503 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

robertthebard wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Suspension of disbelief. Most things, like FTL, are fine. They're explained within lore and make the experience better. Some things, like the Lazarus Project, start to stretch it. These aren't explained as well but we can get past them as long as they benefit the story. And a few things, namely Synthesis, completely shatter the suspension of disbelief. They either lack any sort of explanation or are explained in a way that only makes them more absurd i.e. New DNA WTF?! They don't benefit the overall plot of the game and are thus dismissed as space magic.

Start to stretch it?  The Lazarus Project is a bigger DeM than the Crucible will ever be.  I know, I know, "But Rob, DeM's are supposed to be a the end", and it is, at what is technically the end of ME 1.  Get over Space Magic, the only reason we're still playing after the outtro to ME 1 is Space Magic.

They at least created a BS excuse as to why it was possible... and guess what? People bought it.  When you offer an explanation, no matter how stupid, people will accept it, as long as there is a good reason to.  They didnt try and explain the endings in any even nominal terms to justify what we were seeing happen(outside of destroy, they kinda gave us a BS reason for that one).  The other endings were essentially... ya this happens.

[Tealjaker94]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'll just leave this here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device"
David Langford, corollary to Clarke's third law

The thing is, Clarke's law is fine when it's used as a framing device. Just to make something possible (i.e FTL space travel), and to move a plot forward. It fails completely when it's used as a main plot point. That's where Synthesis fails. If it were just the starting point to present a story (exploring the consequences of a Synthesized galaxy) it could work. It fails completely as a resolution.

And Clarke's laws aren't supposed to justify bad writing.

Excellent. QFT. This is exactly thre point I'm trying to make. Whether or not will be theoretically possible in 1000 years is irrelevant. It's bad story-telling.

[Xellith]

robertthebard wrote...

You mean not being dead at the beginning of ME 2?  Explain how.

The Lazarus Project[/b] was a Cerberus project, the sole purpose of which was to bring Commander Shepard back from the dead.

After Commander Shepard is killed in a Collector attack that results in the destruction of the SSV Normandy SR1, Cerberus is able to recover Shepard's corpse with the help of Liara T'Soni. The Illusive Man creates and funds the Lazarus Project, pouring virtually unlimited resources into the belief that only Shepard can stop the Reaper threat to humanity, as the Council stands idly by. The exorbitant project took 2 years, and over 4 billion credits. Undertaken by the Lazarus Cell which was headed by Miranda Lawson and her assistant Wilson, it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities.

As part of the project Shepard undergoes facial reconstruction, and a partial loss of prior abilities and talents. This explains why those who import a character from Mass Effect are able to change their appearance or class. However, this process does not change the Commander's sex. The project proved to be a success in 2185, when Shepard managed to regain full neurological activity.

-----
Okay so technology was used.  Cybernetic implants.  Prolly some Reaper Tech in there.  Brain was preserved apparantly.  I saw in the intro a mixture of chemicals were used.

Pseudoscientific explanation works for me.  Because - you know - there IS a pseudoSCIENTIFIC explanation.  Not just "your escence is awesome jump in the beam!"

Modifié par Xellith, 16 août 2012 - 11:54 .

[Mazebook]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'll just leave this here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device"
David Langford, corollary to Clarke's third law

The thing is, Clarke's law is fine when it's used as a framing device. Just to make something possible (i.e FTL space travel), and to move a plot forward. It fails completely when it's used as a main plot point. That's where Synthesis fails. If it were just the starting point to present a story (exploring the consequences of a Synthesized galaxy) it could work. It fails completely as a resolution.

And Clarke's laws aren't supposed to justify bad writing.

So a narrative should never introduce advanced technologie as a resolution?

That is actually a fair point. I disagree, because i find it interessting but I understand what´s your reasoning is.

It boils down to : i don´t like to speculate on something that is wide open for interpretation and justification.

but it does not make it bad writing...it just makes it writing you do not like.

 

Modifié par maaaze, 16 août 2012 - 11:55 .

