288 réponses à ce sujet

[Ithurael]

Pitznik wrote...

If someone was aggressive, it wasn't you. Still, I can't really agree to disagree, since like I said above, I don't see it as a matter of opinion, but as a a logical problem. Let's assume Catalyst is right, but we picked destroy. Synthetic life can still be built, and it is no green eyed, peace loving synthetic life, but just normal synthetic life. In case of conflict, we have no Reapers, no Catalyst, nothing - we just have our soft words and our big sticks, so everything is absolutely no different than before the Reapers. We just ignored the Catalyst, without either denying him or confirming that he is right. I simply can't see in any way how destroy can be seen as accepting Catalyst's logic, since nothing changed, except for the dead Geth. Control is very similar - but we at least have Reapers, just in case, so it may be seen as slight concession or compromise - without acknowledging the problem we keep the tools to deal with it (though we may as well keep them for completely different reasons).

You simply shouldn't feel obliged to acknowledge Catalyst's logic - only way to dismiss it in words ends really badly, but you can do it through action, you'll miss out on telling how stupid he is, but your world will be Reaperless and Catalystless (and somewhat ruined, but hey, it's a war).

That's all I wanted to say, and I apologize for being douchy.

+25 internets to you sir - for being a sir!

I agree - it is up to the player to listen or agree with the catalyst. On my first playthrough when I met the catalyst (in vanilla ME3) I put down my controller and made the most profound "WTF" face one could make (even my girlfriend at the time wondered what was wrong with me). I totally believe in building a future free from the control of the reapers (as they defined our past so shall we define our future - with destroy). Control seems to just use the reapers as a crutch and synthesis...ugh You know - I am no drunk enough to get into that bull sh*t that is synthesis but suffice to say that where control still uses the reapers as a "last ditch" for peace, synthesis goes commando with the reapers in every way.

Though I do still hold that in the end you reach a comprimise with the reaper overmind on solving its current Organic vs Synthetic issue. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that I can fully well disregard his logic and say "lol wut" while shooting the tube. It is unfortunate that we do kill the geth and edi, but I do think that in their "hearts" they may be ok with the decision when viewed against the other options. We know that synthetics do not outright hate organics (shown via geth vs quarians & edi) and we know that organics can beat synthetics in the end (shown via Javik). Besides there is little to no difference between a war between organics and synthetics and a war between organics. War is war - the only difference is the opponent.

Nicely said sir.

There are bigger issues with ME3 (the journal, the last mission, the fetch system, ME2 romances, ME2 squadmates, starkid) to focus on. But the shift in Central conflict was rather abrupt and very unpleasant.

[Ithurael]

Speezy wrote...

BSN is so pathetic.

HA!! and I sip again!!

You guys are gonna get me soooo drunk!

[Pitznik]

3DandBeyond wrote...

And I'm sorry but I really don't quite get your hammer thing at all.  I assume you want me to figure you are as crazy as the kid, because that's the only way I could compare things.  And I know you aren't like him, just sayin' you would have to be.

I'm trying to give you an example how replacing Reapers with destroy looks like from his point of view. He seeks for an eternal solution, and destroy is an extremely short term solution, taking away the control from him. The point I'm trying to prove is that destroy in no way solves his problem, but it solves our problem, so employing it doesn't require us to change our goal to his, so in turn it doesn't change the goal of the whole game.

It is not really unreasonable for main villain to have some goal, but as long as the game doesn't force us to follow it, it is ok. Well, logically ok, since there is still a matter of extermination of synthetic life.

Someone pointed out that the ending, which shows trust and acceptation toward synthetic life is the ending that kills it, while the ending that in theory accepts the synthetic life is also the ending which changes both humans and organics, proving that there indeed were differences that needed to be removed for true understanding between synthetics and organics. Ironic, and somewhat bitter. To prove that we trust them, we have to destroy them, to really accept them we have to change them (and us).

[Torrible]

Ithurael wrote...

Speezy wrote...

BSN is so pathetic.

HA!! and I sip again!!

You guys are gonna get me soooo drunk!

More drunk than drinking to restaurant analogies? 

[Ithurael]

Torrible wrote...

More drunk than drinking to restaurant analogies? 

Has that been used alot? I can add it if need be?

[DeadpoolBub]

You guys have no imagination if stuff turning into War Assets won't let you like the series anymore. I liked imagining what all my War Assets. Imaging Kirahe leading a team of spies to infilitrate a Reaper base, imagining Zaeed leading merc bands on raids on Reaper hold-outs, etc...

