238 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Govalon wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

klarabella wrote...

[
It's just three Collector ships IIRC. Funny, how three cruisers can be that much of a threat. Yes, I know, I know, they harvest millions, billions of colonists ... in the Terminus systems. Not that it makes any sense to have so many colonists out there with no military to protect them only 30 years after humanity has begun a new era of colonization. Where do these colonists come from?

In fact this is quite logical. They came here from same reason why thousands of europian colonists leave their cities and villages and  moved to wilderness of America. They were looking for freedom. And if you listen to that survivor guy on Horizon, they were even upset when Alliance wanted to protect them. Military protection was for them just another form of Alliance involment.

And were they came from? Well, Earth have 7 billions population now, in ME future it will be probably another one or two billions more, lot of people willing leave crowded regions of Earth and start somewhere else. 

This is still illogical because most of those 7 billion people we have now, are not white. In the future, earth will have even less white people because whyite people don't make babies. There prob won't be any white people in 150 years but in game, almost all the colonist and humans you see are white. Makes no sense.

It would make sense if you think about all the asian and black people (andersson, kasumi) in game and turn them in to white people in your mind and then turn all the previously white people (shepard, ashley, vega) in to black and asian. That is how the real demographic would be

That has to be the dumb thing I have ever read and completly off point.

[dreman9999]

killdozer9211 wrote...

 I've always felt cerberus got screwed in the story worst of all.

They went from being this machiavellian, CIA-like group of men willing to do evil things for their perception of "The Greater Good" to "The only sheriff in town" to C.O.B.R.A.

The only thing that's really stayed consistent with them is their Team Rocket-esque record of failing their every undertaking. Honestly, it's like watching one of those stock-footage compilations of all the crazy ways early 20th century humans tried to fly.

Threasher maws? Didn't work.
Rachni? Didn't work.
Thorian creepers? Even exo geni made it work for a while but cerberus sure couldn't.
Husks? Well, that's as close as they got to having something work out...
Shepard? Didn't work at all.

The only thing they ever did right was kill one admiral who was asking too many questions, and in the end, that didn't really end well for them.

Where does one even start when it comes to grievances about their development?
They went from a renegade black op doing what it was created to do to some kind of privately funded al quaeda that everybody and nobody knew about at the same time to a private army that just wanted to ruin everyone's day.

The original normandy was criticised for costing as much as a fleet or a carrier or something prohibitively expensive like that, and all of a sudden, the xenophobic 1% of the human race throw in enough money to build a technologically superior successor ship twice the size, crew it with a well trained, well paid crew with some fairly decent benefits including but not limited to the ability to relocate individual grunts' families on an interstellar basis on a moments notice, and to top it all off, a cybernetics program that brings back a patient so dead that if Frankenstein watched the movie "The Fifth Element" he still would say it was impossible!

All of this was almost made believable when EDI told me that A) the lazarus cell nearly bankrupted cerberus and there were only around 150 Personnel in cerberus. It raised my eyebrows, seeing as at the time I had seen at least two space stations, my ship's worth of crew, the Illusive man and whereever he was' support staff, and then a few researchers and operatives involved in my assignments, but I assumed that for the most part, they were still that small time op that was working out of prefabricated colony buildings from 1 and I was just able to see the rest of the iceberg because I was now on the inside.

Needless to say, this all went out the window in 3 when this black op, tiny splinter extremist group suddenly has a flotilla of advanced starships and fighters and an army whose fighting skill rivals that of the Alliance's marines, all armed with in-house developed, cutting edge weapons. Well, except for the mattock. I never got why centurions were wielding colonial-militia grade weapons while the grunts got hornets, but whatever. They should really patch the game to replace those mattock skins with harrier skins at least, but that's just my opinion. On top of this, they boast the ability to implant biotic abilities into non-potential subjects (See ME: Infiltrator) and pioneered lash technology and controlled indoctrination.

