238 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Star fury wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

Star fury wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

In the 1930's, Japan managed to build the Yamato class dreadnoughts - the largest battleships ever built - in complete secrecy.

Yamato example is completely irrelevant. Japan managed to hide these enormous battleships from other countries, mainly from the USA.

Cerberus is a part of Alliance, it's a one country. Cerberus has only ONE shipbuilding company - Cord-Hislop Aerospace as a front corporation. If you want to operate with real-life examples, then Cord-Hislop Aerospace building cruisers for Cerberus is like US corporation building cruisers for Al-Qaeda.

Wrong. Japan hid them from everyone: USA, Britain Germany, etc. The example isn't about countries. It's about the fact that you can hide ship construction by calling it something else in the official records and concealing the construction dock. No paper trail, no visible ship under construction, no suspicion.

Cerberus is not part of the Alliance. It's a terrorist organization that happens to exist within the space claimed by the Alliance. Space, by the way, is huge. Cerberus has successfully hidden space stations that the Alliance couldn't find until ME3. A shipyard is just another space station.

Definition of a front: a legitimate business run by a criminal organization to help conceal illegal activities. It would be stupid to build military vessels at the main Cord-Hislop shipyards in full view of the Alliance, but they don't have to. The fact that Cerberus owns a shipyard means they posess the knowledge to build a ship anywhere they can transport materials and manpower to. Acquiring that knowledge is the hardest part. Once they have it, they can build their own shipyard in an out-of-the-way spot and recruit a workforce that isn't sympathetic to the Alliance. Materials could be funneled through Cord-Hislop and other front companies with falsified records to conceal their true purpose. Problem solved.

Okay, tell me - can Al-Qaeda order cruisers from US company? Can IRA order cruisers from British company? Yes- No. 

The fact that your missing the scope of earth and space ammuses me. Let me give you a hint. In the matters of space, nothing close of the matter of half the info in it is even gathered by the alliance or the council.

You miss the point if you compare it to the scoop of earth. Info on earth can be easilly controled and found because it's finite. Info in spaceis not because it's near infiante. No where near everything is even brought to the attion of the council let allown the alliance. That's why cerberus can stay so hidden for years.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 août 2012 - 07:32 .

[DeathScepter]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

You mean like how Binary Helix, Guanghui Solutions, and Sonax Industries did when they invaded gavrog, a terminus system planet controled by the krogan, and took the damn thing over with their own army and fleet?

Which would never be able to challenge an Alliance fleet.
I am sick and tired of you strawmanning my point so I will capitalise this for emphasis.

I AM TALKING ABOUT SCALE. NUMBERS.

xsdob wrote...

More over, they had a fleet capable of
defeating hegemony forces during the anhur rebellion. Ponder that, a
mercenary force was able to defeat the batarians fleet in combat..

Oh my goodness! They were able to defeat Space North Korea!
This proves what exactly?

Let me ask again, if Cerberus already had the ships, why didn't they use them in ME2?

Because ME2 was never about stopping the Collectors, from TIM's point of view. It was a long con designed to get Shepard to become a part of Cerberus and work with Cerberus to stop (or rather, control) the Reapers. 

If the Collectors were stopped, so much the better, but that wasn't the goal.

IT was Cerberus's goal to stop the Collectors and the side benfiet was Reaper Technology. Cerberus is alway about getting better technology regardless of source.

[dreman9999]

DeathScepter wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

You mean like how Binary Helix, Guanghui Solutions, and Sonax Industries did when they invaded gavrog, a terminus system planet controled by the krogan, and took the damn thing over with their own army and fleet?

Which would never be able to challenge an Alliance fleet.
I am sick and tired of you strawmanning my point so I will capitalise this for emphasis.

I AM TALKING ABOUT SCALE. NUMBERS.

xsdob wrote...

More over, they had a fleet capable of
defeating hegemony forces during the anhur rebellion. Ponder that, a
mercenary force was able to defeat the batarians fleet in combat..

Oh my goodness! They were able to defeat Space North Korea!
This proves what exactly?

Let me ask again, if Cerberus already had the ships, why didn't they use them in ME2?

Because ME2 was never about stopping the Collectors, from TIM's point of view. It was a long con designed to get Shepard to become a part of Cerberus and work with Cerberus to stop (or rather, control) the Reapers. 

If the Collectors were stopped, so much the better, but that wasn't the goal.

IT was Cerberus's goal to stop the Collectors and the side benfiet was Reaper Technology. Cerberus is alway about getting better technology regardless of source.