[robertthebard]

Meltemph wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Suspension of disbelief. Most things, like FTL, are fine. They're explained within lore and make the experience better. Some things, like the Lazarus Project, start to stretch it. These aren't explained as well but we can get past them as long as they benefit the story. And a few things, namely Synthesis, completely shatter the suspension of disbelief. They either lack any sort of explanation or are explained in a way that only makes them more absurd i.e. New DNA WTF?! They don't benefit the overall plot of the game and are thus dismissed as space magic.

Start to stretch it?  The Lazarus Project is a bigger DeM than the Crucible will ever be.  I know, I know, "But Rob, DeM's are supposed to be a the end", and it is, at what is technically the end of ME 1.  Get over Space Magic, the only reason we're still playing after the outtro to ME 1 is Space Magic.

They at least created a BS excuse as to why it was possible... and guess what? People bought it.  When you offer an explanation, no matter how stupid, people will accept it, as long as there is a good reason to.  They didnt try and explain the endings in any even nominal terms to justify what we were seeing happen(outside of destroy, they kinda gave us a BS reason for that one).  The other endings were essentially... ya this happens.

Hmm, where was that BS excuse written out?  I'd like to see it.  If it's "I spent billions of credits..." then that's not even trying.  It is, pure and simple "accepted space magic".  It is a one off ploy to make you work for Cerberus.  AKA DeM.  There is no other explanation for it.  You can justify it for ME 2, but claim that Synthesis was a plot point, and therefore a bad use of space magic.  If being a plot point, and not having a rational, within the setting, explanation for it is bad, then the Lazarus Project is just as bad as the ending of ME 3.  It's not like the endings need any excuses for being bad.

[Tealjaker94]

robertthebard wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Suspension of disbelief. Most things, like FTL, are fine. They're explained within lore and make the experience better. Some things, like the Lazarus Project, start to stretch it. These aren't explained as well but we can get past them as long as they benefit the story. And a few things, namely Synthesis, completely shatter the suspension of disbelief. They either lack any sort of explanation or are explained in a way that only makes them more absurd i.e. New DNA WTF?! They don't benefit the overall plot of the game and are thus dismissed as space magic.

Start to stretch it?  The Lazarus Project is a bigger DeM than the Crucible will ever be.  I know, I know, "But Rob, DeM's are supposed to be a the end", and it is, at what is technically the end of ME 1.  Get over Space Magic, the only reason we're still playing after the outtro to ME 1 is Space Magic.

They at least created a BS excuse as to why it was possible... and guess what? People bought it.  When you offer an explanation, no matter how stupid, people will accept it, as long as there is a good reason to.  They didnt try and explain the endings in any even nominal terms to justify what we were seeing happen(outside of destroy, they kinda gave us a BS reason for that one).  The other endings were essentially... ya this happens.

Hmm, where was that BS excuse written out?  I'd like to see it.  If it's "I spent billions of credits..." then that's not even trying.  It is, pure and simple "accepted space magic".  It is a one off ploy to make you work for Cerberus.  AKA DeM.  There is no other explanation for it.  You can justify it for ME 2, but claim that Synthesis was a plot point, and therefore a bad use of space magic.  If being a plot point, and not having a rational, within the setting, explanation for it is bad, then the Lazarus Project is just as bad as the ending of ME 3.  It's not like the endings need any excuses for being bad.

It was a BS DEM. That doesn't mean that synthesis isn't.

[robertthebard]

Xellith wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You mean not being dead at the beginning of ME 2?  Explain how.

The Lazarus Project[/b] was a Cerberus project, the sole purpose of which was to bring Commander Shepard back from the dead.

After Commander Shepard is killed in a Collector attack that results in the destruction of the SSV Normandy SR1, Cerberus is able to recover Shepard's corpse with the help of Liara T'Soni. The Illusive Man creates and funds the Lazarus Project, pouring virtually unlimited resources into the belief that only Shepard can stop the Reaper threat to humanity, as the Council stands idly by. The exorbitant project took 2 years, and over 4 billion credits. Undertaken by the Lazarus Cell which was headed by Miranda Lawson and her assistant Wilson, it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities.

As part of the project Shepard undergoes facial reconstruction, and a partial loss of prior abilities and talents. This explains why those who import a character from Mass Effect are able to change their appearance or class. However, this process does not change the Commander's sex. The project proved to be a success in 2185, when Shepard managed to regain full neurological activity.