That's just silly. Undignified, even. And then to add insult to injury, Mass Effect 3 goes out of the way to kick the viewpoints of people like Miranda Lawson and Kelly Chambers clear out of the picture, just so they can seem undenyingly evil, when in reality, the only way an organization like this would be able to exist is if it were made of like-minded people. That really rustled my Jimmies. Until 3, I proudly stood by Cerberus, because the point correctly made so many times throughout 2 was "Something's up, and the most expedient way to put an end to these interstellar shenanigans is to go the back route and get results like Cerberus is so willing and able to do."

I still proudly subscribe to the school of thought that, like the most consequential choice of Mass Effect was whether to preserve the status quo and save the council or be an opportunist and install a human regime (even though it gets swept under the rug in 2; BIG MISTAKE BIOWARE, A HUMAN EMPIRE INSTATED BY SHEP WOULD'VE BEEN THE ULTIMATE RENEGADE ENDING TO BALANCE THE SAVING OF THE COUNCIL!) the choice at the end of 2 should've been if you'd stay with the council and alliance, and fight the reapers in 3 by the book as a specter, or if you'd stay with cerberus and do things without sanction and approval of the galactic community, but at the benefit of fewer rules and regulations to keep you from getting the absolute results you want. The former offering a conventional, united front victory, and the latter offering a more logistic, painstakingly assembled superbomb or achilles' heel type victory.

Here the thing you not getting....."
CIA-like group of men willing to do evil things for their perception of "The Greater Good"  ....
That the problem of cerberus. They are willing to do the extreme to get to their goal. That why they are seen as evil. That is also no different now. They just see that control the reaper are now an extreme to get to there goal.

[N7Gold]

Even though they formed an alliance with you in ME2 doesn't mean they actually viewed you as an ally. Hell, you can't even do any in depth research on them even though Illusive Man expects you to work with them. Besides, being gray doesn't always mean benevolence, sometimes a selfish person hides their true self behind a gray mask. It's easy to identify a renegade trying to act paragon or vice versa, but if he/she maintains a perfect balance between the two, it's hard to identify his/her true nature. Illusive Man only said that he wants to save humanity "at any cost" to persuade you into giving him the Collector Base so that he can control them. He believes in controlling them and only controlling them. If we knew that beforehand, I doubt anyone would give the base to him anyway. How do you justify him smiling like a "mustache twirling" villain if you give him the Collector Base?

It's easy to forget that the reason why Cerberus's army expanded tenfold is because most of its soldiers are indoctrinated civilians thanks to the technology from the Collector Base, forced to work for Cerberus agaisnt their will, like Jack (Subject Zero) if you didn't do the Grissom Academy mission, you have to fight her as a Phantom in Cerberus's main HQ. Saying that Illusive Man is "evil" in ME3 is a pathetically weak excuse to describe his "change" of character in ME3. Keep in mind that in ME2, Illusive Man kept concealed details about himself and his organization that he doesn't want Shepard to know about, whether you realize it or not. ME3 shows that Illusive Man has gone off the deep end with his Machievellian ideals, he has completely lost touch with his humanity; completely devoid of compassion, empathy and altruism, he sold his humanity to the Reapers for their power, believing it was necessary for control when in actuality he made the biggest mistake in his life. He claims to be protecting humanity, but he has forgotten what it means to be human. Its important to have some moral discipline whether your methods are gray or not.

Modifié par N7Gold, 17 août 2012 - 01:31 .

[DecCylonus]

If you really pay attention, especially in ME2, there is nothing inconsistent about Cerberus. In ME, they are a shadowy organization. We never learn very much about them. There are no hints of how big they might be or what resources they have. We just get a little taste of their methods and goals. To the poster who complained that they fail at everything: they had Shepard opposing their every move. They were developing and testing the Rachni and Thorian Creepers. Shepard attacked and destroyed those cells before they finished their work. You can't blame the villain for failing when the hero is on to them and actively opposing them.

