Cerberus has been a supremely frustrating aspect of the Mass Effect series, for me.
We went from a completely evil, mad science type of rogue, private organization responsible for a lot of people's problems, misery, loss, etc. (especially if you played the Survivor route), to an extremist, pro-human and rogue private organization - that you have to work for - that is given a lot of effort (and pushes it, sometimes) to be portrayed as a much more gray, arguably even useful/good institution, to this organization that has an unbelievable amount of power and money that is either as or more purely, blatantly evil and mustache-twirling than they were ever before.
They are given less time to be explained, fleshed out, etc. in 3 (there just sort of...there), yet more time is spent on them doing shenanigans than the Reapers. Why?
I have a feeling this has less to do with intention and more to do with a lot of scrapped plans, changes, etc. Still, I thought it would be worth asking for answers or thoughts on the matter.
The Jumps Between the Portrayals of Cerberus
Débuté par
en2ym3
, août 17 2012 04:28
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#3
Posté 17 août 2012 - 04:40
Hrothdane
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The way I have chosen to make sense of the dichotomy between super-evil Cerberus and well-intentioned extremist Cerberus is that it was always super-evil. Keep in mind, that while I have some circumstantial evidence that supports my theory, I don't think of it as anything more than headcanon.
We know that TIM organized Cerberus into independent cells with no connection to each other. We also know that he specifically set up the Normandy SR-2 and the crew as a method to make Shepard more "comfortable" working with him. The Illusive Man created the "illusion" that Cerberus was really just a well-intentioned group with extreme methods for Shepard. He never cared about the human colonists, except inasmuch as he needed to to keep Shepard working for him. He wanted the Collector technology for himself so that he could move forward with his other plans, which is why he gets so angry and even orders Miranda to stop Shepard when he/she decides to destroy the base.
We know that TIM organized Cerberus into independent cells with no connection to each other. We also know that he specifically set up the Normandy SR-2 and the crew as a method to make Shepard more "comfortable" working with him. The Illusive Man created the "illusion" that Cerberus was really just a well-intentioned group with extreme methods for Shepard. He never cared about the human colonists, except inasmuch as he needed to to keep Shepard working for him. He wanted the Collector technology for himself so that he could move forward with his other plans, which is why he gets so angry and even orders Miranda to stop Shepard when he/she decides to destroy the base.
#4
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:02
Han Shot First
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Hrothdane wrote...
We know that TIM organized Cerberus into independent cells with no connection to each other. We also know that he specifically set up the Normandy SR-2 and the crew as a method to make Shepard more "comfortable" working with him. The Illusive Man created the "illusion" that Cerberus was really just a well-intentioned group with extreme methods for Shepard. He never cared about the human colonists, except inasmuch as he needed to to keep Shepard working for him. He wanted the Collector technology for himself so that he could move forward with his other plans, which is why he gets so angry and even orders Miranda to stop Shepard when he/she decides to destroy the base.
Pretty much this.
#5
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:14
WarGriffin
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Me3 need an enemy for Shepard to win against
and you can only thrawt the Reaper advance so much before they lose thier villian cred
Therefore
Cerberus is needed to job out so the Reapers can stay strong looking.
and you can only thrawt the Reaper advance so much before they lose thier villian cred
Therefore
Cerberus is needed to job out so the Reapers can stay strong looking.
#6
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:24
Hackulator
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It never made any sense that you were joining Cerberus in 2. In ME1 they murdered an Alliance Admiral and his whole team, AND you discover that they are responsible for the defining tragedy of your life (if you are a sole survivor) and they murdered your whole squad from before the game. In fact, the Cerberus scientist in ME1 is one of the only people who I let die that you have the choice to save in the whole series.
#7
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:29
Firesaber82
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Hrothdane wrote...
The way I have chosen to make sense of the dichotomy between super-evil Cerberus and well-intentioned extremist Cerberus is that it was always super-evil. Keep in mind, that while I have some circumstantial evidence that supports my theory, I don't think of it as anything more than headcanon.
