503 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazebook]

Reorte wrote...

maaaze wrote...

It is then not more space magic than other space magic, it is something that was not explained in great detail like the rest of the series.
Because it was the resolution. 
It is just left unexplained.

Yes you and others don´t like it if not everything is fully explained...me and others like to construct our own reasoning, or just don´t care how it is could truly work...because that was never their focus.

So you can accept anything that's thrown at you, no matter how nonsensical and far-fetched it is? It's also incredibly lazy writing to fall into space magic when unnecessary, particularly to resolve major plot points. Star Trek's victory through technobabble is intellectually just as bad although at least it usually fits in with the setting.

Everything does not have to be explained but should at least do a convincing enough job that it is explicable.

I can accept everything as long as the consequences and implications are interessting. The ingame explonation is more than enough for me and is on the same far-fetched level as faster than light travel or biotics.

It is not lazy writing, it is writing that focuses on different things.

[F4H bandicoot]

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
and we also learn that human DNA doesn't combind with all of the other races which is what Synthesis did

Synthesis enhanced organic DNA with synthetic material.  Really not that big of a stretch from Reaper spikes turning corpses into cyborg zombies.

The Dragon's Teeth are explained in game. Synthesis is not, I can explain how people are turned into husks, can you explain how synthesis works??

[knightnblu]

BioWare said that it wouldn't rely on space magic in ME3 and then...Presto! Space magic all over the original ending. Imagine that. Funny how saying one thing and doing another will come back to haunt you isn't it?

[Big I]

To me the most "space magicy" thing about the ME trilogy is that we had to build the Crucible, but still don't know what it does until the Catalyst tells you. This means that all those scientists and engineers working on it CORRECTLY assembled something beyond their comprehension. It's as if people from two hundred years ago got the schematics to build a car, managed to succesfully make the car, but when asked what it does give you a blank stare.


Look, I get that they were trying to draw an analogy between the Manhattan Project and the Crucible, but the people working on the Manhattan Project knew they were making a bomb, if not exactly how that bomb would affect the environment when used. If they'd been like the Crucible makers they apparently wouldn't have even known they were building a bomb.


In other science fiction when a device or technology is used to advance the plot without there being sufficient in-story explanation for how it works that device is usually attributed to a mysterious third party (ancient aliens, evolved aliens, etc). This works better to suspend disbelief because it 's hard to swallow that anyone could make a complex device of any kind without some idea of how it works. If the Crucible's in the story it should have been built by the Protheans.


If I were to buy that the ME humans and aliens could build the Crucible, it'd have to be on the understanding that they have some understanding of how it works. So they know it can be used to shut down Reapers, destroy them, or turn people into cyborgs (lol). If that's the case why not just reverse engineer the destroy function of the device, make weapons based on that and give them to allied ships, and voila! An anti-Reaper weapon that takes out Reapers one at a time.

[Mazebook]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
and we also learn that human DNA doesn't combind with all of the other races which is what Synthesis did

Synthesis enhanced organic DNA with synthetic material.  Really not that big of a stretch from Reaper spikes turning corpses into cyborg zombies.

The Dragon's Teeth are explained in game. Synthesis is not, I can explain how people are turned into husks, can you explain how synthesis works??

If the writers could make "sense" of the dragon´s Teeth they could make "sense" of Synthesis.
The drangon Teeth make only "sense" because of the ingame codex not through the Narrative itself.

There is no Codex for synthesis ´cos the game has no chance to give you a detailed explonation.
It happens right in the end of the game where you can´t pull up the codex.
The EC gave you some grand details...going more indepth would disrupt the pacing and the flow of the emotional context.

[F4H bandicoot]

maaaze wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
and we also learn that human DNA doesn't combind with all of the other races which is what Synthesis did

Synthesis enhanced organic DNA with synthetic material.  Really not that big of a stretch from Reaper spikes turning corpses into cyborg zombies.

The Dragon's Teeth are explained in game. Synthesis is not, I can explain how people are turned into husks, can you explain how synthesis works??

If the writers could make "sense" of the dragon´s Teeth they could make "sense" of Synthesis.
The drangon Teeth make only "sense" because of the ingame codex not through the Narrative itself.