No, it was always about the tech, saving the coloney was the side benifite. Stop the collectors would happen on way or another. The entire reasn why TIMdid thi is because he belived the collectors were workin gfor the reapers.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. You missing the point that ammout is the issue. If they got allot of people to join cerberus then the goal was met. It did not matter the skill , that was soon fixed anyway.

Protecting colonies would gain even more recruits and propaganda, they wouldn't even need indoctrination initially.

2.Your taking about a ship with tech that can track the normady...That would not work. The would sense the ship way before they are attacked

Nothing can track at FTL. Not even Reapers.
The Collectors found the SR1 because they knew they were going to be there.

3. Any ammout of ships can put up a fight. We can only guagethere strreght by how long they last.....And it was not long.

Against the entire Fifth Fleet? It was long enough to be a significant number of ships.

[DeathScepter]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

You mean like how Binary Helix, Guanghui Solutions, and Sonax Industries did when they invaded gavrog, a terminus system planet controled by the krogan, and took the damn thing over with their own army and fleet?

Which would never be able to challenge an Alliance fleet.
I am sick and tired of you strawmanning my point so I will capitalise this for emphasis.

I AM TALKING ABOUT SCALE. NUMBERS.

xsdob wrote...

More over, they had a fleet capable of
defeating hegemony forces during the anhur rebellion. Ponder that, a
mercenary force was able to defeat the batarians fleet in combat..

Oh my goodness! They were able to defeat Space North Korea!
This proves what exactly?

Let me ask again, if Cerberus already had the ships, why didn't they use them in ME2?

Because ME2 was never about stopping the Collectors, from TIM's point of view. It was a long con designed to get Shepard to become a part of Cerberus and work with Cerberus to stop (or rather, control) the Reapers. 

If the Collectors were stopped, so much the better, but that wasn't the goal.

IT was Cerberus's goal to stop the Collectors and the side benfiet was Reaper Technology. Cerberus is alway about getting better technology regardless of source.

No, it was always about the tech, saving the coloney was the side benifite. Stop the collectors would happen on way or another. The entire reasn why TIMdid thi is because he belived the collectors were workin gfor the reapers.

True about Cerberus's love for Technology. 

[The Angry One]

Right, but using their fleet to stop the Collectors and secure the base works even better than using Shepard. Everything I've said is from the perspective of Cerberus promoting a selfish agenda, everything would benefit them in the end.
They have no reason to not use their fleet, the only reason they don't use it is because they don't have it.

[DeathScepter]

The Angry One wrote...

Right, but using their fleet to stop the Collectors and secure the base works even better than using Shepard. Everything I've said is from the perspective of Cerberus promoting a selfish agenda, everything would benefit them in the end.
They have no reason to not use their fleet, the only reason they don't use it is because they don't have it.

that is true and One of the books, several of their bases were heavily damaged by the Turians.


So BAD writing for the Win.

[F4H bandicoot]

The Angry One wrote...

2.Your taking about a ship with tech that can track the normady...That would not work. The would sense the ship way before they are attacked

Nothing can track at FTL. Not even Reapers.
The Collectors found the SR1 because they knew they were going to be there.

Source?? 
If this is true it's interesting.
I always assumed they could "see" past the normandy's stealth tech with their better Reaper ****.
Although this renders parts of 3 even more retarded than I previously thought thinking about it.

Modifié par F4H bandicoot, 17 août 2012 - 07:17 .

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. You missing the point that ammout is the issue. If they got allot of people to join cerberus then the goal was met. It did not matter the skill , that was soon fixed anyway.

Protecting colonies would gain even more recruits and propaganda, they wouldn't even need indoctrination initially.

2.Your taking about a ship with tech that can track the normady...That would not work. The would sense the ship way before they are attacked

Nothing can track at FTL. Not even Reapers.
The Collectors found the SR1 because they knew they were going to be there.

3. Any ammout of ships can put up a fight. We can only guagethere strreght by how long they last.....And it was not long.

Against the entire Fifth Fleet? It was long enough to be a significant number of ships.

1.Yes, they would need the indoctriantion. Added cerberus does not want to waste the resourse on that.
2.IIf that was true then the collector would not of destoryed the normady. Even the sr-1 can be tracked via ftl. After that, if the ship goes stealth it can't be found.  When the normady was attack it was in stealth. That mean the reapers can find the normady if it's using it's old tech.
3.But it was still quick wit little lose to the 5th fleet. The cerberus fleet never was an equal to the alliance.

[Ledgend1221]

You can't track something thats FTL.
Not even space magic can do it.

