off darkspawn and spending time with her King.ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
Once again this person who is impersonating the real Cole could be a warden, and due to torture, and abuse in the Spire's dungeons the images in his/her mind is all messed up. How many times in the first game did the Warden have to kill people out of mercy with his/her murder knife? Several times and even in Awakenings this happened, and the same thing with Hawke, Aveline, and Wesley in the beginning of DA2. Wardens do kill those with the taint out of mercy. Fits Cole to a tee. Sounds like the person who is impersonating the real Cole....blood magic has been used on them and their mind isn't right and this could be due to the taint if a warden. With Rhys I think Blood magic was used on him to get him to kill people an it could have been the other female mage in the story who was his friend and his once lover. She wanted freedom for the mages at any cost the same as Anders.
Seriously, though - while your theory is definitely interesting, I think David Gaider intended Cole to always be Cole - whether he's a human or a spirit that bonded with that human or whatever. I can't tell you how shocked I'd be to find that there was an actual person impersonating Cole - especially if they convinced Morrigan to keep using blood magic to make it happen for them. I think she'd slap me across the mouth if I asked her to do that (and that's if I could retrieve her from beyond the eluvian to do it!)
#54
Posté 18 août 2012 - 05:32
ElvaliaRavenHart
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Yes, but, Male Wardens do go through the mirror with Morrigan and we have no idea where that my be and for what purpose? Good or ill. With Morrigan and Flemeth anything is possible. Also don't forget what Leliana tells Cassandra at the end of DA2 it's in the Maker's hands. What a play on words. Ha, I guess so if the warden is in a dungeon in Val Royueax (sp).
The Cole at the end of the book with Lambert can't be Cole, scroll back up and see the quote out of the last scenes from the book, that is almost verbertim that another poster posted from the book. The Cole at the end who we think might kill Lambert can't be the real Cole. It's impossible. The person getting ready to kill Lambert saw the real Cole die at the beginning of the story. The Cole running around in the story is an imposter. I don't believe they are a spirit. I do think the same as a poster above it is a rogue warden. A warden with shadow abilities fits, a mage with spells from the arcane or spirit school also fits, and so do spirit, guardian, and Templar wardens. Cole as a warden fits any origin story.
The Cole at the end of the book with Lambert can't be Cole, scroll back up and see the quote out of the last scenes from the book, that is almost verbertim that another poster posted from the book. The Cole at the end who we think might kill Lambert can't be the real Cole. It's impossible. The person getting ready to kill Lambert saw the real Cole die at the beginning of the story. The Cole running around in the story is an imposter. I don't believe they are a spirit. I do think the same as a poster above it is a rogue warden. A warden with shadow abilities fits, a mage with spells from the arcane or spirit school also fits, and so do spirit, guardian, and Templar wardens. Cole as a warden fits any origin story.
Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 18 août 2012 - 05:42 .
#55
Posté 18 août 2012 - 05:42
LolaLei
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I thought the "Cole" that killed Lambert was a Demon? *Shrugs*
#56
Posté 18 août 2012 - 05:45
ElvaliaRavenHart
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LolaLei wrote...
I thought the "Cole" that killed Lambert was a Demon? *Shrugs*
This is what I thought while reading the book until the last page of the book. I think this is what Gaider wanted you to think when you read the book. The shocker is at the end of the book. You get a shocker and cliffhanger both at the end.
I'd also say it is possible that Cole while dying could have been possessed by a demon, just like what happened with Sophia Dryden at Vigil's keep. The way Gaider wrote the story...where Cole is concerned it's possible he is a demon. I'm not discounting that fact. I wanted to work out another possible ending for Cole and how it might work if cole is an impersonater aka captured Warden.
Here is another thought what if the missing wardens are in fact dead and the person/demon who possesses Cole is the dead Warden Commander? It's possible according to the lore of the game!
Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 18 août 2012 - 05:56 .