You'd all be ****ing if they did show this stuff. If they randomly had scenes of Rachni entering the Crucible or of the other War Assets. You'd all be whining about how it's taking away from Shepard's story or some BS.

[Torrible]

Ithurael wrote...

Torrible wrote...

More drunk than drinking to restaurant analogies? 

Has that been used alot? I can add it if need be?

Yes but don't bother. Only about 2 people actually play the game anyway.

[3DandBeyond]

Pitznik wrote...

If someone was aggressive, it wasn't you. Still, I can't really agree to disagree, since like I said above, I don't see it as a matter of opinion, but as a a logical problem. Let's assume Catalyst is right, but we picked destroy. Synthetic life can still be built, and it is no green eyed, peace loving synthetic life, but just normal synthetic life. In case of conflict, we have no Reapers, no Catalyst, nothing - we just have our soft words and our big sticks, so everything is absolutely no different than before the Reapers. We just ignored the Catalyst, without either denying him or confirming that he is right. I simply can't see in any way how destroy can be seen as accepting Catalyst's logic, since nothing changed, except for the dead Geth. Control is very similar - but we at least have Reapers, just in case, so it may be seen as slight concession or compromise - without acknowledging the problem we keep the tools to deal with it (though we may as well keep them for completely different reasons).

You simply shouldn't feel obliged to acknowledge Catalyst's logic - only way to dismiss it in words ends really badly, but you can do it through action, you'll miss out on telling how stupid he is, but your world will be Reaperless and Catalystless (and somewhat ruined, but hey, it's a war).

That's all I wanted to say, and I apologize for being douchy.

I don't understand though why you believe necessarily that synthesized synthetics would be all peace loving.  And new synthetic life could still be created in synthesis or any other choice, that's not based on the current tech.  The kid doesn't say people don't have free will of some kind, but rather organics are augmented with tech - reaper tech.  Synthetics are given understanding of organics-I have no idea why they have green eyes, but oh well.  Just because I understand a spider, doesn't mean I necessarily like it.  And any person could still create organic or synthetic life that is not synthesized-since base chemicals are not synthesized.  But if you believe all synthetics and organics are peaceful, then why aren't the reapers all peaceful, too.  Why would they fly in and stop anyone from fighting if they just want to pick daisies?

Destroy still solves the kid's immediate problem by destroying synthetic life, but even that wasn't what he was originally supposed to do-he wasn't supposed to destroy either and yet he does destroy organics.  So, what's so different about destroying synthetics?

[Ithurael]

DeadpoolBub wrote...

You guys have no imagination if stuff turning into War Assets won't let you like the series anymore. I liked imagining what all my War Assets. Imaging Kirahe leading a team of spies to infilitrate a Reaper base, imagining Zaeed leading merc bands on raids on Reaper hold-outs, etc...

You'd all be ****ing if they did show this stuff. If they randomly had scenes of Rachni entering the Crucible or of the other War Assets. You'd all be whining about how it's taking away from Shepard's story or some BS.

Lol wut?

Isn't that one of the biggest complaints we have? That we rarely if ever get to see our war assets in use?

This posts logic...

it..it isn't something you can comprehend

[3DandBeyond]

Pitznik wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

And I'm sorry but I really don't quite get your hammer thing at all.  I assume you want me to figure you are as crazy as the kid, because that's the only way I could compare things.  And I know you aren't like him, just sayin' you would have to be.

I'm trying to give you an example how replacing Reapers with destroy looks like from his point of view. He seeks for an eternal solution, and destroy is an extremely short term solution, taking away the control from him. The point I'm trying to prove is that destroy in no way solves his problem, but it solves our problem, so employing it doesn't require us to change our goal to his, so in turn it doesn't change the goal of the whole game.

It is not really unreasonable for main villain to have some goal, but as long as the game doesn't force us to follow it, it is ok. Well, logically ok, since there is still a matter of extermination of synthetic life.

Someone pointed out that the ending, which shows trust and acceptation toward synthetic life is the ending that kills it, while the ending that in theory accepts the synthetic life is also the ending which changes both humans and organics, proving that there indeed were differences that needed to be removed for true understanding between synthetics and organics. Ironic, and somewhat bitter. To prove that we trust them, we have to destroy them, to really accept them we have to change them (and us).