[Conniving_Eagle]

F4H bandicoot wrote...
Source?? 

Physics. Objects in FTL don't have any mass.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 17 août 2012 - 07:18 .

[DecCylonus]

The Angry One wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

Cerberus doesn't have that many ships.

They have enough to fight the entire Fifth Fleet and not immediately be crushed.

Besides, it's a bad idea. Without upgrades, the SR2 does poorly against the Collector ship. They only pull it out because they have Shepard in command and Joker to pilot. Other ships would likely lose. Remember, the Collectors took out a Turian cruiser with minimal damage to their ship.

Hence, 2 cruisers. Why should TIM care if he loses one? He gets a Collector ship in exchange.

Shepard is a hideously incompetent ship commander, and Joker's piloting has nothing to do with firepower, which Thanix cannon or no manages to take down the Collector ship decisively.

They didn't know they needed a Reaper IFF until Shepard had already completed most of his mission.

Which is why they were already salvaging it from the derelict Reaper.

Even then, they only had one. They sent their best ship and crew because that gave the best chance of success at stopping the Collectors. Waiting to produce more would give the Collectors more time, and TIM was hot to get his hands on Reaper tech. His plan was to have Shepard and the SR2 acquire the base. The science team was plan B after Shepard quit.

They have copies of the Reaper IFF installed on their science ships and ready to mere hours (at most) after Shepard blows it up.
Having a fleet come in and secure the base without Shepard would achieve the same results. Better results, because there's no risk of, say, Kai Leng disobeying TIM and blowing up the base.

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It was clearly alot.

And they could have more. Entire colonies grateful to Cerberus instead of handfuls of misanthropes and Alliance dropouts.

2. Your say sending a cruser to do the mission over a stealth ship is a bad idea? The collector can't be taken by force.

Because?

3. Agian where is it shown that the cerberus fleets equla the number of alliance fleets?
You missing the fact that cerberus can take the alliance on becuase the alliance is spread thin fighting the reapers.

I'm saying that Cerberus has a fleet that can at least challenge the Fifth Fleet. That's a lot of ships.
That's not even counting the ones they should have at Omega.

Enough ships to last ten minutes against a superior force doesn't constitute a large fleet. Read up on some real naval battles. It doesn't mean they have enough ships to station two at every colony. It certainly doesn't mean they have two cruisers for every colony.

The Collectors aren't going to surrender their ship. They have to be killed or they will keep fighting. Therefore, TIM doesn't really get a Collector ship for whatever his losses are. He gets a badly battered hulk that might yield some new technology when torn down. Ships aren't quick or easy to replace, so no commander wants to trade a greater number of his own units for one of the enemy's of equal strength.

Joker's piloting has everything to do with the Suicide Mission's success. The Collectors have Reaper tech, and their main gun is essentially a smaller version of Sovereign's. Joker's ability to dodge its fire saves the Normandy more than once. A less capable pilot, on a less maneuverable ship, IE a cruiser, is going to take hits and serious damage from that gun.

Having a fleet secure the base only produces the same result if that fleet succeeds. Shepard went in with the best ship, weapons, armor, and shields that the galaxy had to offer, bar none. Cerberus cruisers presumeably did not have Thannix Cannons, Asari Armor, or Tali's special shielding before those things were given to Shepard. They would have had to batter their way in and drop Cerberus Assault Troopers, and hope they could take out the Collectors without all of Shepard's resources, knowledge, and expertise. Maybe they could accomplish that after Shepard did all the other work, but not before.

[F4H bandicoot]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...
Source?? 

Physics. Objects in FTL don't have any mass.

The SR1 isn't in FTL when the Collector ship appears.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

You can't track something thats FTL.
Not even space magic can do it.

I wouldn't question the capabilities of space magic and art if I were you. You'll probably end up wrong.

[dreman9999]

DeathScepter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Right, but using their fleet to stop the Collectors and secure the base works even better than using Shepard. Everything I've said is from the perspective of Cerberus promoting a selfish agenda, everything would benefit them in the end.
They have no reason to not use their fleet, the only reason they don't use it is because they don't have it.

that is true and One of the books, several of their bases were heavily damaged by the Turians.


So BAD writing for the Win.

No the case at all. Ask your self this. TIM had many teams of soldiers under his command...Why did TIM  tell Shepardto get aliens to hepl on this mission in stead of using his own forces to help him?

[The Angry One]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Source?? 
If this is true it's interesting.
I always assumed they could "see" past the normandy's stealth tech with their better Reaper ****.
Although this renders parts of 3 even more retarded than I previously thought thinking about it.