#57
Posté 18 août 2012 - 05:52
brushyourteeth
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Yeah, except that David Gaider would never have the Warden sneaking into mage prisons and murdering Seekers, because he knows that fans would go absolutely INSANE if he took that kind of power over the character out of their hands. So in that respect I really think the closest your theory could get to being true is if it was another mage from inside the White Spire who found Cole and used blood magic to impersonate him. Though it still wouldn't explain why they had his memories in the Fade or why they were so terrified of other people or confused that Rhys could remember him. I think the Cole that exists now is very much supernatural, even if I can't explain what he is completely.ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
Yes, but, Male Wardens do go through the mirror with Morrigan and we have no idea where that my be and for what purpose? Good or ill. With Morrigan and Flemeth anything is possible. Also don't forget what Leliana tells Cassandra at the end of DA2 it's in the Maker's hands. What a play on words. Ha, I guess so if the warden is in a dungeon in Val Royueax (sp).
The Cole at the end of the book with Lambert can't be Cole, scroll back up and see the quote out of the last scenes from the book, that is almost verbertim that another poster posted from the book. The Cole at the end who we think might kill Lambert can't be the real Cole. It's impossible. The person getting ready to kill Lambert saw the real Cole die at the beginning of the story. The Cole running around in the story is an imposter. I don't believe they are a spirit. I do think the same as a poster above it is a rogue warden. A warden with shadow abilities fits, a mage with spells from the arcane or spirit school also fits, and so do spirit, guardian, and Templar wardens. Cole as a warden fits any origin story.
And don't forget David Gaider's hints in that interview on the first page that Cole was actually possessed by a demon!
Still - a very interesting theory!
#58
Posté 18 août 2012 - 06:00
ElvaliaRavenHart
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@ Brushyourteeth, you're still discounting the quote at the end of the book. Cole has to be a demon who possessed Cole when he actually died, or a captured warden or a possessed warden. These are the only three things I've come up with to explain Cole. His story is a riddle especially at the end.
#59
Posté 18 août 2012 - 06:06
ElvaliaRavenHart
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The First Warden might have ordered the Warden Commander to do this...infiltrate the Chantry. Because of the Chantry infiltrating the Wardens at Vigil's Keep. I disagree with you because if you read the Stolen Throne before playing Origins. You never would have suspected Loghain turning his back on Cailan either but he did. So yes, I can see Gaider throwing that monkey wrench in there.
#60
Posté 18 août 2012 - 06:13
brushyourteeth
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Aw, I'm actually the original poster for this thread, so I'm totally not forgetting the quote from the book - I'm just trying to make your theory make sense in my own head. 
It just doesn't make any sense to me why my Warden would run around inside the Spire killing people and being afraid of anybody. Or if she could make herself invisible, why would she choose to look like Cole? And when Lambert used the Litany of Adralla on her, why would she be so shocked and sad to find out that she's been using blood magic? There's also the fact that when Cole wants to leave the tower to follow Rhys, he does it - there's nothing keeping him trapped in there. It even says in Chapter 1 that the bottom of the White Spire leads straight into Val Royeaux's sewers and he wonders if anyone else knows about it.
And like I said, David Gaider just wouldn't *make* the Warden do anything. He knows the fans would be too picky about that. I really think he just wants to show us that there are things about spirits, magic, and the Fade that aren't easy to label or to understand.
But you're welcome to headcannon the Cole/Warden theory if you wish! I totally respect that - it's your Warden after all!
It just doesn't make any sense to me why my Warden would run around inside the Spire killing people and being afraid of anybody. Or if she could make herself invisible, why would she choose to look like Cole? And when Lambert used the Litany of Adralla on her, why would she be so shocked and sad to find out that she's been using blood magic? There's also the fact that when Cole wants to leave the tower to follow Rhys, he does it - there's nothing keeping him trapped in there. It even says in Chapter 1 that the bottom of the White Spire leads straight into Val Royeaux's sewers and he wonders if anyone else knows about it.
And like I said, David Gaider just wouldn't *make* the Warden do anything. He knows the fans would be too picky about that. I really think he just wants to show us that there are things about spirits, magic, and the Fade that aren't easy to label or to understand.
But you're welcome to headcannon the Cole/Warden theory if you wish! I totally respect that - it's your Warden after all!