We know that TIM organized Cerberus into independent cells with no connection to each other. We also know that he specifically set up the Normandy SR-2 and the crew as a method to make Shepard more "comfortable" working with him. The Illusive Man created the "illusion" that Cerberus was really just a well-intentioned group with extreme methods for Shepard. He never cared about the human colonists, except inasmuch as he needed to to keep Shepard working for him. He wanted the Collector technology for himself so that he could move forward with his other plans, which is why he gets so angry and even orders Miranda to stop Shepard when he/she decides to destroy the base.
Having just replayed ME2, and after knowing what we know from 3, I pretty much completely agree with this explination. If you really pay attention in 2, after knowing what TIM wanted in 3, it's pretty obvious he's playing you.
#8
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:29
dreman9999
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There still is a clear reason why anyway. It's not that cerberus turned evil....They were always extremist and now that they want to control the reapers they are ageint you who wants to destroy them.WarGriffin wrote...
Me3 need an enemy for Shepard to win against
and you can only thrawt the Reaper advance so much before they lose thier villian cred
Therefore
Cerberus is needed to job out so the Reapers can stay strong looking.
#9
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:31
dreman9999
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Yep....From now on, If any person ask why cerberus is suddenly evil in ME3, ask them if they ever truely trusted Cerberus and TIM in the first place.Firesaber82 wrote...
Hrothdane wrote...
The way I have chosen to make sense of the dichotomy between super-evil Cerberus and well-intentioned extremist Cerberus is that it was always super-evil. Keep in mind, that while I have some circumstantial evidence that supports my theory, I don't think of it as anything more than headcanon.
We know that TIM organized Cerberus into independent cells with no connection to each other. We also know that he specifically set up the Normandy SR-2 and the crew as a method to make Shepard more "comfortable" working with him. The Illusive Man created the "illusion" that Cerberus was really just a well-intentioned group with extreme methods for Shepard. He never cared about the human colonists, except inasmuch as he needed to to keep Shepard working for him. He wanted the Collector technology for himself so that he could move forward with his other plans, which is why he gets so angry and even orders Miranda to stop Shepard when he/she decides to destroy the base.
Having just replayed ME2, and after knowing what we know from 3, I pretty much completely agree with this explination. If you really pay attention in 2, after knowing what TIM wanted in 3, it's pretty obvious he's playing you.
#10
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:37
WarGriffin
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dreman9999 wrote...
There still is a clear reason why anyway. It's not that cerberus turned evil....They were always extremist and now that they want to control the reapers they are ageint you who wants to destroy them.WarGriffin wrote...
Me3 need an enemy for Shepard to win against
and you can only thrawt the Reaper advance so much before they lose thier villian cred
Therefore
Cerberus is needed to job out so the Reapers can stay strong looking.
I ill not argue they aren't evil... but being a well written Villians is one thing
In ME3 TIM is just a blue head mask away from Cobra commander
#11
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:45
mrbthq
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Hackulator wrote...
It never made any sense that you were joining Cerberus in 2. In ME1 they murdered an Alliance Admiral and his whole team, AND you discover that they are responsible for the defining tragedy of your life (if you are a sole survivor) and they murdered your whole squad from before the game. In fact, the Cerberus scientist in ME1 is one of the only people who I let die that you have the choice to save in the whole series.
Pretty much my problem with Cerberus in 2, would have been hard to justify working with them after all the trouble they caused in me1 (if you played through the side quests). A sole survivor shepard that had done all the side quests in me1 would have no reason to trust cerberus even if they did bring him back imo, shepard would have just formed his own team to look into the reaper threat without cerberus.
#12
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:52
dreman9999
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Please. Everyone that says that misses the fact they have a reason for doing what they are doing. CC want to rule the world but had no clear reasons why. TIM wants to control the reapers and have a clear reason why. Take the time to listen to everything in cronos station(Including the Kia Lang logs.) And you'll understand why cerberus did what they did.WarGriffin wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
There still is a clear reason why anyway. It's not that cerberus turned evil....They were always extremist and now that they want to control the reapers they are ageint you who wants to destroy them.WarGriffin wrote...
