503 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

Because they never noticed biotics and other things using Element Zero before the Crucible in ME3.

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because Mass Effect is Science Fiction, not Future Fantasy.

John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 17 août 2012 - 04:56 .

[Geneaux486]

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

[Blueprotoss]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

This is very true and I see nothing wrong with this. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 17 août 2012 - 04:55 .

[Blueprotoss]

sorry double post

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 17 août 2012 - 04:55 .

[Memnon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because Mass Effect is Science Fiction, not Future Fantasy.

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Everything you quoted has established its own setting, rules, and framework - now of those that you mentioned, point out something that is analogous to going from an established framework, such as Eezo, to something of the magnitude of a green beam changing the DNA of every organic and synthetic in the galaxy ...

[CronoDragoon]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

If it has elements of both, then it's science fantasy, regardless of its hard science fiction elements.

[Meltemph]

How does it work exactly? Who knows. How did the Lazarus Project work? How do the Reapers work? How are they able to melt people alive and preserve their brains? Why hold the ending to a higher standard of realism than the rest of the series? Mass Effect has never explained every single detail of every single thing, there have always been some mysteries. Doesn't make it space magic.

I'm pretty sure most people complaining about the ending(mroe specifically synthesis) were also the ones that didnt like the majority of that stuff. My biggest problem with synthesis is, though, that it doesnt feel liek a natural part of the story, at all. Transhumansim was never touched upon in any coherent way, to where a ending that is really what it is, is justified.

It took every ounce of Shepard's paragon/renegade points to end the Rannoch war without one side killing the other. A conflict that stemmed from a lack of understanding. And the Geth are anomalous anyway, in previous cycles, such as that of the Protheans, synthetic life forms did try to wipe out organics

Also, this is also part of the game people didnt like, the part where they forced us to accept that there has always been a cycle of the created vs the creator.  I'm sure there are a lot of scifi fans sick of seeign this shtick.

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[Blueprotoss]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because Mass Effect is Science Fiction, not Future Fantasy.

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Everything you quoted has established its own setting, rules, and framework - now of those that you mentioned, point out something that is analogous to going from an established framework, such as Eezo, to something of the magnitude of a green beam changing the DNA of every organic and synthetic in the galaxy ...

It doesn't matter if Q, the Force, normal magic, rampent robotic technolgy, more normal magic, more rampent robotic technolgy, and even more normal magic is involved.  Btw if you're talking about the magnitude of Synthes is then you also need to talk about Destroy and Control as well.

[Memnon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because Mass Effect is Science Fiction, not Future Fantasy.

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Everything you quoted has established its own setting, rules, and framework - now of those that you mentioned, point out something that is analogous to going from an established framework, such as Eezo, to something of the magnitude of a green beam changing the DNA of every organic and synthetic in the galaxy ...

It doesn't matter if Q, the Force, normal magic, rampent robotic technolgy, more normal magic, more rampent robotic technolgy, and even more normal magic is involved.  Btw if you're talking about the magnitude of Synthes is then you also need to talk about Destroy and Control as well.

It DOES matter - and you're changing the argument, but yes I have a similar issue with Destroy and Control as well. 

[Blueprotoss]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

If it has elements of both, then it's science fantasy, regardless of its hard science fiction elements.

Then would you tell us the same story with John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you. 

[CronoDragoon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

If it has elements of both, then it's science fantasy, regardless of its hard science fiction elements.

Then would you tell us the same story with John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you. 

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

[Blueprotoss]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because Mass Effect is Science Fiction, not Future Fantasy.

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Everything you quoted has established its own setting, rules, and framework - now of those that you mentioned, point out something that is analogous to going from an established framework, such as Eezo, to something of the magnitude of a green beam changing the DNA of every organic and synthetic in the galaxy ...

It doesn't matter if Q, the Force, normal magic, rampent robotic technolgy, more normal magic, more rampent robotic technolgy, and even more normal magic is involved.  Btw if you're talking about the magnitude of Synthes is then you also need to talk about Destroy and Control as well.