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 18 août 2012 - 06:14 .
#61
Posté 18 août 2012 - 08:22
ElvaliaRavenHart
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Because like Cole, if the Templars took the Warden into custody over the use of Morrigan's Dark Ritual and you (warden) being alive when you should be dead for killing the Arch Demon, then there is a reason for the person posing as Cole to be a warden and also be in the tower dungeon for those charges, the use of blood magic. For the creation of an old god back into the world. The chantry and circles both seemed to have indepth knowledge of the wardens and their practices even though the Wardens are susposed to be a secret order.
The Chantry has to know about the joining ritual for wardens which is a blood magic ritual. Circle mages prepare the joining for the wardens at Ostagar. Plus the Chantry with it's history and knowledge has to know that a warden was suspose to die when killing the arch demon. None of the other warden who killed the other four Arch Demon's lived to tell the tale.
Wynne also knew it when she gives you a dressing down over your love interest and what will you choose when doing your duty. Save your love or kill the Arch Demon in the right way. Wynne's cold shoulder in Amaranthine gives a clue she doesn't trust you any longer for being alive when she probably knew you should have died to kill the Arch Demon. Wynne is a loyalist to the Chantry in some degrees. Alistair might also turn you in for being alive through a blood magic ritual if you had him do the deed with Morrigan. He might also turn you in to the Chantry even as a male warden who did the deed with Morrigan.
So it's not hard to see how a warden could be imprisoned in a Chantry/Circle dungeon. Also when playing Awakenings the Chantry does try to kill you which I stated before. Was the Chantry going to kill two birds with one stone - get Anders and you for the price of one? Didn't you find it strange, it's the same Templar who comes to Vigil's Keep with Alistair or Anora that tries to kill you. You either allow the female Templar to take Anders or you fight her.
So I don't see how you can't see the possibility of the Chantry taking the warden or a warden into custody. If this is what happened in Asunder, you can beat that the First Warden in the Anderfels will have something to say or do about the Chantry interfering with a Warden's Duty and detaining a Warden. Only The First Warden, or the Warden who Defeated a Blight, or the Divine could stop what happened to someone like Cole or bring to light a Warden dead in a Chantry dungeon and were allowed to starve to death. The First Warden will not allow the Chantry to get away with that I'm afraid. The First Warden won't like the fact that the Chantry tired to the kill the Warden Commander of Ferelden regardless of the reasons. I'd assume the wardens would kill the Warden Commander themselves and not allow the Chantry to question the warden or any warden on their duties.
How do we know that Cole wasn't a warden before being brought to the dungeon? We don't. His memories of his sister's death could have been memories that rushed to the surface of his mind when thinking on his life in his circumstances. We don't know. The fade part of Cole's story in the book might be real or it might not. Just as the warden' and companions where caught in the fade and it seemed real when it wasn't when doing the broken circle quest in the first game. Same thing with the Warden getting stuck in the fade in Awakenings also.
The Chantry has to know about the joining ritual for wardens which is a blood magic ritual. Circle mages prepare the joining for the wardens at Ostagar. Plus the Chantry with it's history and knowledge has to know that a warden was suspose to die when killing the arch demon. None of the other warden who killed the other four Arch Demon's lived to tell the tale.
Wynne also knew it when she gives you a dressing down over your love interest and what will you choose when doing your duty. Save your love or kill the Arch Demon in the right way. Wynne's cold shoulder in Amaranthine gives a clue she doesn't trust you any longer for being alive when she probably knew you should have died to kill the Arch Demon. Wynne is a loyalist to the Chantry in some degrees. Alistair might also turn you in for being alive through a blood magic ritual if you had him do the deed with Morrigan. He might also turn you in to the Chantry even as a male warden who did the deed with Morrigan.
So it's not hard to see how a warden could be imprisoned in a Chantry/Circle dungeon. Also when playing Awakenings the Chantry does try to kill you which I stated before. Was the Chantry going to kill two birds with one stone - get Anders and you for the price of one? Didn't you find it strange, it's the same Templar who comes to Vigil's Keep with Alistair or Anora that tries to kill you. You either allow the female Templar to take Anders or you fight her.