ME2 is the big Cerberus reveal. The biggest hint to how powerful and well funded they are is the Normandy SR-2. We learned in ME how expensive the original Normady was, and Cerberus built a bigger and better one. If you want to hate Bioware for making them big and well funded then you have to hate ME2, and it's a fallacy to say they suddenly got big and rich in ME3. Moving on, if you pay attention to Shepard's dialogue when anyone asks him about Cerberus, it's clear Shepard doesn't trust them. Paragon Shepard's line is basically "I'm not with Cerberus, I don't agree with them." Renegade Shepard's line is "I'm working with them because nobody else will help, but I don't trust them." Shepard says this many times to many people throughout the game. (I know, because I'm replaying it right now.) Meanwhile, all of Shepard's old friends warn him Cerberus isn't trustworthy - Anderson, the VS, Liara - everyone. Whatever failings the writers may have had, they did not fail to set up Cerberus as a two faced villain. No non-Cerberus character trusted them in ME2.

Also, the Cerberus crew was set up in ME2 to be a series of carefully designed plants to earn Shepard's trust and make him/her feel comfortable working with them. Jacob is one of the most straight laced characters in the entire series. He joined Cerberus out of frustration with Alliance red tape, and it's clear in conversations that he isn't entirely comfortable with that decision. He expresses disdain for the more amoral things that Cerberus has done, and advocates for the more paragon solutions to problems if you take him on missions. Miranda is a grayer character and has bought into the Cerberus ideology more, but still has lines she won't cross. She doesn't hesitate to tell TIM to go to hell when he orders her to stop Shepard from destroying the Collector base. Both Miranda and Jacob fit the story of Cerberus surrounding Shepard with people he would feel comfortable with. Jacob is there for paragons, and Miranda for renegades. Both are competent, focused on the mission, and have certain morals and values they won't compromise. It's also fitting with Cerberus's cell structure that they were paired together before Shepard was revived, and kept ignorant of projects like Overlord, which neither of them would condone. It's even set up that TIM is a good judge of character and knows how to keep peoples' loyalty, through the stories of the loyalty missions.

Finally we get to ME3 where Cerberus's true intentions and scope are revealed. Why didn't EDI know all this before? Because she was part of a cell, just like everyone else. It wouldn't do for any cell member, including an AI, to know the scope of Cerberus's full operations. Everything we know about TIM says he is too careful to trust anyone but himself with that information. It was already well established in ME2 that Cerberus has vast resources. They had the money, technology, and manpower to design and build the SR-2. If they can do that, they can raise an army and field a few cruisers. We found out in Overlord that Cerberus was up to their old tricks, so they clearly had not become the kinder, gentler rogue black ops team they tried to portray for Shepard. It should not have been a surprise that they were pursuing human hegemony at any cost in ME3. The rest is explained in the Horizon and TIM's base missions. Pay attention to the dialogue and video logs and it's pretty clear what they have been up to.TIM's bid to control the Reapers is perfectly consistent with his own goals and the effects of indoctrination. He always sought the power to institute human hegemony. He tries to acquire that power through technology and gaining control of things. Trying to control the Reapers was a logical move for him once he had some examples of their technology to study. As we saw with Saren and other indoctrination victims, it works by corrupting your own thoughts and goals. Victims think they are in control almost until the end. There is room for argument about when TIM was indoctrinated, but when doesn't actually matter. He would have pursued his own goals with or without it, and at some point the Reapers found out about his plans and found them useful to their own. He is clearly indoctrinated at the final confrontation on the Citadel, and that is its major impact on the story.

Anyway, this is my opinion on Cerberus throughout the series.

Modifié par DecCylonus, 17 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[WorldOverlord]

bboynexus wrote...

Are you suggesting game developers plan their narratives rigidly?

Doesn't that, y'know, sort of betray the inherent malleability of game design?