But he has yet to find an eternal solution.  All of his solutions are temporary, the reapers included.  And it could take forever for people to create synthetics again with Destroy-they were helped out by reaper coding and tech, and they haven't learned much of anything independent of that.  They also have to repair the galaxy first and they have to do it without the AIs they rely on.  No matter what Hackett says, that should not be easy and quick.  They are like children trying to make computers with chopstix.

You want to have it both ways.  I gave you a scenario before that the warped little AI could decide to do and it is the only permanent solution.  Nothing he ever uses will be permanent as long as people of any kind exist, because they will always have the ability to create synthetics and even organics which would lead to the problem as the kid sees it.  He could at some point correctly conclude (based on his own warped logic) that the only solution is to annihilate the galaxy.  That is the only permanent solution and it meets his goal.  It isn't logical but neither is he.  He does things that cause exactly the thing he is trying to prevent.  So, he could easily come to any conclusion whatsoever.  You are limiting things based on your own idea of the perfect sensible solution to his problem.  He does not limit himself to things that make sense.  He is not using logic.

[Pitznik]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't understand though why you believe necessarily that synthesized synthetics would be all peace loving.  And new synthetic life could still be created in synthesis or any other choice, that's not based on the current tech.  The kid doesn't say people don't have free will of some kind, but rather organics are augmented with tech - reaper tech.  Synthetics are given understanding of organics-I have no idea why they have green eyes, but oh well.  Just because I understand a spider, doesn't mean I necessarily like it.  And any person could still create organic or synthetic life that is not synthesized-since base chemicals are not synthesized.  But if you believe all synthetics and organics are peaceful, then why aren't the reapers all peaceful, too.  Why would they fly in and stop anyone from fighting if they just want to pick daisies?

I agree 100%, it was sarcasm. I don't understand synthesis, neither how it could be possible or when possible, why it is supposed to stop the conflict. I can't even think about, since my suspension of disbelief breaks at once and all I'm left with is LOL WUT?

3DandBeyond wrote...

Destroy still solves the kid's immediate problem by destroying synthetic life, but even that wasn't what he was originally supposed to do-he wasn't supposed to destroy either and yet he does destroy organics.  So, what's so different about destroying synthetics?

He really doesn't care about immediate problem, he cares about permanent solution. He has Reapers, why would he sacrifice them to achieve something he could easily do anyway? He's not mad, he's just amoral and very literal - for him preserving organic life is about the continuous idea of organic life, not about life as we understand it. There is absolutely no reason for him to give up what he already has, unless it is just plain better - like (in his opinion) synthesis is.

[Fixers0]

Fully agree, indeed the most painfull to realise is the feeling that everything in the Mass Effect universe seems to grow up to the point of the reaper invasion and their subsequent defeat and then just stops, some part of me wonders if the series would have been better if it just ended with the end of original Mass Effect, despite known flaws, i think through the good usage of themes, the well-established setting and the near perfect structure the game was genius, and we really didn't need a direct sequel, maybe after 5-6 years the start working on a sequal and give it the same genuine feel the original game had, but with recognizable elements.

[Jvolikas]

 I remember starting an ME1 playthrough in May (I had beaten ME3 in March and felt serious disappointment at the ending like many here), but I was still able to enjoy the ME1 journey all over again.  Seeing the worlds and the characters still was a great feeling.  Now with EC I've gotten back to ME3 for a 2nd playthrough and so far its still enjoyable.

I can feel your pain somewhat though because before the EC I tried to start my Renegade Shep for ME3 and couldnt even get past Mars.

[Pitznik]

3DandBeyond wrote...


But he has yet to find an eternal solution.  All of his solutions are temporary, the reapers included.  And it could take forever for people to create synthetics again with Destroy-they were helped out by reaper coding and tech, and they haven't learned much of anything independent of that.  They also have to repair the galaxy first and they have to do it without the AIs they rely on.  No matter what Hackett says, that should not be easy and quick.  They are like children trying to make computers with chopstix.

You want to have it both ways.  I gave you a scenario before that the warped little AI could decide to do and it is the only permanent solution.  Nothing he ever uses will be permanent as long as people of any kind exist, because they will always have the ability to create synthetics and even organics which would lead to the problem as the kid sees it.  He could at some point correctly conclude (based on his own warped logic) that the only solution is to annihilate the galaxy.  That is the only permanent solution and it meets his goal.  It isn't logical but neither is he.  He does things that cause exactly the thing he is trying to prevent.  So, he could easily come to any conclusion whatsoever.  You are limiting things based on your own idea of the perfect sensible solution to his problem.  He does not limit himself to things that make sense.  He is not using logic.