Me3 need an enemy for Shepard to win against
and you can only thrawt the Reaper advance so much before they lose thier villian cred
Therefore
Cerberus is needed to job out so the Reapers can stay strong looking.
I ill not argue they aren't evil... but being a well written Villians is one thing
In ME3 TIM is just a blue head mask away from Cobra commander
Modifié par dreman9999, 17 août 2012 - 06:06 .
#13
Posté 17 août 2012 - 05:54
dreman9999
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There a clear reason why in ME2.....It just that you don't have to like it. How else were you going to stop the collectors?mrbthq wrote...
Hackulator wrote...
It never made any sense that you were joining Cerberus in 2. In ME1 they murdered an Alliance Admiral and his whole team, AND you discover that they are responsible for the defining tragedy of your life (if you are a sole survivor) and they murdered your whole squad from before the game. In fact, the Cerberus scientist in ME1 is one of the only people who I let die that you have the choice to save in the whole series.
Pretty much my problem with Cerberus in 2, would have been hard to justify working with them after all the trouble they caused in me1 (if you played through the side quests). A sole survivor shepard that had done all the side quests in me1 would have no reason to trust cerberus even if they did bring him back imo, shepard would have just formed his own team to look into the reaper threat without cerberus.
If you listen to EDI's cronos station log, you would know going awall with her shackled would had you vented into space.
#14
Posté 17 août 2012 - 06:30
killdozer9211
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I've always felt cerberus got screwed in the story worst of all.
They went from being this machiavellian, CIA-like group of men willing to do evil things for their perception of "The Greater Good" to "The only sheriff in town" to C.O.B.R.A.
The only thing that's really stayed consistent with them is their Team Rocket-esque record of failing their every undertaking. Honestly, it's like watching one of those stock-footage compilations of all the crazy ways early 20th century humans tried to fly.
Threasher maws? Didn't work.
Rachni? Didn't work.
Thorian creepers? Even exo geni made it work for a while but cerberus sure couldn't.
Husks? Well, that's as close as they got to having something work out...
Shepard? Didn't work at all.
The only thing they ever did right was kill one admiral who was asking too many questions, and in the end, that didn't really end well for them.
Where does one even start when it comes to grievances about their development?
They went from a renegade black op doing what it was created to do to some kind of privately funded al quaeda that everybody and nobody knew about at the same time to a private army that just wanted to ruin everyone's day.
The original normandy was criticised for costing as much as a fleet or a carrier or something prohibitively expensive like that, and all of a sudden, the xenophobic 1% of the human race throw in enough money to build a technologically superior successor ship twice the size, crew it with a well trained, well paid crew with some fairly decent benefits including but not limited to the ability to relocate individual grunts' families on an interstellar basis on a moments notice, and to top it all off, a cybernetics program that brings back a patient so dead that if Frankenstein watched the movie "The Fifth Element" he still would say it was impossible!
All of this was almost made believable when EDI told me that A) the lazarus cell nearly bankrupted cerberus and
there were only around 150 Personnel in cerberus. It raised my eyebrows, seeing as at the time I had seen at least two space stations, my ship's worth of crew, the Illusive man and whereever he was' support staff, and then a few researchers and operatives involved in my assignments, but I assumed that for the most part, they were still that small time op that was working out of prefabricated colony buildings from 1 and I was just able to see the rest of the iceberg because I was now on the inside.
Needless to say, this all went out the window in 3 when this black op, tiny splinter extremist group suddenly has a flotilla of advanced starships and fighters and an army whose fighting skill rivals that of the Alliance's marines, all armed with in-house developed, cutting edge weapons. Well, except for the mattock. I never got why centurions were wielding colonial-militia grade weapons while the grunts got hornets, but whatever. They should really patch the game to replace those mattock skins with harrier skins at least, but that's just my opinion. On top of this, they boast the ability to implant biotic abilities into non-potential subjects (See ME: Infiltrator) and pioneered lash technology and controlled indoctrination.
