503 réponses à ce sujet

[Fnork]

I can only speak for myself but for me the catalyst is a good example of space magic. Why ? Because it and it's bullplop comes completely out of left field. Controlling the reapers ? New DNA ? Merging synthetic and organic life ? Destroying the reapers outright ? The whole game has you fighting believing all those are either impossible or the delusions of some indoctrinated dbag that you need to wipe out.

I don't really care about element zero reducing mass and whatnot. Why ? It's sort of explained throughout the series and it's stuck to. The catalyst isn't. You know you need it to power the crucible. But the whole game is more about how you need the crucible and war assets and about how you can't win conventionally as opposed to finding the catalyst. In the last 5 minutes you find out the catalyst is actually the reaper overlord that controls the reapers for his demented reasons which just so happen to nullify most of ME1 and 2. After that episode space magic for me just becomes a running gag for anything that I can't explain within the ME world.

[Ticonderoga117]

Blueprotoss wrote...
If thats the case then the Crucible wouldn't be needed to defeat the Reapers if we knew more about them then the Crucible.

Well duh, but nope, stupid plot device ho!

Yet they're still based around Mass Effect drives, which happen to have Element Zero in them.

That's how the ship moves around, not how those weapons work. Try again.

Yet you only point out Synthesis.

Because like I said, it's the most idiotic.

Miranda is a female clone of her father not a robot.

And niether are the human form cyclons.

The closest thing to the origin story is in Star Trek: Enterprise, which isn't what you're talking about.

From TNG, they are cyborgs.

gain ascension is still an organic belief and practice.

That they also believe in, thus not just an organic one.

There doesn't need to be an explaination for something to be labeled magic or not just like biotics in ME, pregnant robots in Battlestar Galactica, Q in Star Trek most of the beings in Stargate, or the Force in Star Wars.  The irony here is you're the one resorting to bull instead of logic.

Yes there does need to be an explanation to avoid being "space magic".
Human-cylons and pretty much human and have all the features and functions.
The Q are a race of aliens that are powerful.
Stargate follow the Q with the ascension bit, and have tech explanations for eveything else.
The Force was always "space magic" because that's pretty much what it was.

[Blueprotoss]

Sion1138 wrote...

No. Biotics are not the problem, nor are they the topic of our discussion. It's the Catalyst/Crucible that is under the loop and by extension and especially, the "Synthesis" beam, "New DNA framework" stuff.

Yet space magic is space magic because of Element Zero.

Sion1138 wrote... 

(Also, and perhaps the most prominent problem, though not exactly having to do with space-magic. The inevitability of conflict between "organics" and synthetics. The purpose of the Reaper cycle.)  

It was all introduced at the very last, with the exception of the Crucible, but it's still a problem because it's function wasn't known until the end.

How is that last minute when ME has always been about the Created vs the Creator whether its Geth vs Quarian or Salarian vs Krogan.

 

Sion1138 wrote... 

You repeatedly mention the Q. As I said before, the Q were introduced in the FIRST episode of TNG. It started and ended with Q and there was a lot of Q in between. All of the things you mention were explored in the their respective lore.

Yet the magic was explained with its title of Mass Effect based on Mass Effect drives and Mass Relays, which use Element Zero.

Sion1138 wrote... 

You are being stubborn.

Yet I'm not ignoring the lore or facts.

[Blueprotoss]

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well duh, but nope, stupid plot device ho![/quote]You could say that about the Pothean beacon in ME1 and the Suicide Mission in ME2 while thats not really the case based on how its all opinion.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 


That's how the ship moves around, not how those weapons work. Try again.[/quote]Element Zero is still in both.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

Because like I said, it's the most idiotic.[/quote]I'm surprised based on how Control is more far-fetched then Synthesis.  All should be treated equally based on how all 3 do a goo amount of reaching.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

And niether are the human form cyclons.[/quote]Then they wouldn't have human DNA and could become pregnant.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

From TNG, they are cyborgs.[/quote]The nano-machine is the robot, which it becomes the parasite and the Borg becomes a cyborg host.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

That they also believe in, thus not just an organic one.[/quote]Either way you're admitting that they want to be organic.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

Yes there does need to be an explanation to avoid being "space magic".[/quote]Sci-fi goes hand to hand with magic just like Fantasy does while both Sci-fi and Fanatsy can be intertwined.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

Human-cylons and pretty much human and have all the features and functions.[/quote]Which can be labeled as magic.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

The Q are a race of aliens that are powerful.[/quote]Like how the Asgardians in Thor or the Gaurdians in Green Lantern are treated as so.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

Stargate follow the Q with the ascension bit, and have tech explanations for eveything else.
[/quote]Yet you could say this with most of the advanced races in sci-fi like John Charter and Flash Gordon.