So I don't see how you can't see the possibility of the Chantry taking the warden or a warden into custody. If this is what happened in Asunder, you can beat that the First Warden in the Anderfels will have something to say or do about the Chantry interfering with a Warden's Duty and detaining a Warden. Only The First Warden, or the Warden who Defeated a Blight, or the Divine could stop what happened to someone like Cole or bring to light a Warden dead in a Chantry dungeon and were allowed to starve to death. The First Warden will not allow the Chantry to get away with that I'm afraid. The First Warden won't like the fact that the Chantry tired to the kill the Warden Commander of Ferelden regardless of the reasons. I'd assume the wardens would kill the Warden Commander themselves and not allow the Chantry to question the warden or any warden on their duties.
How do we know that Cole wasn't a warden before being brought to the dungeon? We don't. His memories of his sister's death could have been memories that rushed to the surface of his mind when thinking on his life in his circumstances. We don't know. The fade part of Cole's story in the book might be real or it might not. Just as the warden' and companions where caught in the fade and it seemed real when it wasn't when doing the broken circle quest in the first game. Same thing with the Warden getting stuck in the fade in Awakenings also.
Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 18 août 2012 - 08:34 .
#63
Posté 18 août 2012 - 11:18
Kidd
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It is an interesting thought exercise, but I agree with brushyourteeth - I'm sadly not convinced. You've certainly been thinking about this, however =)
To me, the person referring to themselves as "I" in the quote at the end is simply a spirit or a demon. Whatever this creature from the other side of the Veil is, it connected real strongly to Cole. Strongly enough that it copied his memories, his manners and thoughts - now that's some strong sympathy there. Whether it inhabits Cole's body at all or remains a sole spirit however, I have no clue.
To me, the person referring to themselves as "I" in the quote at the end is simply a spirit or a demon. Whatever this creature from the other side of the Veil is, it connected real strongly to Cole. Strongly enough that it copied his memories, his manners and thoughts - now that's some strong sympathy there. Whether it inhabits Cole's body at all or remains a sole spirit however, I have no clue.
#64
Posté 18 août 2012 - 11:47
brushyourteeth
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OMG - I just realized I'm in your new signature, KDB! Haha - fabulous! 
#65
Posté 18 août 2012 - 12:01
Kidd
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What can I say? The quote is so damn spot on and amusingly put, I couldn't help but adopt it the very moment I read it a few days ago xD
#66
Posté 18 août 2012 - 12:09
R2s Muse
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OMG brush, did u really say that? Hilarious.brushyourteeth wrote...
OMG - I just realized I'm in your new signature, KDB! Haha - fabulous!
Anyhoo, this discussion is really interesting. The thing that has always confused me from the book was the part about whether Rhys was doing the killing. Taking the passages in the book together with DG's interview comment suggesting "someone" was being controlled by a demon, I can only conclude that it must have been true. Alas, it makes me think that it wouldn't have been mentioned in the book if there wasn't some truth to it... and that perhaps the "reveal" merely may not have been as effective as one would have liked. As I was reading my honest initial reaction wasn't so much "ooh, interesting..." as "WTF?" I found it really far fetched that it was Rhys, so it seemed like a big red pointer from the author as opposed to natural, idle speculation from the character.
So I guess I'm just still baffled as to what to think about Rhys's potential "possession" and what that might mean for what Cole really is.
All that said, cole personally gave me the creeps, so I don't think I'd want him as a companion.
#67
Posté 18 août 2012 - 12:56
Rayndorn
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Thanks for writing this - I haven't got round to reading Asunder yet (curse you, A song of fire and Ice! <_<) and found his character from your description pretty intresting. If he is a spirit, however, I can't imagine that he would be a LI.
#68
Posté 18 août 2012 - 07:59
Renmiri1
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That was a very good summary! I read Asunder and you made me understand Cole even more 
I would hate to have Cole as a companion, he is not very useful. Would love to have him as a cameo or a villain / quest where I could find him and send him back to the Fade. He gives me the creeps! Is not his fault and he only kills people who want to die - Seeker excepted - but still. Creepy!