Nah, I mean they knew the area the Normandy would jump to, and then detected them with super Reaper sensors or whatever.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Right, but using their fleet to stop the Collectors and secure the base works even better than using Shepard. Everything I've said is from the perspective of Cerberus promoting a selfish agenda, everything would benefit them in the end.
They have no reason to not use their fleet, the only reason they don't use it is because they don't have it.

that is true and One of the books, several of their bases were heavily damaged by the Turians.


So BAD writing for the Win.

No the case at all. Ask your self this. TIM had many teams of soldiers under his command...Why did TIM  tell Shepardto get aliens to hepl on this mission in stead of using his own forces to help him?

they tell you that answer in the Cerberus base mission

[Conniving_Eagle]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...
Source?? 

Physics. Objects in FTL don't have any mass.

The SR1 isn't in FTL when the Collector ship appears.

Which is when it was tracked. Wait... I shouldn't have snipped your post.

What was your question?

[F4H bandicoot]

The Angry One wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Source?? 
If this is true it's interesting.
I always assumed they could "see" past the normandy's stealth tech with their better Reaper ****.
Although this renders parts of 3 even more retarded than I previously thought thinking about it.

Nah, I mean they knew the area the Normandy would jump to, and then detected them with super Reaper sensors or whatever.

That makes more sense.
:happy:

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

You can't track something thats FTL.
Not even space magic can do it.

I wouldn't question the capabilities of space magic and art if I were you. You'll probably end up wrong.

The fact that the sr1 was not in ftl when it fell and in stealth mode must be some incredible magic.

[DeathScepter]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Right, but using their fleet to stop the Collectors and secure the base works even better than using Shepard. Everything I've said is from the perspective of Cerberus promoting a selfish agenda, everything would benefit them in the end.
They have no reason to not use their fleet, the only reason they don't use it is because they don't have it.

that is true and One of the books, several of their bases were heavily damaged by the Turians.


So BAD writing for the Win.

No the case at all. Ask your self this. TIM had many teams of soldiers under his command...Why did TIM  tell Shepardto get aliens to hepl on this mission in stead of using his own forces to help him?

It won't be the first time that Cerberus used Aliens to help them on their missions if they are suited for the job.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Source?? 
If this is true it's interesting.
I always assumed they could "see" past the normandy's stealth tech with their better Reaper ****.
Although this renders parts of 3 even more retarded than I previously thought thinking about it.

Nah, I mean they knew the area the Normandy would jump to, and then detected them with super Reaper sensors or whatever.

Even if they knew the area the normady is in, if it's in stealth mode nothing find it. The only wayt o find it is to have a way to find it in stealth mode.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 août 2012 - 07:23 .

[The Angry One]

DecCylonus wrote...

Enough ships to last ten minutes against a superior force doesn't constitute a large fleet. Read up on some real naval battles. It doesn't mean they have enough ships to station two at every colony. It certainly doesn't mean they have two cruisers for every colony.

Read up on Mass Effect battles. If there were so few ships, the Fifth Fleets dreadnoughts should easily dispatch them from long range and end the battle before it begins.

The Collectors aren't going to surrender their ship. They have to be killed or they will keep fighting. Therefore, TIM doesn't really get a Collector ship for whatever his losses are. He gets a badly battered hulk that might yield some new technology when torn down. Ships aren't quick or easy to replace, so no commander wants to trade a greater number of his own units for one of the enemy's of equal strength.

Does the ship have infinite Collectors? Will they all survive the ship being damaged? No. Your point is moot.

Joker's piloting has everything to do with the Suicide Mission's success. The Collectors have Reaper tech, and their main gun is essentially a smaller version of Sovereign's. Joker's ability to dodge its fire saves the Normandy more than once. A less capable pilot, on a less maneuverable ship, IE a cruiser, is going to take hits and serious damage from that gun.

And that cruiser is still going to have to turn, aim and fire. It's only going to be able to shoot down one ship at a time, and it's beam is nowhere near as powerful as Sovereign's. A cruiser would survive several hits, at which point 2 cruisers will bring it down because it's defences are  extremely poor.

Having a fleet secure the base only produces the same result if that fleet succeeds. Shepard went in with the best ship, weapons, armor, and shields that the galaxy had to offer, bar none. Cerberus cruisers presumeably did not have Thannix Cannons, Asari Armor, or Tali's special shielding before those things were given to Shepard.

