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[Isichar]

@Geceka

The reason I say the theme changes is because from the moment Shepard trys to activate the crucible and is pulled into the catalysts room the reapers are defeated no matter what you do. You can argue the manner in which you handle the threat is different. But every option, even refuse (though it takes a bit longer), results in the reapers no longer been at war with the galaxy, the cycle ends.

Destroy was obviously something very expected, though the catalysts motives, which were not really explored much before now, force an additional cost, which some people (myself included) find unacceptable (the cost, not the choice to add that cost).

Control was very much explored as well since the start of mass effect 3 and maybe even 2 and I have absolutely no argument against it (though it is not my ideal choice of an ending) and I think fit perfectly within the story.

Synthesis is pretty much space magic and really the easiest point for me to focus on for the deux ex machina ending argument since it is a very large stretch from anything we have done up to this point in the story. The idea behind synthesis is interesting but the way it is presented and described makes my head hurt when I try and think of it logically. Saying the technology is so advanced it looks like magic feels like a bit of an excuse Tbh since you can apply that to just about anything they do... seems like a slippery slope. I suppose its true I could just not choose the option, but its still a viable option in the story and hard to just ignore.

Personally I think they could have left the reapers unexplained for the most part and that would have been for for the story, they were always larger then life and I never expected to have any understanding of their motives, but that's just my preference.

Modifié par Isichar, 19 août 2012 - 08:22 .

[Sailears]

What an interesting and thought provoking article.

The "all-caps" is a bit painful to read, but nevertheless it has allowed me to see the whole situation from a different angle.

Still, that doesn't change that I still think overall the main story could have been a lot better (over all three games, especially ME2).

[geceka]

Isichar wrote...

Destroy was obviously something very expected, though the catalysts motives, which were not really explored much before now, force an additional cost, which some people (myself included) find unacceptable (the cost, not the choice to add that cost).

Yeah, absolutely, the cost in Destroy, even at high EMS, is large. I think that's one of the more intricate aspects of this choice, though, as just the one ending that doesn't resolve organics/synthetics at all either puts the player in a position where they need to say "ok, fine, EDI and the Geth aren't real people anyway", which just makes the catalyst's point that lasting peace will be problematic with this attitude, or the synthetics' sacrifice will be remembered in the future, once new synthetic beings arise, as organics are very much indebted to them – Which is something that is totally not in the game, but something the player can think about.

Isichar wrote...

Synthesis is pretty much space magic and really the easiest point for me to focus on for the deux ex machina ending argument since it is a very large stretch from anything we have done up to this point in the story. The idea behind synthesis is interesting but the way it is presented and described makes my head hurt when I try and think of it logically. Saying the technology is so advanced it looks like magic feels like a bit of an excuse Tbh since you can apply that to just about anything they do... seems like a slippery slope. I suppose its true I could just not choose the option, but its still a viable option in the story and hard to just ignore.

My main gripe with synthesis is not so much the core idea itself (like I said, I have no problem with the Reapers being so advanced that some of their feats can only be described as "magic"), but that this ending is presented without any ambiguity, like an utopia without any clouds on the horizon, touching on subjects not related to the game's story at all (EDI even talks about beating mortality. Hmm.) It's too shiny without any rough edges, whereas the other two endings have much more individual character to them, due to their flaws. When I saw synthesis' EC slides for the first time, I couldn't resist thinking about it almost like a parody of a super-happy everything-is-good-and-well ending in its completeness.

Isichar wrote...

Personally I think they could have left the reapers unexplained for the most part and that would have been for for the story, they were always larger then life and I never expected to have any understanding of their motives, but that's just my preference.

That would have been an option, but I don't think it could be pulled off without touching on subjects that have even less of a place in Mass Effect. They have always presented themselves as gods, and stripping them of this god-like status was, at least to my mind, necessary to overcome them and their influence on the galaxy.

My favorite resolution of the cycle idea would actually have been if the cycle turned out not to be about harvesting the races at its core, but the whole extinction phase just being the beginning of something else the Reapers do each time, rendering all the organics just "collateral damage" to something bigger, more mysterious. I would have found this to be much more aligned with Sovereign's sermon on Virmire, and let's face it, Sovereign definitely was the most awe-inspiring Reaper of them all.

[JPR1964]

Nothing interesting, really...

He doesn't even played the game, or at least, not the same I played...

The reapers killed the child, not Sheppard : he should stop smoking illegal things when he writes...

...

JPR out!

[Isichar]

geceka wrote...


Yeah, absolutely, the cost in Destroy, even at high EMS, is large. I think that's one of the more intricate aspects of this choice, though, as just the one ending that doesn't resolve organics/synthetics at all either puts the player in a position where they need to say "ok, fine, EDI and the Geth aren't real people anyway", which just makes the catalyst's point that lasting peace will be problematic with this attitude, or the synthetics' sacrifice will be remembered in the future, once new synthetic beings arise, as organics are very much indebted to them – Which is something that is totally not in the game, but something the player can think about.