That's just silly. Undignified, even. And then to add insult to injury, Mass Effect 3 goes out of the way to kick the viewpoints of people like Miranda Lawson and Kelly Chambers clear out of the picture, just so they can seem undenyingly evil, when in reality, the only way an organization like this would be able to exist is if it were made of like-minded people. That really rustled my Jimmies. Until 3, I proudly stood by Cerberus, because the point correctly made so many times throughout 2 was "Something's up, and the most expedient way to put an end to these interstellar shenanigans is to go the back route and get results like Cerberus is so willing and able to do."
I still proudly subscribe to the school of thought that, like the most consequential choice of Mass Effect was whether to preserve the status quo and save the council or be an opportunist and install a human regime (even though it gets swept under the rug in 2; BIG MISTAKE BIOWARE, A HUMAN EMPIRE INSTATED BY SHEP WOULD'VE BEEN THE ULTIMATE RENEGADE ENDING TO BALANCE THE SAVING OF THE COUNCIL!) the choice at the end of 2 should've been if you'd stay with the council and alliance, and fight the reapers in 3 by the book as a specter, or if you'd stay with cerberus and do things without sanction and approval of the galactic community, but at the benefit of fewer rules and regulations to keep you from getting the absolute results you want. The former offering a conventional, united front victory, and the latter offering a more logistic, painstakingly assembled superbomb or achilles' heel type victory.
They went from being this machiavellian, CIA-like group of men willing to do evil things for their perception of "The Greater Good" to "The only sheriff in town" to C.O.B.R.A.
The only thing that's really stayed consistent with them is their Team Rocket-esque record of failing their every undertaking. Honestly, it's like watching one of those stock-footage compilations of all the crazy ways early 20th century humans tried to fly.
Threasher maws? Didn't work.
Rachni? Didn't work.
Thorian creepers? Even exo geni made it work for a while but cerberus sure couldn't.
Husks? Well, that's as close as they got to having something work out...
Shepard? Didn't work at all.
The only thing they ever did right was kill one admiral who was asking too many questions, and in the end, that didn't really end well for them.
Where does one even start when it comes to grievances about their development?
They went from a renegade black op doing what it was created to do to some kind of privately funded al quaeda that everybody and nobody knew about at the same time to a private army that just wanted to ruin everyone's day.
The original normandy was criticised for costing as much as a fleet or a carrier or something prohibitively expensive like that, and all of a sudden, the xenophobic 1% of the human race throw in enough money to build a technologically superior successor ship twice the size, crew it with a well trained, well paid crew with some fairly decent benefits including but not limited to the ability to relocate individual grunts' families on an interstellar basis on a moments notice, and to top it all off, a cybernetics program that brings back a patient so dead that if Frankenstein watched the movie "The Fifth Element" he still would say it was impossible!
All of this was almost made believable when EDI told me that A) the lazarus cell nearly bankrupted cerberus and
there were only around 150 Personnel in cerberus. It raised my eyebrows, seeing as at the time I had seen at least two space stations, my ship's worth of crew, the Illusive man and whereever he was' support staff, and then a few researchers and operatives involved in my assignments, but I assumed that for the most part, they were still that small time op that was working out of prefabricated colony buildings from 1 and I was just able to see the rest of the iceberg because I was now on the inside.Needless to say, this all went out the window in 3 when this black op, tiny splinter extremist group suddenly has a flotilla of advanced starships and fighters and an army whose fighting skill rivals that of the Alliance's marines, all armed with in-house developed, cutting edge weapons. Well, except for the mattock. I never got why centurions were wielding colonial-militia grade weapons while the grunts got hornets, but whatever. They should really patch the game to replace those mattock skins with harrier skins at least, but that's just my opinion. On top of this, they boast the ability to implant biotic abilities into non-potential subjects (See ME: Infiltrator) and pioneered lash technology and controlled indoctrination.