I would hate to have Cole as a companion, he is not very useful. Would love to have him as a cameo or a villain / quest where I could find him and send him back to the Fade. He gives me the creeps! Is not his fault and he only kills people who want to die - Seeker excepted - but still. Creepy!
Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 août 2012 - 08:01 .
#69
Posté 19 août 2012 - 01:56
brushyourteeth
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Thanks guys! I'm honestly really happy that I was able to help.
And R2's Muse, I know what you mean about Rhys and the murders. I never got that from the book much either. It seemed like it was inserted randomly, but then again it may have just gone over my head. Rhys was definitely under the influence of blood magic as far as seeing Cole and trusting him, but he seemed to come out of it mostly unscathed.
And R2's Muse, I know what you mean about Rhys and the murders. I never got that from the book much either. It seemed like it was inserted randomly, but then again it may have just gone over my head. Rhys was definitely under the influence of blood magic as far as seeing Cole and trusting him, but he seemed to come out of it mostly unscathed.
#70
Posté 19 août 2012 - 04:53
Kidd
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Well, blood magic is not inherently evil. I suppose Rhys might've been under something similar to the D&D "Friends" spell which simply makes the caster seem a lot more sincere and trustworthy than they may really be. Such a spell would probably be blood magic in DA, yet it's not really mind domination the way it usually works.
#71
Posté 19 août 2012 - 07:15
brushyourteeth
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Yeah, don't get me wrong - I don't think that Cole meant Rhys any intentional harm. In fact I think it's pretty clear that Cole never intentionally used blood magic for any reason at all - it seemed like it came naturally to him after his stay in the Spire's dungeon. But Rhys (and maybe his friends) were definitely under Cole's influence because the Litany revealed it. And when it did Cole actually cried - he was as shocked as anybody, poor thing.KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Well, blood magic is not inherently evil. I suppose Rhys might've been under something similar to the D&D "Friends" spell which simply makes the caster seem a lot more sincere and trustworthy than they may really be. Such a spell would probably be blood magic in DA, yet it's not really mind domination the way it usually works.
#72
Posté 19 août 2012 - 08:10
Kaosbuddy
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I'm still stuck on Lambert's "you first saw him in the Fade, obviously he's a demon/spirit." line to Evangeline... that'd make sense for non-Mages, except Cole talks to Leliana with nobody else around.
#73
Posté 19 août 2012 - 08:49
R2s Muse
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Ah, good point... Which I think I actually said out loud to Lambert as I was reading the book! LOLKaosbuddy wrote...
I'm still stuck on Lambert's "you first saw him in the Fade, obviously he's a demon/spirit." line to Evangeline... that'd make sense for non-Mages, except Cole talks to Leliana with nobody else around.
#74
Posté 20 août 2012 - 07:28
Kidd
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See? He's the cutest <3 Sooo huggable ^^ Don't get how anyone can be scared of him!brushyourteeth wrote...
Yeah, don't get me wrong - I don't think that Cole meant Rhys any intentional harm. In fact I think it's pretty clear that Cole never intentionally used blood magic for any reason at all - it seemed like it came naturally to him after his stay in the Spire's dungeon. But Rhys (and maybe his friends) were definitely under Cole's influence because the Litany revealed it. And when it did Cole actually cried - he was as shocked as anybody, poor thing.
#75
Posté 20 août 2012 - 09:37
DarthChicken
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It may have something to do with the whole murdering thing.KiddDaBeauty wrote...
See? He's the cutest <3 Sooo huggable ^^ Don't get how anyone can be scared of him!brushyourteeth wrote...
Yeah, don't get me wrong - I don't think that Cole meant Rhys any intentional harm. In fact I think it's pretty clear that Cole never intentionally used blood magic for any reason at all - it seemed like it came naturally to him after his stay in the Spire's dungeon. But Rhys (and maybe his friends) were definitely under Cole's influence because the Litany revealed it. And when it did Cole actually cried - he was as shocked as anybody, poor thing.