It DOES matter - and you're changing the argument, but yes I have a similar issue with Destroy and Control as well. 

Just like in ME while I'm surrised you haven't noticed with all that Element Zero going around.  All I see are contradictions and a soon to be pardox coming from you.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 17 août 2012 - 05:04 .

[robertthebard]

Darth Asriel wrote...

@Geneaux486- There was no problem between organics and synthetics in this cycle. The Geth were isolationist who only fought back when attacked. The heretics did attack at the behest of the Reapers! Edi while wanting to understand humanity did not have a bone to pick. In fact she was interested in trying to play tonsil/gear hockey with Joker BEFORE the magic space beam made her a real girl. So it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Where is this rift that spacebrat keeps citing? In fact I have united all synthetics and space caring organics against the reapers. And you ignored my larger point. How is any of that possible? And how much altering of our DNA did it do? Joker still has brittle bones as evidence by his continued limp. So it didn't cure diseases we can assume. What does it do? And what is Shepard's essence?

Even the EC is just longer poor writing. It didn't offer any tangible explanation.

The answer given in this thread to the Lazarus Project was tons of money, and cybernetics.  But, if this unit truly has a soul, how did they get that back?  This ties directly into what is Shepard's essence, that Cerberus was able to restore with just a handwave.  Lots of credits and cybernetics can really restore a being's soul?

This point is, of course, accepted because without acceptance, there is no ME 2, and by extension no ME 3, at least not with Shepard.  Plus, w/out this Space Magic DeM, there's no way to positvely get Shepard to work with, or for, Cerberus.  So, in order to carry out the story as desired, *POOF* Space Magic.  I'm sure my suspension of disbelief could have gone on longer w/out that.

[Blueprotoss]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

If it has elements of both, then it's science fantasy, regardless of its hard science fiction elements.

Then would you tell us the same story with John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you. 

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

They also use magic in a sci-fi setting, which the ones in bold are famous for.

[Fiery Phoenix]

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

I'm afraid your definition of science fiction is severely flawed.

Science fiction is not about slapping fancy concepts on a paper and calling it a story. The word 'science' comes before the word 'fiction' for a reason; any concepts you employ need to be at least partially based on current scientific theory. And then, you need to include it in a way such that it is seamless with the core theme of your story, so as to not deviate from what you are trying to tell the reader in the story.

Wikipedia's definition sums it up quite nicely:

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with imaginary but more or less plausible (or at least non-supernatural) content such as future settings, futuristic science and technology, space travel, parallel universes, aliens, and paranormal abilities

Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possible worlds or futures. It is similar to, but differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature

It's called space magic because it's the exact opposite of the above. There's only so much suspension of disbelief you can have.

Also, you might want to take a look at hard sci-fi.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 17 août 2012 - 05:10 .

[CronoDragoon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Also the science fiction genre isn't space magic, that is the science *fantasy* genre. Mass Effect has elements of both.

If it has elements of both, then it's science fantasy, regardless of its hard science fiction elements.

Then would you tell us the same story with John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you. 

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

They also use magic in a sci-fi setting, which the ones in bold are famous for.

Science fiction is defined by the extrapolation of current science to present future plausible scenarios. Once something breaks that and relies on magic instead, you can't really call it a science fiction story anymore, even though it has elements of a science fiction setting.

I've never heard anyone call Final Fantasy a science fiction series. It's fantasy.

[Memnon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Again - give an example from those universes that is on the level of the green beam altering DNA in the galaxy ... 

[Meltemph]

I would advise not arguing with Blueprotoss... Most of what he says is incredibly confusing and near impossible to follow, with where he is goign with the conversation, and normally degrades the conversation. Just stick with arguing with Geneaux486, he normally has a pretty intelligent view point of the opposite opinion.

[Reorte]

Blueprotoss wrote...
It doesn't matter if Q, the Force, normal magic, rampent robotic technolgy, more normal magic, more rampent robotic technolgy, and even more normal magic is involved.  Btw if you're talking about the magnitude of Synthes is then you also need to talk about Destroy and Control as well.