-----
Okay so technology was used.  Cybernetic implants.  Prolly some Reaper Tech in there.  Brain was preserved apparantly.  I saw in the intro a mixture of chemicals were used.

Pseudoscientific explanation works for me.  Because - you know - there IS a pseudoSCIENTIFIC explanation.  Not just "your escence is awesome jump in the beam!"

So they were able to completely reconstruct your body, which was just starting to burn up on reentry, because they spent billions of credits.  Got it, thanks...

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Rubios wrote...

Umm... if right now they added a codex entry that said:

"Crucible radiation is a rare form of energy released by eezo decay at trans-Plank temperatures. It propagates in a similar way to the electromagnetic spectrum but at lower speeds (3000m/s in vacuum) and alters nuclear forces of anything in its reach to match the atomic structure of the source."

Wouldn't it be space magic?

Because that makes as much sense as:

"Element zero is a material that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can raise or lower the mass of matter. A positive current increases mass, a negative current decreases it"

No. Oh and the crucible is shown to fire radiation at FTL speeds, since they reach the relays in a matter of seconds. Yes, light travelling faster than light.

Also you appear to have failed to understand how sci-fi is supposed to work. One big lie (usually ftl travel) is permitted even in hard sci-fi. In ME's case, it's eezo. That works because it was introduced at the start. At the onset we are explained the details of eezo so that suspension of disbelief may kick in.

Synthesis and its mechanism are introduced, and rather badly, only at the end.

[o Ventus]

maaaze wrote...

you are embarrassing yourself... this will not end well.


Yeah, except one of those two is physically impossible, and thus "magic".

Yes supernatural is not possible... but only because you know how to create fire with a device.

If the concept of fire would be alien to you...it would seem like magic to you. Because you would not even have the slightest Idea what it is. 

Also do you think we know everything about the universe and have discovered every possible technologie.
That is basicly what you are saying.

You're deliberately being anti-intellectual, aren't you? 

and you have no concept of the unknown? Every Scientist would tell you that we only know and understand very very little about the universe and possible technologies is known today. We can not foresee what will be known in 100 years.


Yeah... Effectively the same. Holy f**k. Are you deliberately ignoring what that statement means? 


NO! THEY ARE DIFFERENT! they only seem the same from your perspective...but they are totaly different...for christ sake...

THEY ARE NOT THE EFFECTIVLY THE SAME! they are totaly different because they have a different concept and source. 

got it?

What the f**k? I don't create fire with my mind because it's physically impossible, not because I can do it with a lighter. I'm pretty sure that out of the ~7 billion people on this planet, approximately NONE of them are pyromancers.

And no, I'm not saying that we've discovered "everything". If you want to be stupid and skew my words, go ahead.

"Effectively the same". They are, for all intents and purposes, the same. An AAA battery and an AA battery are both batteries. They are not the same kind of battery, but they fulfill the same purpose. They are effectively the same.

[Meltemph]

Hmm, where was that BS excuse written out? I'd like to see it. If it's "I spent billions of credits..." then that's not even trying. It is, pure and simple "accepted space magic". It is a one off ploy to make you work for Cerberus. AKA DeM. There is no other explanation for it. You can justify it for ME 2, but claim that Synthesis was a plot point, and therefore a bad use of space magic. If being a plot point, and not having a rational, within the setting, explanation for it is bad, then the Lazarus Project is just as bad as the ending of ME 3. It's not like the endings need any excuses for being bad.

That was what that whole video was for, right after the crash. The whole "we can rebuild him" scene was put there to give a goblygook answer to an otherwise stupid plot point. Also, there were not a lot of people ahppy with the lazerus project either, me included, cause it really want needed. Either way, they give an explination(he as upgrades) that cost a lot of money. And again, I already said, people will follow you into the fantastical aslong as you give them a reason, and you also prep them for what is about to happen.

Showing how shep fell into the atmosphere is a pretty obvious preperation for what was about to happen, and then the little video, followed by "upgrades that cost a lot of money" was the final to it. Yes it was stupid, yes people complained about it ALOT on the forums, when it released, but people fairly quickly learned to just deal with it.