There is no Codex for synthesis ´cos the game has no chance to give you a detailed explonation.
It happens right in the end of the game where you can´t pull up the codex.
The EC gave you some grand details...going more indepth would disrupt the pacing and the flow of the emotional context.

Dragon's teeth are explained in the Horizon mission, in narrative.
Are you saying the Catlyst could not have had a brief explanation of how synthesis works??

[Baa Baa]

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

I don't think you know what Science Fiction is....

[Mazebook]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

maaaze wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
and we also learn that human DNA doesn't combind with all of the other races which is what Synthesis did

Synthesis enhanced organic DNA with synthetic material.  Really not that big of a stretch from Reaper spikes turning corpses into cyborg zombies.

The Dragon's Teeth are explained in game. Synthesis is not, I can explain how people are turned into husks, can you explain how synthesis works??

If the writers could make "sense" of the dragon´s Teeth they could make "sense" of Synthesis.
The drangon Teeth make only "sense" because of the ingame codex not through the Narrative itself.

There is no Codex for synthesis ´cos the game has no chance to give you a detailed explonation.
It happens right in the end of the game where you can´t pull up the codex.
The EC gave you some grand details...going more indepth would disrupt the pacing and the flow of the emotional context.

Dragon's teeth are explained in the Horizon mission, in narrative.
Are you saying the Catlyst could not have had a brief explanation of how synthesis works??

He did. It made as much sense as the explained Horizon mission...to our knowlege both are implausible and impossible.

[F4H bandicoot]

maaaze wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

maaaze wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
and we also learn that human DNA doesn't combind with all of the other races which is what Synthesis did

Synthesis enhanced organic DNA with synthetic material.  Really not that big of a stretch from Reaper spikes turning corpses into cyborg zombies.

The Dragon's Teeth are explained in game. Synthesis is not, I can explain how people are turned into husks, can you explain how synthesis works??

If the writers could make "sense" of the dragon´s Teeth they could make "sense" of Synthesis.
The drangon Teeth make only "sense" because of the ingame codex not through the Narrative itself.

There is no Codex for synthesis ´cos the game has no chance to give you a detailed explonation.
It happens right in the end of the game where you can´t pull up the codex.
The EC gave you some grand details...going more indepth would disrupt the pacing and the flow of the emotional context.

Dragon's teeth are explained in the Horizon mission, in narrative.
Are you saying the Catlyst could not have had a brief explanation of how synthesis works??

He did. It made as much sense as the explained Horizon mission...to our knowlege both are implausible and impossible.

I'm not talking about Horizon in general, just that DT work by inserting nanodes and making the body release andrelin to spread it around. That makes sense.

[Xamufam]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

To me the most "space magicy" thing about the ME trilogy is that we had to build the Crucible, but still don't know what it does until the Catalyst tells you. This means that all those scientists and engineers working on it CORRECTLY assembled something beyond their comprehension. It's as if people from two hundred years ago got the schematics to build a car, managed to succesfully make the car, but when asked what it does give you a blank stare.


Look, I get that they were trying to draw an analogy between the Manhattan Project and the Crucible, but the people working on the Manhattan Project knew they were making a bomb, if not exactly how that bomb would affect the environment when used. If they'd been like the Crucible makers they apparently wouldn't have even known they were building a bomb.


In other science fiction when a device or technology is used to advance the plot without there being sufficient in-story explanation for how it works that device is usually attributed to a mysterious third party (ancient aliens, evolved aliens, etc). This works better to suspend disbelief because it 's hard to swallow that anyone could make a complex device of any kind without some idea of how it works. If the Crucible's in the story it should have been built by the Protheans.


If I were to buy that the ME humans and aliens could build the Crucible, it'd have to be on the understanding that they have some understanding of how it works. So they know it can be used to shut down Reapers, destroy them, or turn people into cyborgs (lol). If that's the case why not just reverse engineer the destroy function of the device, make weapons based on that and give them to allied ships, and voila! An anti-Reaper weapon that takes out Reapers one at a time.

So true, it's not possible to build something without understanding the math & the physics (how to  utilize energy)
behind it.
And what kind a radiation does meld organic dna with raw material(lol)? I can answer that one, a magical handwave.
Everything that is possible in the universe can be explained with math

This is a example of a third party

Modifié par Troxa, 17 août 2012 - 02:33 .

[LittleFranklin]

Are you saying the Catlyst could not have had a brief explanation of how synthesis works??

