253 réponses à ce sujet

[Asharad Hett]

chemiclord wrote...

Really? What other games both define a character yet leave it undefined for player definition?

Do enlighten me.

The Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim.   DragonAgeOrigins.  Just about every RPG out there? 

[AlanC9]

The TES PCs are defined? As characters? I don't think you two are talking about the same concept here.

[chemiclord]

AlanC9 wrote...

The TES PCs are defined? As characters? I don't think you two are talking about the same concept here.

We aren't.  They've described "brick" characters.

Basically, show me a defined undefined character.  It's a contradiction of terms.  You CAN'T have a fully customizable dialogue (aka a player defined character), that the game already has a definition for.  That's when you get player complaints like ME3's Shepard.

[Lyrandori]

Yes, the Mass Effect universe can exist without Shepard.

But my Shepard cannot exist without Liara.

[The Heretic of Time]

Chemiclord you're begging the question. No-one asked for a defined undefined character, all we asked for is a character who isn't a dumb brick and with lots of dialogue options (no auto-dialogue).

You can have either a defined character who is smart and with lots of of dialogue options (e.g. Geralt from The Witcher), or you can have an undefined character with lots of dialogue options (e.g. the Warden from DA:O). I'm fine with either, as long as it isn't another character like Shepard, because Shepard is a pretty lame and dumb character. Not to mention the tons of auto-dialogue in ME3 that sucked balls.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 juin 2013 - 05:34 .

[The Heretic of Time]

PHGDAL wrote...

Why? You dislike it when a story is great and has a great hero? Boy, your childhood must have been awful to hate Superman, Ironman, Batman, James Bond, and many other hero stories...

You seem to be under the illusion that Mass Effect has a great story with a great hero. 

[PHGDAL]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

PHGDAL wrote...

Why? You dislike it when a story is great and has a great hero? Boy, your childhood must have been awful to hate Superman, Ironman, Batman, James Bond, and many other hero stories...

You seem to be under the illusion that Mass Effect has a great story with a great hero. 

It's supposed to be. After all, he defeats Sovereign, he defeats the Collectors, and then he defeats the Reapers. And he did most of that with people telling him he was delusional. I would call that heroic. And Heroes tend not to die in stories (Why? Because they are supposed to be idealistic not realistic).

[Iakus]

Mass Effect can survive without Shepard.

What's I doubt is if Mass Effect can survive the forced treatment Shepard received at th end

[Seboist]

PHGDAL wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

PHGDAL wrote...

Why? You dislike it when a story is great and has a great hero? Boy, your childhood must have been awful to hate Superman, Ironman, Batman, James Bond, and many other hero stories...

You seem to be under the illusion that Mass Effect has a great story with a great hero. 

It's supposed to be. After all, he defeats Sovereign, he defeats the Collectors, and then he defeats the Reapers. And he did most of that with people telling him he was delusional. I would call that heroic. And Heroes tend not to die in stories (Why? Because they are supposed to be idealistic not realistic).

Joker and the SR-1 defeated Sovereign and the Collectors were too pathethically weak to have ever achieved their goal.

[The Heretic of Time]

PHGDAL wrote...

And Heroes tend not to die in stories (Why? Because they are supposed to be idealistic not realistic).

Actually most idealistic heroes always have the hero dying at the end of the story, "sacrifice for the greater good" and all that. The biggest and most well-known example obviously is the story of Jesus Christ, the most idealistic character ever created, who sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity.

Since Shepard basically is Space-Jesus, it was kind of predictable and cliché that he would die at the end of ME3. People who didn't see that coming were really blind.


Idealistic heroes are boring, especially Shepard, who basically is just a dumb brick. His victories were nothing more than just pure dumb luck.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 juin 2013 - 04:09 .

[Iakus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

PHGDAL wrote...

And Heroes tend not to die in stories (Why? Because they are supposed to be idealistic not realistic).

Actually most idealistic heroes always have the hero dying at the end of the story, "sacrifice for the greater good" and all that. The biggest and most well-known example obviously is the story of Jesus Christ, the most idealistic character ever created, who sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity.

Since Shepard basically is Space-Jesus, it was kind of predictable and cliché that he would die at the end of ME3. People who didn't see that coming were really blind.


Idealistic heroes are boring, especially Shepard, who basically is just a dumb brick. His victories were nothing more than just pure dumb luck.

Thank you for showing us the error of our ways and instructing us in what to think.

[jtav]

Heretic_Hanar has a point even if a) he's being a jerk ans idealism isn't dull. Shepard's problem is that idealism is easy in the ME-verse. He never has to give up anything meaningful, except at the very end. A simple Charm solves everything, even when it shouldn't. So one gets the impression, not that Shep is virtuous, but that the dice are loaded in his favor..

[Iakus]

The whole trilogy was basically showing that "nothing is inevitable" You're breaking cycles that have existed for thougands, even millions of years

But telling the player at the very end that Shepard "exists because we allow it and will end because we demand it" is not a good way to inspire faith in future titles.

And that's not even going into the "conform or the galaxy dies" choice that's so morally dark grey I can't see my hand in front of my face in it.

That's what's going to kill MAss Effect more than the simple loss of SHepard.

Modifié par iakus, 06 juin 2013 - 04:38 .