That's just silly. Undignified, even. And then to add insult to injury, Mass Effect 3 goes out of the way to kick the viewpoints of people like Miranda Lawson and Kelly Chambers clear out of the picture, just so they can seem undenyingly evil, when in reality, the only way an organization like this would be able to exist is if it were made of like-minded people. That really rustled my Jimmies. Until 3, I proudly stood by Cerberus, because the point correctly made so many times throughout 2 was "Something's up, and the most expedient way to put an end to these interstellar shenanigans is to go the back route and get results like Cerberus is so willing and able to do."
I still proudly subscribe to the school of thought that, like the most consequential choice of Mass Effect was whether to preserve the status quo and save the council or be an opportunist and install a human regime (even though it gets swept under the rug in 2; BIG MISTAKE BIOWARE, A HUMAN EMPIRE INSTATED BY SHEP WOULD'VE BEEN THE ULTIMATE RENEGADE ENDING TO BALANCE THE SAVING OF THE COUNCIL!) the choice at the end of 2 should've been if you'd stay with the council and alliance, and fight the reapers in 3 by the book as a specter, or if you'd stay with cerberus and do things without sanction and approval of the galactic community, but at the benefit of fewer rules and regulations to keep you from getting the absolute results you want. The former offering a conventional, united front victory, and the latter offering a more logistic, painstakingly assembled superbomb or achilles' heel type victory.
#15
Posté 17 août 2012 - 07:01
Obadiah
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Cerberus is a clandestine extra-national organization that does not allow members of each cell to know of the others. Consequently if one cell is playing friendly with everyone, since those members don't not know anything about what the other cells are doing, their impression of Cerberus would be based only on their own cell.
This is what happens to Shepard, Jacob, and many of the folks that help Cerberus. They are only aware of their one cell (or contact), until the other cells start behaving as terrorists. Unfortunately none of them was aware of the Illusive Man's true agenda.
This is what happens to Shepard, Jacob, and many of the folks that help Cerberus. They are only aware of their one cell (or contact), until the other cells start behaving as terrorists. Unfortunately none of them was aware of the Illusive Man's true agenda.
#16
Posté 17 août 2012 - 07:05
Obadiah
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That recording of the scientist realizing she is indotrinated when she attempts to test the control signal on the test subject at Sanctuary is cringe-worthy.killdozer9211 wrote...
...
Husks? Well, that's as close as they got to having something work out...
...
#17
Posté 17 août 2012 - 07:15
killdozer9211
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Obadiah wrote...
That recording of the scientist realizing she is indotrinated when she attempts to test the control signal on the test subject at Sanctuary is cringe-worthy.killdozer9211 wrote...
...
Husks? Well, that's as close as they got to having something work out...
...
Ironically, I've just arrived at that mission on my current playthrough, I'm really looking forward to getting to reevaluate Cerberus, as it's been a few months since my last playthrough, so I'll keep an eye out for that.
#18
Posté 17 août 2012 - 09:16
nos_astra
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Ignore them until they enter Council/Alliance space. Then let the Alliance/Council take care of them.dreman9999 wrote...
There a clear reason why in ME2.....It just that you don't have to like it. How else were you going to stop the collectors?
If you listen to EDI's cronos station log, you would know going awall with her shackled would had you vented into space.
It's just three Collector ships IIRC. Funny, how three cruisers can be that much of a threat. Yes, I know, I know, they harvest millions, billions of colonists ... in the Terminus systems. Not that it makes any sense to have so many colonists out there with no military to protect them only 30 years after humanity has begun a new era of colonization. Where do these colonists come from?
And there was that human Reaper baby ... but we never found out what that was about.
Modifié par klarabella, 17 août 2012 - 09:47 .
#20
Posté 17 août 2012 - 11:49
JamesFaith
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klarabella wrote...