Reapers are repeatable, so it is sort of eternal solution, with a little risk of failure. Still, way more permanent than destroy.

Creating synthetics with post-destroy level of technology is nearly instant, knowledge is not erased. Geth were created completely independent of Reaper tech, this can be done again, and knowing how people's minds work, it will be. No matter how much time it will take, there will be no stone/bronze/iron/antiquity/medieval/steam etc to go through again, it will be much sooner than 50,000 years. Much, much sooner.

He can't annihilate the galaxy because his goal is to prevent tech singularity to destroy organic life, he isn't allowed to just destroy organic life - he could do it long time ago. He is logical, just amoral and literal. He may also be wrong, but not willingly. We have nothing to base on that he can freely skip part of its governing directive, everything above it can only be head canon. As far as we know, destroy is only a huge step back for him, without the ability to undo it when needed.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Why don't we all just gather around the campfire and sing some songs, okay? Get our marshmallows out and roast them like we did when we were kids before all that stuff was made all dysfunctional and stuff.

Let's just uninstall "Arrival" from our HDs and pretend the reapers are stranded forever in Dark Space at the end of ME2 when you BLOW UP the Collector Base, and the series ends there. They are sleeping. Hibernating. Waiting for the Citadel to send the "WAKE THE **** UP" signal that it never sends because you killed Sovereign before it could do that. Forget what they sent over Twitter. If it wasn't in the game it never happened. Mass Effect 3 never existed except maybe in that hallucination Shepard had when that Batarian bartender poisoned her, okay?

You know, treat it like the Alien series after Alien 2. The rest of the series is **** so you never watch it. Hence it never happened.

[Pitznik]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Why don't we all just gather around the campfire and sing some songs, okay? Get our marshmallows out and roast them like we did when we were kids before all that stuff was made all dysfunctional and stuff.

Let's just uninstall "Arrival" from our HDs and pretend the reapers are stranded forever in Dark Space at the end of ME2 when you BLOW UP the Collector Base, and the series ends there. They are sleeping. Hibernating. Waiting for the Citadel to send the "WAKE THE **** UP" signal that it never sends because you killed Sovereign before it could do that. Forget what they sent over Twitter. If it wasn't in the game it never happened. Mass Effect 3 never existed except maybe in that hallucination Shepard had when that Batarian bartender poisoned her, okay?

You know, treat it like the Alien series after Alien 2. The rest of the series is **** so you never watch it. Hence it never happened.

But I kind of like Alien 4.

[The Heretic of Time]

DeadpoolBub wrote...

You guys have no imagination if stuff turning into War Assets won't let you like the series anymore. I liked imagining what all my War Assets. Imaging Kirahe leading a team of spies to infilitrate a Reaper base, imagining Zaeed leading merc bands on raids on Reaper hold-outs, etc...

You'd all be ****ing if they did show this stuff. If they randomly had scenes of Rachni entering the Crucible or of the other War Assets. You'd all be whining about how it's taking away from Shepard's story or some BS.

As much as I love your nickname (I'm a huge Deadpool fan), I'm still forced to say that you're talking complete BS out of your ass.


I don't pay BioWare for headcanon. I pay BioWare for a complete product that gives me a satisfying experience. Forcing me to headcanon all the consequences of my actions because the actual consequences aren't in the game is just BS and not satisfying at all.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 17 août 2012 - 11:03 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Pitznik wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Why don't we all just gather around the campfire and sing some songs, okay? Get our marshmallows out and roast them like we did when we were kids before all that stuff was made all dysfunctional and stuff.

Let's just uninstall "Arrival" from our HDs and pretend the reapers are stranded forever in Dark Space at the end of ME2 when you BLOW UP the Collector Base, and the series ends there. They are sleeping. Hibernating. Waiting for the Citadel to send the "WAKE THE **** UP" signal that it never sends because you killed Sovereign before it could do that. Forget what they sent over Twitter. If it wasn't in the game it never happened. Mass Effect 3 never existed except maybe in that hallucination Shepard had when that Batarian bartender poisoned her, okay?

You know, treat it like the Alien series after Alien 2. The rest of the series is **** so you never watch it. Hence it never happened.

But I kind of like Alien 4.