Thats an interesting viewpoint actually. What bothers me is destroy you are rejecting the catalysts logic that synthetics and organics can not live together, and yet you must sacrifice the best chances at real peace between the two. However in synthesis you are submitting to the logic that synthetics and organics can not live together and yet it lets the synthetics live. If the catalyst logic is correct (a scary concept, but I can pretend) then the new synthetics that come after destroy will eventually most likely end up at war with organics. If Geth and EDI were alive this is something I would be willing to chance certainly, but... since they are dead i am much more skeptical to chance peace with new synthetics since it pretty much took a threat like the reapers to end the war.

geceka wrote...

That would have been an option, but I don't think it could be pulled off without touching on subjects that have even less of a place in Mass Effect. They have always presented themselves as gods, and stripping them of this god-like status was, at least to my mind, necessary to overcome them and their influence on the galaxy.

My favorite resolution of the cycle idea would actually have been if the cycle turned out not to be about harvesting the races at its core, but the whole extinction phase just being the beginning of something else the Reapers do each time, rendering all the organics just "collateral damage" to something bigger, more mysterious. I would have found this to be much more aligned with Sovereign's sermon on Virmire, and let's face it, Sovereign definitely was the most awe-inspiring Reaper of them all.

The Sovereign conversation on virmire was one of the most memorable moments in videogames for me.

"What is that? some kind of VI interface?"
"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."
"I don't think this is a VI..."

That moment defined the reapers for me, and I was dissapointed to see they did not have much distinct personal features other then harbinger who was just too busy doing other things to care about us for 99% of the game. The reaper conversation on Rannoch was interesting but other then a badass renegade interrupt it did not inspire the same level of awe that talking to Sovereign in ME1 did.

That mystery and inability to understand the reapers is what made them such and intriguing villians, for me it would have even made sense if they simply harvested because they viewed themselves as the next stage of life.

Since they decided to try and explain the reapers and their motives more, I wish it would have been a little more developed throughout the game rather then been 1 large information dump at the end though.

Modifié par Isichar, 19 août 2012 - 09:57 .

[geceka]

Isichar wrote...

What bothers me is destroy you are rejecting the catalysts logic that synthetics and organics can not live together, and yet you must sacrifice the best chances at real peace between the two. However in synthesis you are submitting to the logic that synthetics and organics can not live together and yet it lets the synthetics live. If the catalyst logic is correct (a scary concept, but I can pretend) then the new synthetics that come after destroy will eventually most likely end up at war with organics. If Geth and EDI were alive this is something I would be willing to chance certainly, but... since they are dead i am much more skeptical to chance peace with new synthetics since it pretty much took a threat like the reapers to end the war.

Also quite an interesting interpretation. I think that's exactly where the endings shine, thoughts like this that aren't necessarily something going through your/Shepard's head right when you pick your choice, but they linger and become more and more apparent the more you think about it. After all, Shepard only had a few seconds to make a decision that will shape the galaxy for a very long time to come, and that in itself is pretty epic. You can be done with the game right when the credits roll if you swing that way, or you can spend a lot of time thinking the implications of your particular choice through, with all your choices before that (genophage cured/kept, geth/quarians, etc..) altering the framework a bit if that's more your thing. At least to me, that's a good thing.

Isichar wrote...

The Sovereign conversation on virmire was one of the most memorable moments in videogames for me.

"What is that? some kind of VI interface?"
"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."
"I don't think this is a VI..."

That moment defined the reapers for me, and I was dissapointed to see they did not have much distinct personal features other then harbinger who was just too busy doing other things to care about us for 99% of the game. The reaper conversation on Rannoch was interesting but other then a badass renegade interrupt it did not inspire the same level of awe that talking to Sovereign in ME1 did.

Totally. I bought ME1 used without knowing much about it, and while I liked it right from the beginning, the Sovereign conversation was what made it stand out to me story-wise. That, and how Sovereign did not even bother to shoot the cruisers blocking his way to the Citadel, but rather smashing head-on right through them, those things defined the Reapers for me as well. That and the scale of time in their doing: Billions of years are a timeframe that's difficult to grasp, very awe-inspiring.

Harbinger simply suffered from the fact that he was "not there" during the events of ME2, just watching from the sidelines like an angry puppeteer as Shepard goes on foiling his plans with relative ease. For me, he only had one good line in the entire series, and that was "we will find another way", which was much more "Reaper" than anything else ever coming from him. In ME3, well, let's just call his appearance a cameo... Hopefully, he'll get explored a bit more in Leviathan, but considering we now know that the first race to be turned into a Reaper was not happy with it, and we know that Harbinger is the first Reaper, I fear he might just end up as something like a tragic figure, trying to come to terms with his new form and role in the cycle, probably torn between his acceptance of the cycle (after all, that race created the catalyst for a reason) and his "losing everything he ever had", to use the catalyst's words. We will see.