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

The Force was always "space magic" because that's pretty much what it was.
[/quote]Just like biotics in ME.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 18 août 2012 - 01:24 .

[Ticonderoga117]

[quote]Blueprotoss wrote...
You could say that about the Pothean beacon in ME1 and the Suicide Mission in ME2 while thats not really the case based on how its all opinion.
[/quote]

Not really.

[quote]Element Zero is still in both.[/quote]

Nope.

[quote]I'm surprised based on how Control is more far-fetched then Synthesis.  All should be treated equally based on how all 3 do a goo amount of reaching.[/quote]

True, they all do some reaching. Synthesis goes arms, hands, and legs beyond though.

[quote]Then they wouldn't have human DNA and could become pregnant.[/quote]
According to the show they had TONS of problems with that actually. I don't follow the show wnough to tell you how that all worked out, so meh.

[quote]The nano-machine is the robot, which it becomes the parasite and the Borg becomes a cyborg host.[/quote]



[quote]Either way you're admitting that they want to be organic.[/quote]
No. They don't want to be human. They want to ascend. Two distinct and seperate goals.

[quote]Sci-fi goes hand to hand with magic just like Fantasy does while both Sci-fi and Fanatsy can be intertwined.[/quote]
Depends on how hard the SciFi is. Look it up.

[quote]Which can be labeled as magic.[/quote] So cloning is magic? Oh, ok.

[quote]Like how the Asgardians in Thor or the Gaurdians in Green Lantern are treated as so.[/quote]

Pretty much. That's the explanation. We are given "Hey, these guys are REALLY advanced. However, since that would make the show boring, these guys aren't around all that much."

[quote]Yet you could say this with most of the advanced races in sci-fi like John Charter and Flash Gordon.[/quote]
Yeah, and?

[quote]Just like biotics in ME.
[/quote]

Except biotics from the get go are given "This is how this (inuniverse) scientifically works."
The Force "Hey, it's there. Roll with it". And then they tried explaining it and it makes even less sense than biotics.

[Blueprotoss]

Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

Not really.

Its all opinion.

Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

Nope.

To say thats Element Zerio aren't in ships or weapons is like saying that plasma aren't in lightsabers or the blasters for Star Wars

Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

True, they all do some reaching. Synthesis goes arms, hands, and legs beyond though.

A master AI is worse then everyone being a Cyborg.

Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

According to the show they had TONS of problems with that actually. I don't follow the show wnough to tell you how that all worked out, so meh.

Now you see the trouble with that and cutting episodes didn't help either.

Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

If that doesn't change your view then oh well.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

No. They don't want to be human. They want to ascend. Two distinct and seperate goals.

Either way those are organic even the Geth wanted some of that.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

Depends on how hard the SciFi is. Look it up.

That is true while ME tends to go with the Star Wars or Star Trek veins

Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

So cloning is magic? Oh, ok.

So far human cloning is and we still know very little about it in general from all of those sanctions.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

Pretty much. That's the explanation. We are given "Hey, these guys are REALLY advanced. However, since that would make the show boring, these guys aren't around all that much."

Thats why magic and technology can be intertwinned.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...  

Except biotics from the get go are given "This is how this (inuniverse) scientifically works."
The Force "Hey, it's there. Roll with it". And then they tried explaining it and it makes even less sense than biotics.

I would rather have magical bacteria over a magical mineral.

[m2iCodeJockey]

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

It started as science fiction. Science Fiction is different from SciFi-fantasy.
The theory behind ST warp engines really existed = SciFi
SW's "The Force" = fantasy, SW is actually a story for children

ME was a MA-17 game. SciFi with fantasy elements (biotics)
Synthesis does not fit that audience.
Nor does surviving a planetfall without disintegrating or liquefied on impact in ME2.
Nor does a relay surviving a super nova in ME1 but another being destroyed by a slow moving asteroid in ME2.
Nor does having the Normandy fly in faster than the speed of sound for a pickup of two people in a field of dying people without being shot at.
Nor does blowing and repairing the relays after saying they were made of "an unknown material."