There's a difference between planning a series ahead of time, and penning the entire story in one sitting. BW should have planned the basic series story arc (how the Reapers will be fought and defeated) during the development of ME1, anything else could have been made up "on the fly". It seems that BW did think of something beforehand *coughcoughDarkEnergycoughcough* but the fact that it was abandoned in favor of the Crucible and the Catalyst shows just how little thought they put into basic story structure.

[DecCylonus]

WorldOverlord wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Are you suggesting game developers plan their narratives rigidly?

Doesn't that, y'know, sort of betray the inherent malleability of game design?

There's a difference between planning a series ahead of time, and penning the entire story in one sitting. BW should have planned the basic series story arc (how the Reapers will be fought and defeated) during the development of ME1, anything else could have been made up "on the fly". It seems that BW did think of something beforehand *coughcoughDarkEnergycoughcough* but the fact that it was abandoned in favor of the Crucible and the Catalyst shows just how little thought they put into basic story structure.

Did you read the summary Bioware gave of the original Dark Energy plot? The choices in that ending would have made just as many people mad, because there was no happy ending there either. Personally I prefer the ending we got.

[dreman9999]

DecCylonus wrote...

WorldOverlord wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Are you suggesting game developers plan their narratives rigidly?

Doesn't that, y'know, sort of betray the inherent malleability of game design?

There's a difference between planning a series ahead of time, and penning the entire story in one sitting. BW should have planned the basic series story arc (how the Reapers will be fought and defeated) during the development of ME1, anything else could have been made up "on the fly". It seems that BW did think of something beforehand *coughcoughDarkEnergycoughcough* but the fact that it was abandoned in favor of the Crucible and the Catalyst shows just how little thought they put into basic story structure.

Did you read the summary Bioware gave of the original Dark Energy plot? The choices in that ending would have made just as many people mad, because there was no happy ending there either. Personally I prefer the ending we got.

What was the dark energy ending?

[Anacronian Stryx]

Normandy SR 2.
At least four cruisers - three of them are purposely built to suit Cerberus needs (comics)
Untold number of Fighters/interceptors/shuttles.
Minuteman station.
Cronos station.
Lazarus station.
New beyond Omega 4 relay base(comics)
Project Overlord installations.
Derelict reaper installation.
Eden prime installation(apparently large enough and have resources enough to subdue the entire population of the planet)
Untold number of troopers(explained in ME3) but also enough equipment to field these troopers.

These are just from the top of my head, Have i missed some thing?

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Normandy SR 2.
At least four cruisers - three of them are purposely built to suit Cerberus needs (comics)
Untold number of Fighters/interceptors/shuttles.
Minuteman station.
Cronos station.
Lazarus station.
New beyond Omega 4 relay base(comics)
Project Overlord installations.
Derelict reaper installation.
Eden prime installation(apparently large enough and have resources enough to subdue the entire population of the planet)
Untold number of troopers(explained in ME3) but also enough equipment to field these troopers.

These are just from the top of my head, Have i missed some thing?

He controls omega as well...For now.

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Normandy SR 2.
At least four cruisers - three of them are purposely built to suit Cerberus needs (comics)
Untold number of Fighters/interceptors/shuttles.
Minuteman station.
Cronos station.
Lazarus station.
New beyond Omega 4 relay base(comics)
Project Overlord installations.
Derelict reaper installation.
Eden prime installation(apparently large enough and have resources enough to subdue the entire population of the planet)
Untold number of troopers(explained in ME3) but also enough equipment to field these troopers.

These are just from the top of my head, Have i missed some thing?

He controls omega as well...For now.

True but i didn't add Omega because it wasn't built by Cerberus.

EDIT i forgot the sanctuary installation on Horizon.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 17 août 2012 - 02:23 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Normandy SR 2.
At least four cruisers - three of them are purposely built to suit Cerberus needs (comics)
Untold number of Fighters/interceptors/shuttles.
Minuteman station.
Cronos station.
Lazarus station.
New beyond Omega 4 relay base(comics)
Project Overlord installations.
Derelict reaper installation.
Eden prime installation(apparently large enough and have resources enough to subdue the entire population of the planet)
Untold number of troopers(explained in ME3) but also enough equipment to field these troopers.