[
It's just three Collector ships IIRC. Funny, how three cruisers can be that much of a threat. Yes, I know, I know, they harvest millions, billions of colonists ... in the Terminus systems. Not that it makes any sense to have so many colonists out there with no military to protect them only 30 years after humanity has begun a new era of colonization. Where do these colonists come from?
In fact this is quite logical. They came here from same reason why thousands of europian colonists leave their cities and villages and moved to wilderness of America. They were looking for freedom. And if you listen to that survivor guy on Horizon, they were even upset when Alliance wanted to protect them. Military protection was for them just another form of Alliance involment.
And were they came from? Well, Earth have 7 billions population now, in ME future it will be probably another one or two billions more, lot of people willing leave crowded regions of Earth and start somewhere else.
#21
Posté 17 août 2012 - 11:59
bboynexus
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If we consider Cerberus to be a reflection of the Illusive Man's ideals, then it only becomes straight-forwardly evil at the very end, after TIM installs Reaper components into his body and is subsequently indoctrinated. Despite popular opinion to the contrary, he is NOT indoctrinated at any time before that.
#22
Posté 17 août 2012 - 12:24
Govalon
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JamesFaith wrote...
klarabella wrote...
[
It's just three Collector ships IIRC. Funny, how three cruisers can be that much of a threat. Yes, I know, I know, they harvest millions, billions of colonists ... in the Terminus systems. Not that it makes any sense to have so many colonists out there with no military to protect them only 30 years after humanity has begun a new era of colonization. Where do these colonists come from?
In fact this is quite logical. They came here from same reason why thousands of europian colonists leave their cities and villages and moved to wilderness of America. They were looking for freedom. And if you listen to that survivor guy on Horizon, they were even upset when Alliance wanted to protect them. Military protection was for them just another form of Alliance involment.
And were they came from? Well, Earth have 7 billions population now, in ME future it will be probably another one or two billions more, lot of people willing leave crowded regions of Earth and start somewhere else.
This is still illogical because most of those 7 billion people we have now, are not white. In the future, earth will have even less white people because whyite people don't make babies. There prob won't be any white people in 150 years but in game, almost all the colonist and humans you see are white. Makes no sense.
It would make sense if you think about all the asian and black people (andersson, kasumi) in game and turn them in to white people in your mind and then turn all the previously white people (shepard, ashley, vega) in to black and asian. That is how the real demographic would be
Modifié par Govalon, 17 août 2012 - 12:27 .
#23
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
Posté 17 août 2012 - 12:27
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
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This is what happens when you don't plan your whole series ahead of time.
#24
Posté 17 août 2012 - 12:41
bboynexus
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Are you suggesting game developers plan their narratives rigidly?
Doesn't that, y'know, sort of betray the inherent malleability of game design?
Doesn't that, y'know, sort of betray the inherent malleability of game design?
#25
Posté 17 août 2012 - 01:00
dreman9999
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1. The collectors wer never going to Council space.klarabella wrote...
Ignore them until they enter Council/Alliance space. Then let the Alliance/Council take care of them.dreman9999 wrote...
There a clear reason why in ME2.....It just that you don't have to like it. How else were you going to stop the collectors?
If you listen to EDI's cronos station log, you would know going awall with her shackled would had you vented into space.
It's just three Collector ships IIRC. Funny, how three cruisers can be that much of a threat. Yes, I know, I know, they harvest millions, billions of colonists ... in the Terminus systems. Not that it makes any sense to have so many colonists out there with no military to protect them only 30 years after humanity has begun a new era of colonization. Where do these colonists come from?
And there was that human Reaper baby ... but we never found out what that was about.
2. It was shown that the alliance and council could not handle it and it was already effecting alliance space.
DId you ignore the line were it's stated that due tothe battle of the citadel they do not have enough ships?
And the fact of how expansive space is? You can't just put a military on every colony. Protecting colonies has been one of humanities biggests problems.
