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Why does everyone complain about space magic?


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#451
Xamufam

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Damn, you are really in denial

1. If it fits
2. not opinion

3. Element zero is established as the core of me, it's explained in a way that fits science fiction it works thats suspension of disbelief. You cant put anything that does not fit in a established universe.

4. Saren did only want to bring the reapers in to the galaxy, not synthesis, he was manipulated by sovereign to implant himself

5&6. terrible anwer

So 91% of 75000 votes does not imply there there is something is wrong with the game.

it was 1 or 2 guys from the original writing team even the original lead writer of me left

7. Not a lie it's fact

You can't just put information & a new main villain at the last 10 min of a story
Writing tip: don't rely on contrivance or coincidence

#452
m2iCodeJockey

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CalPal wrote...
So what I think might have happened in Mass Effect 3's ending was that Shepard's DNA code was uploaded into the Crucible, destroying his body in the process - again, somewhat similar to what happened with Legion on Rannoch - and allowing him to either control the Reapers or simply send out some kind of signal or "energy" that allowed all life, be it synthetic or organic, to share a unique code of some sort that allows such different forms of life to interact with each other as if they were all organics.

I know about the data storage test (by the way, that FRIGHTENS THE HELL out of me,) but WTF does a Shepard genetic code have to do with leaves on the Mystery Planet?
Or Krogan or EDI all ending up with glowing green eyes and access to a common memory?
The Reapers had plenty of genetic samples. Shepard's own was just a raindrop in the Grand Canyon.

The only logical reason to have Shepard jump in the beam is to screw up the beam.
Same with grabbing the electrodes (where it looks like something is missing) or shooting another part of the machine.

#453
CalPal

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m2iCodeJockey wrote...

CalPal wrote...
So what I think might have happened in Mass Effect 3's ending was that Shepard's DNA code was uploaded into the Crucible, destroying his body in the process - again, somewhat similar to what happened with Legion on Rannoch - and allowing him to either control the Reapers or simply send out some kind of signal or "energy" that allowed all life, be it synthetic or organic, to share a unique code of some sort that allows such different forms of life to interact with each other as if they were all organics.

I know about the data storage test (by the way, that FRIGHTENS THE HELL out of me,) but WTF does a Shepard genetic code have to do with leaves on the Mystery Planet?
Or Krogan or EDI all ending up with glowing green eyes and access to a common memory?
The Reapers had plenty of genetic samples. Shepard's own was just a raindrop in the Grand Canyon.

The only logical reason to have Shepard jump in the beam is to screw up the beam.
Same with grabbing the electrodes (where it looks like something is missing) or shooting another part of the machine.



... You care about the leaves on the mystery planet?  As if we haven't already visited other planets with leaves on them?

Right, well, if DNA is no different from computer code - as that article claims - and we can access data for information both wirelessly and via direct contact, then theoretically speaking, our collective history can be accessed by anyone at any time.  The glowing green eyes don't matter, that's just to show the synthesis process worked.  What matters is that, as if we were browsing the internet for historical information, all life can now easily perform this task without the help of electronic devices.  Our DNA and memories are possibly as easy to access as a saved Word document on a computer.

#454
Xamufam

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CalPal wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

You can;t explain the how things like synthesis works with the lore, therefore it's magic.
You can explain the vast majority of everything else in the universe, therefore it's not magic.


I might be a little late with the whole 'ME3 ending shenanigans', but I thought I might as well bring up this one news story that could actually help in defending the integrity of not just the Synthesis ending, but the Control as well (if anyone still complains about it).

http://www.extremete...o-a-single-gram

Direct quotes from the article:

"The work... basically treats DNA as just another digital storage device."
"To read the data stored on DNA, you simply sequence it... and convert each of the TGAC bases back into binary."

What this story seems to show is that DNA was never all that different from computer code in the first place.  In fact, it's theoretically an even MORE advanced form of computer code.  We saw this in ME3 as well, where Legion notes the Reaper upgrades in the Normandy, showing how the code looks more like a living cell than digital space.  In fact, we even saw this kind of thing in ME2 with Project Overlord, where David Archer was able to communicate with the Geth as an autistic person.