These are just from the top of my head, Have i missed some thing?

A fleet that in a straight up fight with Alliance fifth fleet puts a decent dent into it.
Fighter base on Noveria.
Research station on Horizon.

[dreman9999]

Arcian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was the dark energy ending?

Humans are, for some unexplained reason, the key to stopping dark energy from ripping apart the universe. You could either sacrifice and reaperify all of mankind to save the universe or destroy the reapers and leave the dark energy problem unsolved.

Wow...If bsn was lit of fire with the endings now. It would be ashes now with the first ending.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was the dark energy ending?

Humans are, for some unexplained reason, the key to stopping dark energy from ripping apart the universe. You could either sacrifice and reaperify all of mankind to save the universe or destroy the reapers and leave the dark energy problem unsolved.

Wow...If bsn was lit of fire with the endings now. It would be ashes now with the first ending.

Everybody (except you, apparently) knows about this ending. A lot of people think it still better than what we got.
Yes it's silly, but then it is only an outline and at the very least doesn't have the RGB ending's insane troll logic.

[Star fury]

The Angry One wrote...

Everybody (except you, apparently) knows about this ending. A lot of people think it still better than what we got.
Yes it's silly, but then it is only an outline and at the very least doesn't have the RGB ending's insane troll logic.

And it has moral dilemma - ends justify the means... Or not. As much as I don't rate Mr. Karpyshin's writing, it's still better than current disaster. 

On topic.

Cerberus actually made 360 degree turn.

ME1 - terrorist organisation, kidnapping torturing and assassination of Alliance admiral(everybody in galaxy knows about it), using rachni, thresher maws etc. Absolute bad guys. Small group.

ME2 - suddenly TIM & co are the only group that care about Reaper threat and human colonies. TIM even didn't know about Subject Zero experiment or he would've stopped it. That line almost made me cry. Almost. Not good guys but mostly grey. Miranda, Jacob and Kelly are actually nice. Again small group and reviving Shepard with building second Normandy consumed most of their resourses.

ME3 - again bad guys and main antagonist, Shepard fights mostly with them and not with Reapers. Created huge army that fought with Turians, Krogans, Alliance and even Reapers(sic!). Built a fleet, even cruisers! More or less succesful research of indoctrination. Retcon...

Modifié par Star fury, 17 août 2012 - 03:22 .

[Hackulator]

Cerberus was never anything but evil, and if you think differently it just means TIM successfully conned you in ME2.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was the dark energy ending?

Humans are, for some unexplained reason, the key to stopping dark energy from ripping apart the universe. You could either sacrifice and reaperify all of mankind to save the universe or destroy the reapers and leave the dark energy problem unsolved.

Wow...If bsn was lit of fire with the endings now. It would be ashes now with the first ending.

Everybody (except you, apparently) knows about this ending. A lot of people think it still better than what we got.
Yes it's silly, but then it is only an outline and at the very least doesn't have the RGB ending's insane troll logic.

Please. Evrything in the end of ME3 is outside the control ofthe catalyst . Ithas no control over what the crucible does out side of synthesis.
The orignal end has the same concept as the current ones. The only differance is that it leave problem open with no solution in one of the orgianal endings.

[Wulfram]

ME2 was a bad waste of time from the perspective of the overall story of the series.

[dreman9999]

Star fury wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Everybody (except you, apparently) knows about this ending. A lot of people think it still better than what we got.
Yes it's silly, but then it is only an outline and at the very least doesn't have the RGB ending's insane troll logic.

And it has moral dilemma - ends justify the means... Or not. As much as I don't rate Mr. Karpyshin's writing, it's still better than current disaster. 