It did have its moments. Ron Perlman was in it and Weaver actually did sink that no look 3 pt walk away shot.

[jakal66]

Why not just stop playing and stop telling everyone about it?All these people who claim to be the beholders of the truth and "THE REAL FANS" who are supposed to be minions don't just stop posting these kind of threads...
If you can't play again well then tough luck buddy, move on to anohter game.But it almost feels like everyone wants to get in the same wagon and just cry the same old **** we've been hearing since day one.Specially in this sub forum, where every 10 threads 8 have pointless rants or threats or like this one "This is the last time" threads that add nothing but fights between to groups that will never see the other's point of view as valid.I mean I was pissed too but come on, really take it this far?

I don't know may be I'm old and I just see it as a waste of time, the inability of moving forward and finally accepting that this is it and if you can't make yourself play the other 2 games which you consider great just because the ending didn't please you then sir you are not the true fan you claim to be.A fan would appreciate the previous work even if your precious ending was ruined and play the **** out of those other 2 games.

Another thing I feel is that some people here don't even know what kind of ending they'd want, except the ponies and rainbow crowd who needs the mickey mouse endings I personally despise.

Even more pathetic are the people reclaiming the change of the ending when it is obvious that didn't happen and won't happen so why torture yourself?

BSN...too many people with too much time invested in a game, perhaps the star wars syndrome.People who take the Lore and story too serioulsy and truly believe they are Sheppard?

I dunno, I just don't get you poeple.Probably never will.Haven't understood you since the whole ME2 debacle...

[frostajulie]

I just watched a TED talks video and there was this guy talking about how we have 2 selves the experienctial selve and the memory selve and the memory self is dominant which is why endings matter. The end to a long trip the end of a vacation or as I extrapolated onto the sphere of my own experience the end of a game.

He said there were 2 patients who had a colonoscapy and there pain thresholds were measured and patient 1 had a lot of pain throughout the procedure but the last 10 minutes were fine, patient 2 had almost no pain at all but the last 10 minutes had some bad pain but no where near what patient 1 had. When asked about there experiences a few weeks later patient 2 said it was the worst experience of his life but patient 1 who was the patient that actually experienced more pain said it ws not that bad.

The ending of an event colors the way we remember things and the ending of ME3 ruined the pleasurable happy memories we had of the series and it ruined what we thought our memories would be.

As I watched it I took from it Bioware should make games that are not that great but have really awesome endings.

You know ME3 in reverse.

[Torrible]

frostajulie wrote...

I just watched a TED talks video and there was this guy talking about how we have 2 selves the experienctial selve and the memory selve and the memory self is dominant which is why endings matter. The end to a long trip the end of a vacation or as I extrapolated onto the sphere of my own experience the end of a game.

He said there were 2 patients who had a colonoscapy and there pain thresholds were measured and patient 1 had a lot of pain throughout the procedure but the last 10 minutes were fine, patient 2 had almost no pain at all but the last 10 minutes had some bad pain but no where near what patient 1 had. When asked about there experiences a few weeks later patient 2 said it was the worst experience of his life but patient 1 who was the patient that actually experienced more pain said it ws not that bad.

The ending of an event colors the way we remember things and the ending of ME3 ruined the pleasurable happy memories we had of the series and it ruined what we thought our memories would be.

As I watched it I took from it Bioware should make games that are not that great but have really awesome endings.

You know ME3 in reverse.

Maybe it's not so much about the ending as the perception of whether things are going to get better or worse. People can endure more pain if they believe things will get better or if they believe they have control over their situation. People's stress levels increase when the converse is true. Even then, I'm highly skeptical about the validity of the experiement. Experiencing excruciating pain is not something you can pass off as "not that bad" regardless of the duration.

Modifié par Torrible, 17 août 2012 - 11:43 .

[tonnactus]

I just imagine Mass Effect 2 and 3 were weird halluzinations/dreams of Shepard.So i can atleast enjoy the first game at time to time.

[Cainne Chapel]

Man I feel for you guys that had the series ruined.

Maybe its cuz I'm wired differently, but because one part of a series is subpar doesn't automatically destroy my interest or love of the series.

But I will say much luck in your future endeavors and hopefully you guys can find something that will never let you down.

So far Bioware hasn't let me down thank goodness, I've enjoyed everygame they've released so far, so i hope the trend continues. (some more than others sure, but still have yet to play a "bad" game in my eyes from them)