So what I think might have happened in Mass Effect 3's ending was that Shepard's DNA code was uploaded into the Crucible, destroying his body in the process - again, somewhat similar to what happened with Legion on Rannoch - and allowing him to either control the Reapers or simply send out some kind of signal or "energy" that allowed all life, be it synthetic or organic, to share a unique code of some sort that allows such different forms of life to interact with each other as if they were all organics.

It's a stretch and, honestly, I'm not really good with science, but I think this might actually be a sound possibility to explain and even justify the ME3 endings.  In fact, I would absolutely LOVE for future ME games to explore this idea of how DNA is advanced computer code.

Good article but
That was not synthesis, melding raw material with organic tissiue trough a magical wave & Shepard running into the beam sorry but it doesnt work that way, it would to change every atom of every living thing in the galaxy thats extreamely leathal.
And how can it see whats organic & whats raw material
+It didn't fit the story

Modifié par Troxa, 20 août 2012 - 06:16 .


#455
Memnon

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CalPal wrote...
...

"The work... basically treats DNA as just another digital storage device."
"To read the data stored on DNA, you simply sequence it... and convert each of the TGAC bases back into binary."

What this story seems to show is that DNA was never all that different from computer code in the first place.  In fact, it's theoretically an even MORE advanced form of computer code.  We saw this in ME3 as well, where Legion notes the Reaper upgrades in the Normandy, showing how the code looks more like a living cell than digital space.  In fact, we even saw this kind of thing in ME2 with Project Overlord, where David Archer was able to communicate with the Geth as an autistic person.

So what I think might have happened in Mass Effect 3's ending was that Shepard's DNA code was uploaded into the Crucible, destroying his body in the process - again, somewhat similar to what happened with Legion on Rannoch - and allowing him to either control the Reapers or simply send out some kind of signal or "energy" that allowed all life, be it synthetic or organic, to share a unique code of some sort that allows such different forms of life to interact with each other as if they were all organics.


I've said before that I can accept on some level the concept of Synthesis as something that may happen thousands or so years from now. What I absolutely cannot accept is the method of delivery - if all it needed was genetic material, why couldn't I just toss Anderson's body in there? And how in the heck does the beam target every single organic and synthetic in the galaxy, down to plants and microbes? I don't think anyone will be able to explain that one well enough ...

#456
m2iCodeJockey

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CalPal wrote...
... You care about the leaves on the mystery planet?  As if we haven't already visited other planets with leaves on them?

If you can see the crash site in high enough resolution, there are circuits on the surface of the leaves in Synthesis.

#457
CalPal

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Stornskar wrote...

CalPal wrote...
...

"The work... basically treats DNA as just another digital storage device."
"To read the data stored on DNA, you simply sequence it... and convert each of the TGAC bases back into binary."

What this story seems to show is that DNA was never all that different from computer code in the first place.  In fact, it's theoretically an even MORE advanced form of computer code.  We saw this in ME3 as well, where Legion notes the Reaper upgrades in the Normandy, showing how the code looks more like a living cell than digital space.  In fact, we even saw this kind of thing in ME2 with Project Overlord, where David Archer was able to communicate with the Geth as an autistic person.

So what I think might have happened in Mass Effect 3's ending was that Shepard's DNA code was uploaded into the Crucible, destroying his body in the process - again, somewhat similar to what happened with Legion on Rannoch - and allowing him to either control the Reapers or simply send out some kind of signal or "energy" that allowed all life, be it synthetic or organic, to share a unique code of some sort that allows such different forms of life to interact with each other as if they were all organics.


I've said before that I can accept on some level the concept of Synthesis as something that may happen thousands or so years from now. What I absolutely cannot accept is the method of delivery - if all it needed was genetic material, why couldn't I just toss Anderson's body in there? And how in the heck does the beam target every single organic and synthetic in the galaxy, down to plants and microbes? I don't think anyone will be able to explain that one well enough ...