On topic.

Cerberus actually made 360 degree turn.

ME1 - terrorist organisation, kidnapping torturing and assassination of Alliance admiral(everybody in galaxy knows about it), using rachni, thresher maws etc. Absolute bad guys. Small group.

ME2 - suddenly TIM & co are the only group that care about Reaper threat and human colonies. TIM even didn't know about Subject Zero experiment or he would've stopped it. That line almost made me cry. Almost. Not good guys but mostly grey. Miranda, Jacob and Kelly are actually nice. Again small group and reviving Shepard with building second Normandy consumed most of their resourses.

ME3 - again bad guys and main antagonist, Shepard fights mostly with them and not with Reapers. Created huge army that fought with Turians, Krogans, Alliance and even Reapers(sic!). Built a fleet, even cruisers! More or less succesful research of indoctrination. Retcon...

1. The old endings and the new ends have the same end justifiesthe means concept. It just the old ending dooms everyone no matter what.
2."
ME2 - suddenly TIM & co are the only group that care about Reaper threat and human colonies."

You beleived TIM? Cerberus did not do a 360, You just drank the cerberus koolaid. Cerberus is an organization that believe in doinf the extremes to  uplifting humanity. They always were like that in ME1, the same in ME2, and no different in ME3. In ME3 they just beleive that the reapers can be controled and want to use them to up lift humaity. That is no differnt then what they were trying to do before.

If you think cerberus did a 360, ask yourself this, have you ever trust TIM and cerberus?

[dreman9999]

Wulfram wrote...

ME2 was a bad waste of time from the perspective of the overall story of the series.

So going after the slaves of the reapers that are making a reaper to get info on how to take down the reapers and any tech thatcan help them fight the reapers is a bad Idea?

[BatmanPWNS]

Characters with grey morality are two mainstream for bioware.

[N7Infernox]

dreman9999 wrote...

Firesaber82 wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

The way I have chosen to make sense of the dichotomy between super-evil Cerberus and well-intentioned extremist Cerberus is that it was always super-evil. Keep in mind, that while I have some circumstantial evidence that supports my theory, I don't think of it as anything more than headcanon.

We know that TIM organized Cerberus into independent cells with no connection to each other. We also know that he specifically set up the Normandy SR-2 and the crew as a method to make Shepard more "comfortable" working with him. The Illusive Man created the "illusion" that Cerberus was really just a well-intentioned group with extreme methods for Shepard. He never cared about the human colonists, except inasmuch as he needed to to keep Shepard working for him. He wanted the Collector technology for himself so that he could move forward with his other plans, which is why he gets so angry and even orders Miranda to stop Shepard when he/she decides to destroy the base.

Having just replayed ME2, and after knowing what we know from 3, I pretty much completely agree with this explination.  If you really pay attention in 2, after knowing what TIM wanted in 3, it's pretty obvious he's playing you.

Yep....From now on, If any person ask why cerberus is suddenly evil in ME3, ask them if they ever truely trusted Cerberus and TIM in the first place.

ALL this. Seriously; back when ME2 was fresh, most of the MEfans from day-1 knew of Cerberus's deceptive nature like it was the back of their hand, while newbies like me took some time to realize it. Now it seems that everyone is just looking for a reason to bash Bioware for their game.

Cerberus was never good people. Recognize it.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
Please. Evrything in the end of ME3 is outside the control ofthe catalyst . Ithas no control over what the crucible does out side of synthesis.

I've told you before not to argue your headcanon as fact.

The orignal end has the same concept as the current ones. The only differance is that it leave problem open with no solution in one of the orgianal endings.

It leaves the decision up to the player, not to the Reapers. It gives the hope that a solution will be found on our terms.
Like I said, it's still silly. We needed no mysterious Reaper motive. But it's still better than this. Yes, a plot outline is better than this garbage.

[Quackjack]

killdozer9211 wrote...