For the endings to 3, I already explained to you why what it did at the end was so bad. If you feel I was wrong in any of my other posts about it, please feel free to point out where you disagree.

[Meltemph]

maaaze wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'll just leave this here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device"
David Langford, corollary to Clarke's third law

The thing is, Clarke's law is fine when it's used as a framing device. Just to make something possible (i.e FTL space travel), and to move a plot forward. It fails completely when it's used as a main plot point. That's where Synthesis fails. If it were just the starting point to present a story (exploring the consequences of a Synthesized galaxy) it could work. It fails completely as a resolution.

And Clarke's laws aren't supposed to justify bad writing.

So a narrative should never introduce advanced technologie as a resolution?

That is actually a fair point. I disagree, because i find it interessting but I understand what´s your reasoning is.

It boils down to : i don´t like to speculate on something that is wide open for interpretation and justification.

but it does not make it bad writing...it just makes it writing you do not like.

 

I ahve to say Maaze, that defense of liking the ending right there, came off as pretty insecure.  Specially the whole "I dont like speculating on wide interpretations" bit.  That is a fairly large assumption, just because you were satisfied with the ME3 end story plot point.

[Meltemph]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

This is just mind blowing...

I'm expected to believe that a brain survived FROM FALLING INTO ORBIT....

...but I'm not supposed to believe that DNA can be re-written from a beam of energy that was just introduced to a organic-synthetic hybrid?

You are not really good at the whole Red herring thing, huh?

[Chaotic-Fusion]

maaaze wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'll just leave this here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device"
David Langford, corollary to Clarke's third law

The thing is, Clarke's law is fine when it's used as a framing device. Just to make something possible (i.e FTL space travel), and to move a plot forward. It fails completely when it's used as a main plot point. That's where Synthesis fails. If it were just the starting point to present a story (exploring the consequences of a Synthesized galaxy) it could work. It fails completely as a resolution.

And Clarke's laws aren't supposed to justify bad writing.

So a narrative should never introduce advanced technologie as a resolution?

That is actually a fair point. I disagree, because i find it interessting but I understand what´s your reasoning is.

It boils down to : i don´t like to speculate on something that is wide open for interpretation and justification.

but it does not make it bad writing...it just makes it writing you do not like.

 

It doesn't work in sci-fi. It could work in another genre, in another story. In fantasy perhaps. There you're dealing with the unknown and the supernatural.

You can leave a story open to interpretion and speculation without being deliberately confusing. Synthesis fails at that. Oh it fails so badly. 

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Rubios wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Umm... if right now they added a codex entry that said:

"Crucible radiation is a rare form of energy released by eezo decay at trans-Plank temperatures. It propagates in a similar way to the electromagnetic spectrum but at lower speeds (3000m/s in vacuum) and alters nuclear forces of anything in its reach to match the atomic structure of the source."

Wouldn't it be space magic?

Because that makes as much sense as:

"Element zero is a material that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can raise or lower the mass of matter. A positive current increases mass, a negative current decreases it"

No. Oh and the crucible is shown to fire radiation at FTL speeds, since they reach the relays in a matter of seconds. Yes, light travelling faster than light.

Also you appear to have failed to understand how sci-fi is supposed to work. One big lie (usually ftl travel) is permitted even in hard sci-fi. In ME's case, it's eezo. That works because it was introduced at the start. At the onset we are explained the details of eezo so that suspension of disbelief may kick in.

Synthesis and its mechanism are introduced, and rather badly, only at the end.

Nope, they show the Normandy outrunning the wave.

The Normandy travels at FTL speeds.

[D24O]

OP you are space magic.

[Xellith]

robertthebard wrote...

Xellith wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You mean not being dead at the beginning of ME 2?  Explain how.

The Lazarus Project[/b] was a Cerberus project, the sole purpose of which was to bring Commander Shepard back from the dead.