Is that all you want? I could make up some techno babble and we could pretend he said it if you like.

If I were to buy that the ME humans and aliens could build the Crucible, it'd have to be on the understanding that they have some understanding of how it works. So they know it can be used to shut down Reapers, destroy them, or turn people into cyborgs (lol). If that's the case why not just reverse engineer the destroy function of the device, make weapons based on that and give them to allied ships, and voila! An anti-Reaper weapon that takes out Reapers one at a time.

The Crucible wasn't a weapon, it was just something that made the Catalyst more powerful.

[Memnon]

I can actually accept synthesis at some form - I don't know about the "new DNA" or final stage of evolution claims, but I can accept that at some point there might be organic/synthetic hybrids. What I cannot accept is it's method of delivery. I really don't think anyone has been able to adequately explain why dumping genetic material into a green chamber is the trigger mechanism for a beam that fundamentally alters every single organic and synthetic in the entire galaxy. That makes absolutely zero sense ...

[F4H bandicoot]

LittleFranklin wrote...

Are you saying the Catlyst could not have had a brief explanation of how synthesis works??

Is that all you want? I could make up some techno babble and we could pretend he said it if you like.

No, that's no what I want. He's saying that we cannot explain Synthesis because it cannot be added as an entry in the codex, I was asking him if it was not possible for the kid to explain in brief how it works.

[LittleFranklin]

Troxa wrote...
So true, it's not possible to build something without understanding the math & the physics (how to  utilize energy)
behind it.

Far as I remember they did have ideas how it worked, I seem to remember Mordin speculating about it being basically a simple design that magnified energy or something. But they could never have guessed what it's purpose was because it was designed to work with the Catalyst, who they didn't know about.

Modifié par LittleFranklin, 17 août 2012 - 02:41 .

[LittleFranklin]

Stornskar wrote...
I really don't think anyone has been able to adequately explain why dumping genetic material into a green chamber is the trigger mechanism for a beam that fundamentally alters every single organic and synthetic in the entire galaxy.

Yeah I like the synthesis ending but there's no reason why Shepard is neccessary for it to happen. Pretty sure his DNA wasn't cyborg, he just had a load of implants.

[Jamie9]

Space magic is fine. It's when suspension of disbelief is broken that we have a problem.

[Geneaux486]

F4H bandicoot wrote...
I'm not talking about Horizon in general, just that DT work by inserting nanodes and making the body release andrelin to spread it around. That makes sense.

And the fact that the effect this had on the corpse was that it turned it into a glowing zombie that attacked on command?  As I said, not that big of a stretch from what Synthesis did.

I was asking him if it was not possible for the kid to explain in brief how it works.

Youtube the EC, the Catalyst does give a brief explanation of what synthesis does.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 17 août 2012 - 03:03 .

[Darth Asriel]

OP, you're an idiot. Synthesis is utter garbage. The catalyst claims it will form a new DNA. How? Machines don't have DNA, and if we are all getting a USB port or are now wifi capable, you didn't change our DNA. We would still be human, asari, krogan, etc. They use Shepard's essence. To make it work. What does that even mean. His soul? His DNA? His brain patterns? And we see it made trees partly synthetic. Does that mean they can think? And if so, how much cognitive function did they gain. Did Edi suddenly grow a heart in her robotic chest? Do the Geth now have blood? And if trees are now partly synthetic does that mean that my datapad is now part organic? If so what's the point of that? What was the point of trees being partly synthetic.

This is junk writing. They offer no explanation other than space magic.

[Geneaux486]

Darth Asriel wrote...

OP, you're an idiot. Synthesis is utter garbage. The catalyst claims it will form a new DNA. How? Machines don't have DNA, and if we are all getting a USB port or are now wifi capable, you didn't change our DNA. We would still be human, asari, krogan, etc. They use Shepard's essence. To make it work. What does that even mean. His soul? His DNA? His brain patterns? And we see it made trees partly synthetic. Does that mean they can think? And if so, how much cognitive function did they gain. Did Edi suddenly grow a heart in her robotic chest? Do the Geth now have blood? And if trees are now partly synthetic does that mean that my datapad is now part organic? If so what's the point of that? What was the point of trees being partly synthetic.

This is junk writing. They offer no explanation other than space magic.