Of course - plenty of people thing the whole lot is a load of nonsense, it's just that Synthesis is orders of magnitude above the others even though any magic win button was going to result in a facepalm at best (I suppose Destroy could trigger some self -destruct mechanism, it's the way it takes out things other than the Reapers that make it a bigger common sense failure than it could be).

[Blueprotoss]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Science fiction is defined by the extrapolation of current science to present future plausible scenarios. Once something breaks that and relies on magic instead, you can't really call it a science fiction story anymore, even though it has elements of a science fiction setting.

Still you forget that ME tells us the same story with John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy.  We could also throw in Halo and Assassin's Creed.

CronoDragoon wrote...

I've never heard anyone call Final Fantasy a science fiction series. It's fantasy.

If thats the case then why do most of the Final Fanatsies involve advanced technology like the Soldier program in FFVII, the Al Bhed in FFX, and the fal'Cie in FFXIII.  If FF thats only fantasy then that would contradict Zelda and Darksiders.

[Reorte]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Again - give an example from those universes that is on the level of the green beam altering DNA in the galaxy ... 

Q's powers in Trek pretty much are. I'm not quite sure how Trek managed to get away with it to be honest, other than it not being a key universe-shaking plot point.

[JBPBRC]

Meltemph wrote...

How does it work exactly? Who knows. How did the Lazarus Project work? How do the Reapers work? How are they able to melt people alive and preserve their brains? Why hold the ending to a higher standard of realism than the rest of the series? Mass Effect has never explained every single detail of every single thing, there have always been some mysteries. Doesn't make it space magic.

I'm pretty sure most people complaining about the ending(mroe specifically synthesis) were also the ones that didnt like the majority of that stuff. My biggest problem with synthesis is, though, that it doesnt feel liek a natural part of the story, at all. Transhumansim was never touched upon in any coherent way, to where a ending that is really what it is, is justified.

That's because the endings were lifted out of Deus Ex, where they talk about transhumanism a great deal, it makes sense in the proper context.

Also, this is also part of the game people didnt like, the part where they forced us to accept that there has always been a cycle of the created vs the creator.  I'm sure there are a lot of scifi fans sick of seeign this shtick.

Yeah its getting a bit old. Especially after watching the drivel that was the new BSG series. Yeah I said it! Drivel!

[Blueprotoss]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Again - give an example from those universes that is on the level of the green beam altering DNA in the galaxy ... 

Element Zero giving all Asari magic powers.  Another example are the Control and Destroy options.

[JBPBRC]

Reorte wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer: 40K, Too Human, Shadowrun, Deus Ex, and Final Fantasy would like to talk to you.

Again - give an example from those universes that is on the level of the green beam altering DNA in the galaxy ... 

Q's powers in Trek pretty much are. I'm not quite sure how Trek managed to get away with it to be honest, other than it not being a key universe-shaking plot point.

That is exactly why. Typically Q was used to deliver some kind of big point on human nature and that despite how far humans have come, they're still in the little leagues. Trek never used Q to magically stop the Borg from invading the Federation, for instance.

[Darth Asriel]

The Lazarus Project was horrid. I hated it then. Killing Shepard was a stupid and cheap plot device to get us with Cerberus. It really served no gameplay function other than depowering Shepard.

As to the other endings, they are all functionally stupid. How does shooting a red tube kill all synthetics? And I never considered Shepard synthetic he had implants and other things. And if it kills Shepard with synthetic parts does it kill other people with synthetic parts? Why does Shepard walk toward the explosion? Why does Shepard have to become the catalyst in order for the Reapers to leave? Why can't the catalyst do that? I mean he already says his solution won't work. He's an AI capable of independent thought. He has new information use it. Unless he's not an AI and is just a program. In which case where is his hard drive? Or better yet since he controls the Reapers, Shepard should order all available ships to destroy the citadel and crucible. Destroy glowboy. Now no one is controlling the reapers. They may shut down. Or they may realize the abominations they have become and destroy themselves. Worse case you cause temporary confusion and blasts few to hell.