After Commander Shepard is killed in a Collector attack that results in the destruction of the SSV Normandy SR1, Cerberus is able to recover Shepard's corpse with the help of Liara T'Soni. The Illusive Man creates and funds the Lazarus Project, pouring virtually unlimited resources into the belief that only Shepard can stop the Reaper threat to humanity, as the Council stands idly by. The exorbitant project took 2 years, and over 4 billion credits. Undertaken by the Lazarus Cell which was headed by Miranda Lawson and her assistant Wilson, it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities.

As part of the project Shepard undergoes facial reconstruction, and a partial loss of prior abilities and talents. This explains why those who import a character from Mass Effect are able to change their appearance or class. However, this process does not change the Commander's sex. The project proved to be a success in 2185, when Shepard managed to regain full neurological activity.

-----
Okay so technology was used.  Cybernetic implants.  Prolly some Reaper Tech in there.  Brain was preserved apparantly.  I saw in the intro a mixture of chemicals were used.

Pseudoscientific explanation works for me.  Because - you know - there IS a pseudoSCIENTIFIC explanation.  Not just "your escence is awesome jump in the beam!"

So they were able to completely reconstruct your body, which was just starting to burn up on reentry, because they spent billions of credits.  Got it, thanks...

I noticed you missed the bits where it mentioned TECHNOLOGY was used to do it. But okay if you want to continue being ignorant.  That's fine with me.  Oh and Shepard wasnt "reconstructed".  That would mean you made something using the same materials you started with correct?  As far as Im aware they rebuilt using metal and stuff and only used a fraction of the original material.  Hence you being a cyborg.

Modifié par Xellith, 17 août 2012 - 12:11 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

LOL @ OP.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 17 août 2012 - 12:09 .

[Chaotic-Fusion]

D24O wrote...

OP you are space magic.

So he/she started the topic in a cunning attempt to make us accept him/her? Devious...

Modifié par Chaotic-Fusion, 17 août 2012 - 12:12 .

[o Ventus]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

This is just mind blowing...

I'm expected to believe that a brain survived FROM FALLING INTO ORBIT....

...but I'm not supposed to believe that DNA can be re-written from a beam of energy that was just introduced to a organic-synthetic hybrid?

Yes. Primarily because that isn't how DNA works. It is literally impossible to instantaneously transform a fully organic human being into a half-synthetic organism without taking into account psychological factors, biological factors, physiological factors, etc. Doubly so for all of humanity, and infinitely so for every living organism in the entire galaxy.

Except, that's what Synthesis does.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Rubios wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Umm... if right now they added a codex entry that said:

"Crucible radiation is a rare form of energy released by eezo decay at trans-Plank temperatures. It propagates in a similar way to the electromagnetic spectrum but at lower speeds (3000m/s in vacuum) and alters nuclear forces of anything in its reach to match the atomic structure of the source."

Wouldn't it be space magic?

Because that makes as much sense as:

"Element zero is a material that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can raise or lower the mass of matter. A positive current increases mass, a negative current decreases it"

No. Oh and the crucible is shown to fire radiation at FTL speeds, since they reach the relays in a matter of seconds. Yes, light travelling faster than light.

Also you appear to have failed to understand how sci-fi is supposed to work. One big lie (usually ftl travel) is permitted even in hard sci-fi. In ME's case, it's eezo. That works because it was introduced at the start. At the onset we are explained the details of eezo so that suspension of disbelief may kick in.

Synthesis and its mechanism are introduced, and rather badly, only at the end.

Nope, they show the Normandy outrunning the wave.

The Normandy travels at FTL speeds.

See the vid.

Look at the exhaust. It's clearly using eezo. The fact that the video shows it to be incredibly slow doesn't mean it really is. Otherwise it would be over in less than a nanosecond. It's slowed down.

Modifié par Chaotic-Fusion, 17 août 2012 - 12:17 .

[SMichelle]

UniqueName001 wrote...


So what you are saying is, that you would have no problem with any of the following endings:

The Normandy was secretly a transformer and turns into a giant robot with a laser sword and kills all of the Reapers

Liara finds an ancient tiara which turns her into Sailor Thessia and she defeats the Reapers with the power of "love"

The entire series turns out to be a dream by the last existing human in his suspended animation sleeper pod launched from Earth during the green goo cataclysm

+100 for awesomeness!