Play the EC, it adresses nearly all of these concerns.  Synthetics are explained to simply gain a more organic thought process, not obtain actual DNA.  Human DNA is enhanced via synthetic materials, on a cellular level, so no, we're not getting USB ports or whatever other bullsh*t, the energy from the Crucible simply improves our cells.  Furthermore, organic and synthetic beings gain a deeper understanding of one another, so synthesis also grants a sort of enlightenment.  This is why some may find synthesis to be an adequate solution to the problem of the rift in understanding between synthetics and organics.  How does it work exactly?  Who knows.  How did the Lazarus Project work?  How do the Reapers work?  How are they able to melt people alive and preserve their brains?  Why hold the ending to a higher standard of realism than the rest of the series?  Mass Effect has never explained every single detail of every single thing, there have always been some mysteries.  Doesn't make it space magic.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 17 août 2012 - 04:10 .

[Darth Asriel]

@Geneaux486- There was no problem between organics and synthetics in this cycle. The Geth were isolationist who only fought back when attacked. The heretics did attack at the behest of the Reapers! Edi while wanting to understand humanity did not have a bone to pick. In fact she was interested in trying to play tonsil/gear hockey with Joker BEFORE the magic space beam made her a real girl. So it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Where is this rift that spacebrat keeps citing? In fact I have united all synthetics and space caring organics against the reapers. And you ignored my larger point. How is any of that possible? And how much altering of our DNA did it do? Joker still has brittle bones as evidence by his continued limp. So it didn't cure diseases we can assume. What does it do? And what is Shepard's essence?

Even the EC is just longer poor writing. It didn't offer any tangible explanation.

[Mazebook]

"There was no problem between organics and synthetics in this cycle. The Geth were isolationist who only fought back when attacked. "

i am sorry...but this made me laugh hard.

"No, I have a normal relationship with food...i just eat way to much"

Modifié par maaaze, 17 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[Mazebook]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

maaaze wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

maaaze wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
and we also learn that human DNA doesn't combind with all of the other races which is what Synthesis did

Synthesis enhanced organic DNA with synthetic material.  Really not that big of a stretch from Reaper spikes turning corpses into cyborg zombies.

The Dragon's Teeth are explained in game. Synthesis is not, I can explain how people are turned into husks, can you explain how synthesis works??

If the writers could make "sense" of the dragon´s Teeth they could make "sense" of Synthesis.
The drangon Teeth make only "sense" because of the ingame codex not through the Narrative itself.

There is no Codex for synthesis ´cos the game has no chance to give you a detailed explonation.
It happens right in the end of the game where you can´t pull up the codex.
The EC gave you some grand details...going more indepth would disrupt the pacing and the flow of the emotional context.

Dragon's teeth are explained in the Horizon mission, in narrative.
Are you saying the Catlyst could not have had a brief explanation of how synthesis works??

He did. It made as much sense as the explained Horizon mission...to our knowlege both are implausible and impossible.

I'm not talking about Horizon in general, just that DT work by inserting nanodes and making the body release andrelin to spread it around. That makes sense.

makes total sense...we do that everyday here in my backjard.

It is BS. nothing of this stuff is possible to our knowlege. but fine...if you think that is more plausible than other stuff...good...we just don´t see eye to eye on what is plausible and what not...
and i am getting tired arguing about this point.

[Geneaux486]

So it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

It took every ounce of Shepard's paragon/renegade points to end the Rannoch war without one side killing the other. A conflict that stemmed from a lack of understanding. And the Geth are anomalous anyway, in previous cycles, such as that of the Protheans, synthetic life forms did try to wipe out organics.

How is any of that possible? And how much altering of our DNA did it do? Joker still has brittle bones as evidence by his continued limp. So it didn't cure diseases we can assume. What does it do? And what is Shepard's essence?

Those are unanswered questions. Where you and I disagree is at whether or not they need to be answered, whether or not leaving them as mysteries somehow makes the ending less realistic than the rest of the series up to that point. I argue that it doesn't, mostly because it doesn't. Like I said, we're never told how the Reapers work, how their reproduction method works, or how the Lazarus Project worked. For some people that hinders their ability to enjoy the story, for others it doesn't. That doesn't make it bad writing.  Mass Effect has always been a mixture of science fiction and science fantasy.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 17 août 2012 - 04:46 .