The first problem with using another body is that Shepard doesn't have access to Anderson's body, since I don't think the Catalyst was willing to let Shepard go drag him back.  Also, he's dead anyways, so it wouldn't work with him or the hundreds of other dead humans inside as you made your way up there.  Finally, you don't have the time to really decide what you should do since, well, the Reapers are killing everyone.

For the second part, it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Citadel and Relay system being used to transmit the energy / "code" to all the rest of the galaxy.  Like how messages could be sent from Thessia to Earth or something like that.

#458
CalPal

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m2iCodeJockey wrote...

CalPal wrote...
... You care about the leaves on the mystery planet?  As if we haven't already visited other planets with leaves on them?

If you can see the crash site in high enough resolution, there are circuits on the surface of the leaves in Synthesis.


All right... and?  I suppose leaves and other organic material are now the equivalent of a PC or tablet to life intelligent enough to access it.

#459
Blueprotoss

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m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
So your "source" is some that was picky enough to complain about opinion when he didn't create Me in the 1st place.  This is just the written form of an angry video and its closest comparison is what happened with Episodes 1 through 3 of Star Wars.  Haters gonna hate.

Please show us a link to a poll, preferably on this site, that contradicts Troxa's and my own points.

All you want is bias and you're definately not looking for proof when only focusing on BSN.  I guess you have never looked into poll on offical forums or polls in general.

#460
Blueprotoss

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Troxa wrote...

Damn, you are really in denial

1. If it fits
2. not opinion

Thats ironic since its all about opinion.

Troxa wrote... 

3. Element zero is established as the core of me, it's explained in a way that fits science fiction it works thats suspension of disbelief. You cant put anything that does not fit in a established universe.

You just proved how magic is in the center of ME based on the magicall properties of Element Zero.

Troxa wrote...  

4. Saren did only want to bring the reapers in to the galaxy, not synthesis, he was manipulated by sovereign to implant himself

ME1 needs to talk you again.

Troxa wrote...  

5&6. terrible anwer

So 91% of 75000 votes does not imply there there is something is wrong with the game.

it was 1 or 2 guys from the original writing team even the original lead writer of me left

Bias is bias and you can never avoid bias on offical forums or on the Internet in general.  The closest fair thing is a survey while people will spam them to alter the results.  If polls were really accurate then George Bush Jr. wouldn't have been President and Romney wouldn't be the Republican Presidental candidate.

Troxa wrote...   

7. Not a lie it's fact

You can't just put information & a new main villain at the last 10 min of a story
Writing tip: don't rely on contrivance or coincidence

Maybe you should practice what you preach because the Catalyst wasn't anything new especially with the Prothean VI's warnings and the Reaper leader wasn't revealed.  You would have an easier case with Harbinger in ME2 while thats still a stretch.

#461
Blueprotoss

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m2iCodeJockey wrote...

No, actually. In the movies, they never discuss what's inside a saber hilt as far as I remember.
If I'm wrong, name a scene.

Its safe to say that you didn't see that scene based on I gave it to you and you sound confused.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

We're saying the same thing: "Stick to the freakin' lore."
TNG did a fair to good job sticking to it's timeline and lore.
DS9, good but, not as well.
Voyager couldn't remember warp drive limitations. It was painful to watch sometimes.

If thats the case then you wouldn't be complaining about ME3.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

If you look back, you'll see that I said "Eezo could not exist in real space." I know that.
What I also said summed up as: "The final scene is not a good place to introduce new lore." It was WEIRD!!!

Talking about the Reapers isn't anything especially with the little knowledge on them in the 1st place.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

If the endings mean what they appear, they are not liked.
If the ending is as "IT," it is a cliffhanger.

Some people not liking the end of something isn't anything new especially with Bioware games.


m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

I'm sure every product has it's objectors but, I broke "subject silence" to talk about ME as a whole and the reaction to it.

There usually isn't a silence especially when the topic of movies and video games are talked about on the Internet.

m2iCodeJockey wrote... 

I'm not refuting any originally stated position. I did not make a straw man argument.

Resorting to polls as evidence is a straw-mann in itself specially when the Internet is involved whether its Metacritic or an offical forum.  The closest fair thing is a survey while people will spam them to alter the results.  If polls were really accurate then George Bush Jr. wouldn't have been President and Romney wouldn't be the Republican Presidental candidate.

m2iCodeJockey wrote...  