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

Heretic_Hanar has a point even if a) he's being a jerk ans idealism isn't dull. Shepard's problem is that idealism is easy in the ME-verse. He never has to give up anything meaningful, except at the very end. A simple Charm solves everything, even when it shouldn't. So one gets the impression, not that Shep is virtuous, but that the dice are loaded in his favor..

That may be the case, but...

If you're going to do a Dark and Gritty Reboot of the univers, do it with a new trilogy, don't rewrite the story in the final volume.  Wait until JJ Abrams is directing before destroying Vulcan.

[JonathonPR]

It already did with ME2 and ME3. Replicant Shepard stepping in for real Shepard who was wounded beyond the ability to function meaningfully. Cerberus comes in and along with the help of one of Shepard allies creates a cover story. Graft memories from vegetable Shepard into techno organic replica and send it out to be for all intensive purposes Shepard. Only one replica was stable enough to use. In ME3 we find out that Cerberus unknowingly created the replicant Shepard to move the Reapers' objectives further. In the end the replicant had been gathering information that the Reapers used to determine the next stage of the cycles. The mental stability of the replicant broke down as its reaper programming became more active and the information was incorporated by the auxiliary mind. The replicant died on the floor as its mind tried to interperate the data being uploaded by the Reapers. Had the current cycle reached the stage of autonomous self control so they would reach reaper goals on their own. Thus allowing the Reapers to disengage from their ships and turn their sights to other galaxies. Was a direct hand in the governing of the cycle races more appropriate. Using the guise of the Shepard figure head they had cultivated. Did the biology of the Cycle races need to be changed and monitored directly. Or was the data inconclusive and the cycle repeated again. Go watch Blade Runner.

[The Heretic of Time]

iakus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

PHGDAL wrote...

And Heroes tend not to die in stories (Why? Because they are supposed to be idealistic not realistic).

Actually most idealistic heroes always have the hero dying at the end of the story, "sacrifice for the greater good" and all that. The biggest and most well-known example obviously is the story of Jesus Christ, the most idealistic character ever created, who sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity.

Since Shepard basically is Space-Jesus, it was kind of predictable and cliché that he would die at the end of ME3. People who didn't see that coming were really blind.


Idealistic heroes are boring, especially Shepard, who basically is just a dumb brick. His victories were nothing more than just pure dumb luck.

Thank you for showing us the error of our ways and instructing us in what to think.

You're welcome.

That will be $1,50. Unlike Jesus and Shepard I'm not an idealistic hero, so my services do not come for free. Now pay up please. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 juin 2013 - 05:56 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

how dare you compare Jesus to a stupid videogame character

Modifié par IntelligentME3Fanboy, 06 juin 2013 - 06:10 .

[KaiserShep]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

how dare you compare jesus to a stupid videogame character

I'm pretty sure Shepard could create a biotic field strong enough to walk on water for a short distance. 

[The Heretic of Time]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

how dare you compare jesus to a stupid videogame character

Yeah, you're right, I did not mean to insult Jesus. Jesus is much cooler than Shepard, smarter too.  I mean, who cares about biotics and high-tech weaponry when you can turn water into wine!?!? 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 juin 2013 - 05:44 .

[Reorte]

jtav wrote...

Heretic_Hanar has a point even if a) he's being a jerk ans idealism isn't dull. Shepard's problem is that idealism is easy in the ME-verse. He never has to give up anything meaningful, except at the very end. A simple Charm solves everything, even when it shouldn't. So one gets the impression, not that Shep is virtuous, but that the dice are loaded in his favor..

I sort of agree and disagree, since for most of the time Mass Effect involved the straightforward can always achieve the impossible old-fashioned hero. The problem with having to give up anything is that it usually feels like the writers are dicking with you; my preference (if at all possible) is that it should be possible to achieve that but it should be damned near impossible, even with metagaming. I want having to accept losses to punch me in the gut because it's my fault they happened, because I wasn't good enough.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

how dare you compare jesus to a stupid videogame character

Yeah, you're right, I did not mean to insult Jesus. Jesus is much cooler than Shepard, smarter too.  I mean, who cares about biotics and high-tech weaponry when you can turn water into wine!?!? 

Pff americans

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

KaiserShep wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

how dare you compare jesus to a stupid videogame character

I'm pretty sure Shepard could create a biotic field strong enough to walk on water for a short distance. 

i'm pretty sure shepard is an imaginary stupid videogame character in a stupid videogame no one cares about

[The Heretic of Time]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

how dare you compare jesus to a stupid videogame character

Yeah, you're right, I did not mean to insult Jesus. Jesus is much cooler than Shepard, smarter too.  I mean, who cares about biotics and high-tech weaponry when you can turn water into wine!?!? 

Pff americans

What about them?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 juin 2013 - 06:19 .

[KaiserShep]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

how dare you compare jesus to a stupid videogame character

I'm pretty sure Shepard could create a biotic field strong enough to walk on water for a short distance. 

i'm pretty sure shepard is an imaginary stupid videogame character in a stupid videogame no one cares about

Yeah, but only one of them gets to fight aliens and robots. I can tell who the winner is in this round. 

Morocco Mole wrote...

What ending would Jesus choose?

The one where Shepard convinces the AI to shoot the power conduit itself. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 juin 2013 - 06:26 .