Let's ignore the fact that the Normandy still succeeds in destroying the Collector ship and reaching the base with exactly zero upgrades, shall we?

They would have had to batter their way in and drop Cerberus Assault Troopers, and hope they could take out the Collectors without all of Shepard's resources, knowledge, and expertise. Maybe they could accomplish that after Shepard did all the other work, but not before.

Why not? Maybe they'd lose a couple of ships and a few troopers.
Why not have Kai Leng lead a team inside? This was back when he was marginally competent and before he had his brain replaced with cabbage was it not?

dreman9999 wrote...

Even if they knew the area the normady
is in, if it's in stealth mode nothing find it. The only wayt o find it
is to have a way to find it in stealth mode.

Which is... what I said. My point was that you can't detect ships coming in from long range, just like the SR1 didn't detect the Collectors. Because they were in FTL.

Modifié par The Angry One, 17 août 2012 - 07:25 .

[dreman9999]

DeathScepter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Right, but using their fleet to stop the Collectors and secure the base works even better than using Shepard. Everything I've said is from the perspective of Cerberus promoting a selfish agenda, everything would benefit them in the end.
They have no reason to not use their fleet, the only reason they don't use it is because they don't have it.

that is true and One of the books, several of their bases were heavily damaged by the Turians.


So BAD writing for the Win.

No the case at all. Ask your self this. TIM had many teams of soldiers under his command...Why did TIM  tell Shepardto get aliens to hepl on this mission in stead of using his own forces to help him?

It won't be the first time that Cerberus used Aliens to help them on their missions if they are suited for the job.

They only do that on the giues of someone else. The alien normally don't know they are working for cerberus.
That or cerberus is using great finacal pay to get them to work with them....No of the squad on the normady were being paid out side of Jacob, Miranda, and Zaeed.
So...
Why did TIM  tell Shepard to get aliens to help on this mission instead of using his own forces to help him? 

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

Enough ships to last ten minutes against a superior force doesn't constitute a large fleet. Read up on some real naval battles. It doesn't mean they have enough ships to station two at every colony. It certainly doesn't mean they have two cruisers for every colony.

Read up on Mass Effect battles. If there were so few ships, the Fifth Fleets dreadnoughts should easily dispatch them from long range and end the battle before it begins.

The Collectors aren't going to surrender their ship. They have to be killed or they will keep fighting. Therefore, TIM doesn't really get a Collector ship for whatever his losses are. He gets a badly battered hulk that might yield some new technology when torn down. Ships aren't quick or easy to replace, so no commander wants to trade a greater number of his own units for one of the enemy's of equal strength.

Does the ship have infinite Collectors? Will they all survive the ship being damaged? No. Your point is moot.

Joker's piloting has everything to do with the Suicide Mission's success. The Collectors have Reaper tech, and their main gun is essentially a smaller version of Sovereign's. Joker's ability to dodge its fire saves the Normandy more than once. A less capable pilot, on a less maneuverable ship, IE a cruiser, is going to take hits and serious damage from that gun.

And that cruiser is still going to have to turn, aim and fire. It's only going to be able to shoot down one ship at a time, and it's beam is nowhere near as powerful as Sovereign's. A cruiser would survive several hits, at which point 2 cruisers will bring it down because it's defences are  extremely poor.

Having a fleet secure the base only produces the same result if that fleet succeeds. Shepard went in with the best ship, weapons, armor, and shields that the galaxy had to offer, bar none. Cerberus cruisers presumeably did not have Thannix Cannons, Asari Armor, or Tali's special shielding before those things were given to Shepard.

Let's ignore the fact that the Normandy still succeeds in destroying the Collector ship and reaching the base with exactly zero upgrades, shall we?

They would have had to batter their way in and drop Cerberus Assault Troopers, and hope they could take out the Collectors without all of Shepard's resources, knowledge, and expertise. Maybe they could accomplish that after Shepard did all the other work, but not before.

Why not? Maybe they'd lose a couple of ships and a few troopers.
Why not have Kai Leng lead a team inside? This was back when he was marginally competent and before he had his brain replaced with cabbage was it not?

dreman9999 wrote...

Even if they knew the area the normady
is in, if it's in stealth mode nothing find it. The only wayt o find it
is to have a way to find it in stealth mode.

Which is... what I said. My point was that you can't detect ships coming in from long range, just like the SR1 didn't detect the Collectors. Because they were in FTL.

Yet, the collectors did....Note:"
The only way to  find it
is to have a way to find it in stealth mode."

The collected did find away and did find it when it was in stealth mode. That's my point.