A Gallup Poll, is considered valid when there are 1000 respondents to represent 300M Americans.
In Troxa's cited/linked example alone, there as many as 73570 respondents representing a much smaller populous (higher accuracy from higher representation.) This suggests most consumers were not happy with the product.
I'm sure I only got to click once and not 73000 times...

If polls were really as accurate as you think then George Bush Jr. wouldn't have been President and Romney wouldn't be the Republican Presidental candidate.  Troxa's link is just more bias especialy when most of it is Internet rage or entitlement.  Btw if that poll was accurate then it would be over 3 million.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 20 août 2012 - 07:48 .


#462
Xamufam

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[quote]Blueprotoss wrote...
[/quote]
[quote]Iozeph wrote...
The trouble with narrative
storytelling as opposed to pictures, is that pictures/paintings are made
to be seen and it's acceptable for meaning to be left to the viewer.
Yet words are to writers as palette, paint, and inks to a illustrators.
And a blank page isn't enough.

There's a compact between the
writer and the reader. As readers we accept that a work of fiction is a
carefully constructed fabrication, yes. Yet it's one in which we, as
readers, are 'in on' with the writer. There's an understanding that
there will be consistency which adheres within that written framework.
As readers we give our trust to the writer. All we'll ever know of the
world he's created are the bits he's shown to us.

Bad or good, are of course, subjective. I would even argue irrelevant.

Where
integrity breaks downs is when the writer breaks that compact- where he
either deliberately leaves details out that are germain/central to
explaining the narrative, or forgets them without later addressing them;
when he breaks consistency, either in plot or in character development,
but without giving solid causation leading toward it. Worse yet are the
times when he handwaves- when he lies or omits, is caught out, and then
says it doesn't matter. Let me just say that it does matter. Being
subtle is one thing, so long as there is a progression the reader is
able to follow. It needn't be grand or sweeping- perhaps no more than a
simple sentence given in passing, so long as it's there.

You
don't hide from or deceive your reader. You don't tie a blindfold over
their eyes and expect them love you for it. You just don't. I don't care
who you are. That's the worst sin a writer could ever commit. It shows
utter contempt for the reader.

A teacher once said to me, 'Never
write something on a page that you wouldn't want someone to read. The
words you write come from you. They are your soul in print.' The
integrity of an author and his work are so tightly woven together as to
be one. When a writer deceives a reader, it's not a matter of whether
having his integrity attacked becomes reasonable. He loses what no angry
reader or critic could ever hope to steal from him. He has no integrity
left.

The noteworthy quote from Tolkein:

[quote]
Inside it, what [the author] relates is 'true:' it accords
with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as
it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the
magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World
again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from the outside.
[/quote]

Modifié par Troxa, 20 août 2012 - 08:10 .


#463
Blueprotoss

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Troxa wrote...

The trouble with narrative
storytelling as opposed to pictures, is that pictures/paintings are made
to be seen and it's acceptable for meaning to be left to the viewer.
Yet words are to writers as palette, paint, and inks to a illustrators.
And a blank page isn't enough.

Its okay to say this because its an opinion while I'm surprised that some people have to complain over something thats free.

Troxa wrote... 

There's a compact between the
writer and the reader. As readers we accept that a work of fiction is a
carefully constructed fabrication, yes. Yet it's one in which we, as
readers, are 'in on' with the writer. There's an understanding that
there will be consistency which adheres within that written framework.
As readers we give our trust to the writer. All we'll ever know of the
world he's created are the bits he's shown to us.

Yet this pact was broken by the reader because the writer was always in charge epsecially when we're talking about video games, movies, tv shows, novels, and comics.

Troxa wrote... 

Bad or good, are of course, subjective. I would even argue irrelevant.

Yep writing is subjective by nature while its best to have a debate.

Troxa wrote... 