Some things we can let slip for the sake of narrative progress (the time it takes to get from Charon to Earth without FTL) other things stand out because they're in the middle of the scene (trusting a strange entity that tells us to perform 1 of 3 destructive actions to "activate" a machine.)

Logistics matter in a story made for adults.

[Blueprotoss]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

It started as science fiction. Science Fiction is different from SciFi-fantasy.
The theory behind ST warp engines really existed = SciFi
SW's "The Force" = fantasy, SW is actually a story for children

ME was a MA-17 game. SciFi with fantasy elements (biotics)
Synthesis does not fit that audience.
Nor does surviving a planetfall without disintegrating or liquefied on impact in ME2.
Nor does a relay surviving a super nova in ME1 but another being destroyed by a slow moving asteroid in ME2.
Nor does having the Normandy fly in faster than the speed of sound for a pickup of two people in a field of dying people without being shot at.
Nor does blowing and repairing the relays after saying they were made of "an unknown material."

Some things we can let slip for the sake of narrative progress (the time it takes to get from Charon to Earth without FTL) other things stand out because they're in the middle of the scene (trusting a strange entity that tells us to perform 1 of 3 destructive actions to "activate" a machine.)

Logistics matter in a story made for adults.

Really if logistics mattered as much then ME would be hardcore sci-fi like John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galatica, Babylon 5, Stargate, and Farscape while they still have their flaws of magic, not explaining enough, and other problems.  ME is the closest console game to be a hardcore sci-fi.  I don't know if this is coming from the sci-fi fan in me while I most of what I see here is opinion.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 18 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[JBPBRC]

Blueprotoss wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

It started as science fiction. Science Fiction is different from SciFi-fantasy.
The theory behind ST warp engines really existed = SciFi
SW's "The Force" = fantasy, SW is actually a story for children

ME was a MA-17 game. SciFi with fantasy elements (biotics)
Synthesis does not fit that audience.
Nor does surviving a planetfall without disintegrating or liquefied on impact in ME2.
Nor does a relay surviving a super nova in ME1 but another being destroyed by a slow moving asteroid in ME2.
Nor does having the Normandy fly in faster than the speed of sound for a pickup of two people in a field of dying people without being shot at.
Nor does blowing and repairing the relays after saying they were made of "an unknown material."

Some things we can let slip for the sake of narrative progress (the time it takes to get from Charon to Earth without FTL) other things stand out because they're in the middle of the scene (trusting a strange entity that tells us to perform 1 of 3 destructive actions to "activate" a machine.)

Logistics matter in a story made for adults.

Really if logistics mattered as much then ME would be hardcore sci-fi like John Charter, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galatica, Babylon 5, Stargate, and Farscape while they still have their flaws of magic, not explaining enough, and other problems.  ME is the closest console game to be a hardcore sci-fi. 

Maybe with just ME1, yeah. But with ME2 and the Lazarus Project and ME3 with Synthesis even Halo is closer to hard sci-fi than Mass Effect.

[Blueprotoss]

JBPBRC wrote...

Maybe with just ME1, yeah. But with ME2 and the Lazarus Project and ME3 with Synthesis even Halo is closer to hard sci-fi than Mass Effect.

If its in ME1 then its also in ME2 and ME3.  Sci-fi has always had some degree of magic while we can easily compare ME to Star Wars.  If Halo was a pure copy of Ringworld then you might have a case while Halo itself can't stand on its own two feet with all of those lore problems.

[JBPBRC]

Blueprotoss wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Maybe with just ME1, yeah. But with ME2 and the Lazarus Project and ME3 with Synthesis even Halo is closer to hard sci-fi than Mass Effect.

If its in ME1 then its also in ME2 and ME3.

Please show me where green beams capable of altering organics to become half-synthetic or whatever Synthesis does is physically demonstrated in ME1. Don't give me Saren either, his deal was a process of heavy surgery and indoctrination while proposing a concept that resembles Synthesis.

[ElementL09]

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

Do you even know what science fiction is?

[BeastSaver]

Geneaux486 wrote...

People tend to complain about "space magic" because they hold the endings to a higher standard of realism than the rest of the series.  The endings are no less magical than the idea of "cutting edge" tech bringing Shepard back from the dead, people being processed into gray genetic goop but having their minds left in tact, or pretty much anything at all about the Reapers. Mass Effect has always had some science fantasy elements to it, ME3 didn't change that formula. 