 I've always felt cerberus got screwed in the story worst of all.

They went from being this machiavellian, CIA-like group of men willing to do evil things for their perception of "The Greater Good" to "The only sheriff in town" to C.O.B.R.A.

The only thing that's really stayed consistent with them is their Team Rocket-esque record of failing their every undertaking. Honestly, it's like watching one of those stock-footage compilations of all the crazy ways early 20th century humans tried to fly.

Threasher maws? Didn't work.
Rachni? Didn't work.
Thorian creepers? Even exo geni made it work for a while but cerberus sure couldn't.
Husks? Well, that's as close as they got to having something work out...
Shepard? Didn't work at all.

The only thing they ever did right was kill one admiral who was asking too many questions, and in the end, that didn't really end well for them.

Where does one even start when it comes to grievances about their development?
They went from a renegade black op doing what it was created to do to some kind of privately funded al quaeda that everybody and nobody knew about at the same time to a private army that just wanted to ruin everyone's day.

The original normandy was criticised for costing as much as a fleet or a carrier or something prohibitively expensive like that, and all of a sudden, the xenophobic 1% of the human race throw in enough money to build a technologically superior successor ship twice the size, crew it with a well trained, well paid crew with some fairly decent benefits including but not limited to the ability to relocate individual grunts' families on an interstellar basis on a moments notice, and to top it all off, a cybernetics program that brings back a patient so dead that if Frankenstein watched the movie "The Fifth Element" he still would say it was impossible!

All of this was almost made believable when EDI told me that A) the lazarus cell nearly bankrupted cerberus and there were only around 150 Personnel in cerberus. It raised my eyebrows, seeing as at the time I had seen at least two space stations, my ship's worth of crew, the Illusive man and whereever he was' support staff, and then a few researchers and operatives involved in my assignments, but I assumed that for the most part, they were still that small time op that was working out of prefabricated colony buildings from 1 and I was just able to see the rest of the iceberg because I was now on the inside.

Needless to say, this all went out the window in 3 when this black op, tiny splinter extremist group suddenly has a flotilla of advanced starships and fighters and an army whose fighting skill rivals that of the Alliance's marines, all armed with in-house developed, cutting edge weapons. Well, except for the mattock. I never got why centurions were wielding colonial-militia grade weapons while the grunts got hornets, but whatever. They should really patch the game to replace those mattock skins with harrier skins at least, but that's just my opinion. On top of this, they boast the ability to implant biotic abilities into non-potential subjects (See ME: Infiltrator) and pioneered lash technology and controlled indoctrination.

That's just silly. Undignified, even. And then to add insult to injury, Mass Effect 3 goes out of the way to kick the viewpoints of people like Miranda Lawson and Kelly Chambers clear out of the picture, just so they can seem undenyingly evil, when in reality, the only way an organization like this would be able to exist is if it were made of like-minded people. That really rustled my Jimmies. Until 3, I proudly stood by Cerberus, because the point correctly made so many times throughout 2 was "Something's up, and the most expedient way to put an end to these interstellar shenanigans is to go the back route and get results like Cerberus is so willing and able to do."

I still proudly subscribe to the school of thought that, like the most consequential choice of Mass Effect was whether to preserve the status quo and save the council or be an opportunist and install a human regime (even though it gets swept under the rug in 2; BIG MISTAKE BIOWARE, A HUMAN EMPIRE INSTATED BY SHEP WOULD'VE BEEN THE ULTIMATE RENEGADE ENDING TO BALANCE THE SAVING OF THE COUNCIL!) the choice at the end of 2 should've been if you'd stay with the council and alliance, and fight the reapers in 3 by the book as a specter, or if you'd stay with cerberus and do things without sanction and approval of the galactic community, but at the benefit of fewer rules and regulations to keep you from getting the absolute results you want. The former offering a conventional, united front victory, and the latter offering a more logistic, painstakingly assembled superbomb or achilles' heel type victory.