Where
integrity breaks downs is when the writer breaks that compact- where he
either deliberately leaves details out that are germain/central to
explaining the narrative, or forgets them without later addressing them;
when he breaks consistency, either in plot or in character development,
but without giving solid causation leading toward it. Worse yet are the
times when he handwaves- when he lies or omits, is caught out, and then
says it doesn't matter. Let me just say that it does matter. Being
subtle is one thing, so long as there is a progression the reader is
able to follow. It needn't be grand or sweeping- perhaps no more than a
simple sentence given in passing, so long as it's there.

Yet the pact in ME3 was broken by some of the players not the writers.  The perfect example is the straw-mann that some people use is that the writing team was changed throughout the ME series while the vast majority of the team members stayed while they switched roles in each installment and still had a consensus.

Troxa wrote... 

You
don't hide from or deceive your reader. You don't tie a blindfold over
their eyes and expect them love you for it. You just don't. I don't care
who you are. That's the worst sin a writer could ever commit. It shows
utter contempt for the reader.

Yet you described yourself, your teacher, and most of the ME3 ragers because you're focused on personal nippicks based on something thats designed around millions of people not a small group of individuals.

Troxa wrote... 

A teacher once said to me, 'Never
write something on a page that you wouldn't want someone to read. The
words you write come from you. They are your soul in print.' The
integrity of an author and his work are so tightly woven together as to
be one. When a writer deceives a reader, it's not a matter of whether
having his integrity attacked becomes reasonable. He loses what no angry
reader or critic could ever hope to steal from him. He has no integrity
left.

The noteworthy quote from Tolkein:

Inside it, what [the author] relates is 'true:' it accords
with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as
it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the
magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World
again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from the outside.

This is a good example of a contradiction especially when you're twisting Tolkien's words.  Tolkien did what he whether people loved him or hated him.  You're teacher is just overreacting because of fan entitlement while its nothing new to the video game or the movie industries for this year and any other year. 

#464
m2iCodeJockey

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Blueprotoss wrote...
If polls were really as accurate as you think then George Bush Jr. wouldn't have been President and Romney wouldn't be the Republican Presidental candidate. Troxa's link is just more bias especialy when most of it is Internet rage or entitlement. Btw if that poll was accurate then it would be over 3 million.

You stated my opinion was among the minority. I stated what I had observed and Troxa was kind enough to link (thanks.)
Troxa gave you links and show results of completely open and fair polls running on the site's own software.
Produce a poll on this site showing the contrary to that poll. I'd like to see if changing the way the question was asked will make a significant difference.

I wonder: How close was Troxa's poll to having the most respondents on this site?

#465
JPR1964

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JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.


Perhaps you should read more books of Scifi before understanding why space magic is bad, and worse, why it's bad in ME3 endings...

You know, books of real scifi writers, not some guy that patch a copycat idea at the end of an action game...

:whistle:

Sorry, I cannot restrain myself...

:innocent:

JPR out!

#466
TheSovietPenguin

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My definition of "space magic" is a bit different.

I have no problem with biotics, tech weapons, mass effects, etc, but when something huge happens with very little explaination or visual representation, I call it "space magic" since I have no idea how it happened.

(example: the citadel being moved to earth)

#467
Xamufam

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Not overreacting you cant just introduce something at the very end of a trilogy, ME3 is a contriavance from start to end, it's not a legitimite follow up to me1 & 2 & i am not twisting tolkiens words if you break the rules of the universe you created you break suspension of disbelief wich bioware have done.

#468
CalPal

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TheSovietPenguin wrote...

My definition of "space magic" is a bit different.

I have no problem with biotics, tech weapons, mass effects, etc, but when something huge happens with very little explaination or visual representation, I call it "space magic" since I have no idea how it happened.

(example: the citadel being moved to earth)


Okay, is it really so hard to believe that the Reapers are capable of moving the Citadel through a relay?!  I mean, we saw the entire military might of the Galaxy rush through the Sol relay at once, never mind that the Reapers likely did the same thing to both the Batarians and the Humans when they first went through.  I don't recal that Mass Relays have a limit on how big something is to let it through.  Also, it's THEIR technology; I think that alone should be a good enough explanation.