Not to forget the "space magic" of changing Krogan genetics with sparkly bits being eminated from the Shroud...

I don't like Synthesis myself, but one is no more implausible than the other in the ME universe.

[Blueprotoss]

JBPBRC wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Maybe with just ME1, yeah. But with ME2 and the Lazarus Project and ME3 with Synthesis even Halo is closer to hard sci-fi than Mass Effect.

If its in ME1 then its also in ME2 and ME3.

Please show me where green beams capable of altering organics to become half-synthetic or whatever Synthesis does is physically demonstrated in ME1. Don't give me Saren either, his deal was a process of heavy surgery and indoctrination while proposing a concept that resembles Synthesis.

Never said green beams were involved in ME1 and Saren is the perfect example of Synthesis other then the Reapers.  Its getting ridiculous on the "space magic" nippicking especially when Element Zero produces magic while if you have a beef with Synthesis then you have to go after Control and Destroy as well.

[Blueprotoss]

Sion1138 wrote...

God damn it... I'll try again. We are not, I repeat, we are NOT talking about biotics here. They were introduced in the beginning of the trilogy as a RULE of the universe we entered. They permeated the entire story.

Yet the prodction of magic in ME comes from Element Zero, which is a mineral that gives ot magical powers.

Sion1138 wrote... 

Element zero is mentioned for the first time before you even begin playing, before you hear the first word spoken in the game. You hear about it many times, there is a codex entry about it, you mine it from planets. It is well explored.

It doesn't matter if its in the codex with oor without a detailed explaination especially when Element Zero isn't real.

Sion1138 wrote... 

The problem, again, are the plot devices and concepts introduced at the very end, which turned out to represent the crux of the story but were not previously foreshadowed or explored in any appreciable detail whatsoever. The minor mention here and there is not nearly enough to qualify.

How is that when the Crucible was at the beginning of ME3 while Synthesis, Control, and Destroy are themes shown throughout the ME series.  There was always foreshadowing that told us the Reaper couldn't be conventionally defeated just like Sovreign because of Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.

Sion1138 wrote... 

The Salarians did not create the Krogan... The Krogan are not the "created"...

Never said that but the Salarians did create the Genophage.

Sion1138 wrote... 

As far as the organic/synthetic conflict goes, there is nothing, and I will repeat nothing to indicate that this is indeed the main focus of the story. Why do I say this?

So no organics were fighting robots like the Geth or their own AIs.

Sion1138 wrote... 

First example - LUNA VI - It did indeed rebel, but as we now know, it evolved into E.D.I who had no problem coexisting with a whole shipful of organic crewmates and indeed strived to protect them.

The original version of EDI did become so what self aware and some deaths did occur.

Sion1138 wrote... 

Second example - GETH - In ME1, they were controlled by Sovereign and as it turned out, these hostile geth were only a fraction of their entirety. The "True Geth" were not hostile and acted against the Quarians only in self-defence. A bit later you even manage to forge an alliance between the geth and Quarians. They make peace, the Quarians return to their planet. No freaking problem, it's been handled.

So the Geth never killed organics like the Quarians before ME1 during and after the Morning War?

Sion1138 wrote... 

How does that tell you that conflict and destruction is inevitable?

Nature itself has cycles.

Sion1138 wrote... 

You are indeed ignoring the story and lore. Completely. And you're making up your own.

If I was ignoring the story and lore then I would be you.

[Blueprotoss]

BeastSaver wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

People tend to complain about "space magic" because they hold the endings to a higher standard of realism than the rest of the series.  The endings are no less magical than the idea of "cutting edge" tech bringing Shepard back from the dead, people being processed into gray genetic goop but having their minds left in tact, or pretty much anything at all about the Reapers. Mass Effect has always had some science fantasy elements to it, ME3 didn't change that formula. 

Not to forget the "space magic" of changing Krogan genetics with sparkly bits being eminated from the Shroud...

I don't like Synthesis myself, but one is no more implausible than the other in the ME universe.

This is very true.

[Blueprotoss]

ElementL09 wrote...

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

Do you even know what science fiction is?

Magic is a stable in sci-fi whether its magical powers like the Force in Star Wars,  extremely advanced technology like time travel in Terminator, or a mixture of both in Marvel comics.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Blueprotoss wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.

Do you even know what science fiction is?

Magic is a stable in sci-fi whether its magical powers like the Force in Star Wars, extremely advanced technology like time travel in Terminator, or a mixture of both in Marvel comics.

Magic is fantasy
Using a system of explainable mechanisms, however phlebotnumous = scifi
SW=fatasy
Terminator=scifi

ME had a freakin' CODEX of technology and culture. People were counting on every eventuality working within the rules in that codex.
After ME1, it drifted continually away from the original rules starting with weapons needing reloads.

The last sequence in the last act is a weird place to introduce new rules AND a new culture AND a new main villain.
Makes (made) the audience feel cheated.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 18 août 2012 - 07:42 .

[Blueprotoss]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Magic is fantasy
Using a system of explainable mechanisms, however phlebotnumous = scifi
SW=fatasy
Terminator=scifi

I see that you're not that much of a sci-fi fan then becase two of the famous examples of sci-fi have a lot of magic, which they happen to be John Charter and Flash Gordon.  You can't have sci-fi without some magic or fantasy without some extremely advanced technology.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

ME had a freakin' CODEX of technology and culture. People were counting on every eventuality working within the rules in that codex.

If thats the case then nothing in ME can be contradicted based on how everything is magical because of the properties of Element Zero.

m2iCodeJockey wrote...  

After ME1, it drifted continually away from the original rules starting with weapons needing reloads.

Yet ME didn't drift away from ME1 while you forget the weapon changes were done to better conflict the Geth, which this is said multiple times in ME2 and ME3.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

The last sequence in the last act is a weird place to introduce new rules AND a new culture AND a new main villain.

There were no new rules, culture, or villian based on how there was always a leader for the Reapers and the Reapers have been around since ME1.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

Makes (made) the audience feel cheated.

Yet you an only speak for yourself based of th audience is made out of millions of people.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 18 août 2012 - 09:06 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

Blueprotoss wrote...
I see that you're not that much of a sci-fi fan then becase two of the famous examples of sci-fi have a lot of magic, which they happen to be John Charter and Flash Gordon. You can't have sci-fi without some magic or fantasy without some extremely advanced technology.

No. I understand what you are describing. I'm well aware that in the mostly scifi universe of say, Star Trek, the Q are virtually magical and transporters are more than iffy with their "Heisenberg Compensators."
I'm trying to get you to refine your description.

There are things that are mostly scifi (Star Trek,)
there are works that are fantasy (Never Ending Story)then,
there is a mix called "scifi-fantasy." SW is definitely this with its "guy levitates fruit during dinner"

How does the Crucible-Catalyst energy target only Reapers?
Why is the "Control" MMI a pair of plasma arcs?
How does a copy of Shepard's intelligence make it into... Where the f*** is that even supposed to be? "The Reaper Realm?"


It's no secret that people mixed scifi and fantasy all the time. It's that THIS ENVIRONMENT DID NOT. It was WEIRD!!!
In every other place, there was definable mechanism at work.
The narrative changed personality. It did so jarringly.
And I'm definitely not alone in saying so.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 19 août 2012 - 02:58 .

[Blueprotoss]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

No. I understand what you are describing. I'm well aware that in the mostly scifi universe of say, Star Trek, the Q are virtually magical and transporters are more than iffy with their "Heisenberg Compensators."
I'm trying to get you to refine your description.

There are things that are mostly scifi, Star Trek
there are works that are fantasy then, Never Ending Story
there is a mix called "scifi-fantasy." SW is definitely this with its "guy levitates fruit during dinner"

Star Wars is just as much sci-fi as Star Trek just like John Charter.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

How does the Crucible-Catalyst energy target only Reapers?
Why is the "Control" MMI a pair of plasma arcs?
How does a copy of Shepard's intelligence make it into... Where the f*** is that even supposed to be? "The Reaper Realm?"

Yet those are red herrings because they're questioned that won't be answered anytime soon.

m2iCodeJockey wrote...  

It's no secret that people mixed scifi and fantasy all the time. It's that THIS ENVIRONMENT DID NOT. It was WEIRD!!!
In every other place, there was definable mechanism at work.
The narrative changed personality. It did so jarringly.
And I'm definitely not alone in saying so.

The problem here is that most of smal outrage is coming from the ending and some didn't like that magic appeared even when Element Zero has been arond since ME1.  Its all opinion on the story and writing while its new that some people didn't like something specific.