Also, it makes perfect strategic sense: instead of fighting out in the middle of space, why not position a key target over a home planet that you're already invading?  If those rounds from the dreadnoughts and cruisers ever miss their targets, guess where they're going?  Right on Earth, where they could either hit Reaper or Human resistance positions.  That means they have to spend extra time ensuring their shots hit their targets, which is less time actually spend firing at the Reapers.

#469
Blueprotoss

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JPR1964 wrote...

JC_aka_fps_john wrote...

It's science fiction. Science fiction is space magic.

Get over it.


Perhaps you should read more books of Scifi before understanding why space magic is bad, and worse, why it's bad in ME3 endings...

You know, books of real scifi writers, not some guy that patch a copycat idea at the end of an action game...

:whistle:

Sorry, I cannot restrain myself...

:innocent:

JPR out!


John Charter and Flash Gordon must be in the wrong then.

#470
Blueprotoss

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m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
If polls were really as accurate as you think then George Bush Jr. wouldn't have been President and Romney wouldn't be the Republican Presidental candidate. Troxa's link is just more bias especialy when most of it is Internet rage or entitlement. Btw if that poll was accurate then it would be over 3 million.

You stated my opinion was among the minority. I stated what I had observed and Troxa was kind enough to link (thanks.)
Troxa gave you links and show results of completely open and fair polls running on the site's own software.
Produce a poll on this site showing the contrary to that poll. I'd like to see if changing the way the question was asked will make a significant difference.

I wonder: How close was Troxa's poll to having the most respondents on this site?

Like I said before polls aren't accurate on offical board like BSN or on the Internet in general because of Internet rage and fan entitlement.  A survey is what you're looking for while there are still errors based on general negativaty and spamming.

#471
Blueprotoss

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Troxa wrote...

Not overreacting you cant just introduce something at the very end of a trilogy, ME3 is a contriavance from start to end, it's not a legitimite follow up to me1 & 2 & i am not twisting tolkiens words if you break the rules of the universe you created you break suspension of disbelief wich bioware have done.

How is introducing the Reaper leader a bad idea while if Harbinger was labeled as the leader in ME2 then some people would have freaked.  Either way you're damned if you do damned if you don't, which is petty by itself.  You are twisting his words by talking them out of context because he didn't  care if people hated or loved his work based on his general love for writing.

#472
Blueprotoss

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CalPal wrote...

TheSovietPenguin wrote...

My definition of "space magic" is a bit different.

I have no problem with biotics, tech weapons, mass effects, etc, but when something huge happens with very little explaination or visual representation, I call it "space magic" since I have no idea how it happened.

(example: the citadel being moved to earth)


Okay, is it really so hard to believe that the Reapers are capable of moving the Citadel through a relay?!  I mean, we saw the entire military might of the Galaxy rush through the Sol relay at once, never mind that the Reapers likely did the same thing to both the Batarians and the Humans when they first went through.  I don't recal that Mass Relays have a limit on how big something is to let it through.  Also, it's THEIR technology; I think that alone should be a good enough explanation.

Also, it makes perfect strategic sense: instead of fighting out in the middle of space, why not position a key target over a home planet that you're already invading?  If those rounds from the dreadnoughts and cruisers ever miss their targets, guess where they're going?  Right on Earth, where they could either hit Reaper or Human resistance positions.  That means they have to spend extra time ensuring their shots hit their targets, which is less time actually spend firing at the Reapers.

I wonder if a Reaper was Sun Tzu?  :D

#473
CalPal

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Well, considering every single reaper has been wiping out organic civilizations for at least 100,000+ years, I would not be surprised if even a single Sovereign-class Reaper puts Sun Tzu to shame.

#474
Tocquevillain

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Easy.

Humans IRL have managed to store 700 petabits into a gram of human DNA. Combined with wireless energy transfer (mentioned in ME2), presto, we have transmission.

#475
m2iCodeJockey

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Blueprotoss wrote...
A survey is what you're looking for while there are still errors based on general negativaty and spamming.

Far as I've seen, polls here only allow a single vote to be cast per user unless you know other wise.
Polls here, which do only allow a single vote, do show 60000+ say your opinion is minor out of 73000+ people.
You still haven't rendered anything other than your opinion.