67 réponses à ce sujet

[tiberius_adamantine]

So I've watched the movie and I feel that the movie was mostly atrocious. I am not making this thread to be "hating" on the story but it creates a number of issues for me against it. I find that it is unreallistic to have so many blood mages that are trying to look and fight like reapers and their role in this movie.

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use. It has been stated that many apostates turn to blood magic but in a desperation to survive, not for personal power. Their are examples of blood mages gone bad but these tend to be malificarum which is a seperate classification. Not all apostates practice blood magic and of those that do most wouldn't act like reapers. They try to classify all blood mages as being evil when clearly they are not.

Second, the position the circle takes doesn't make sense. Only a small minority of mages would support the chantry, being the loyalists. The aquetarians (sorry for any misspelling) believe in a code of conduct but were shifting their support for the libertarians, since their views don't really collide. The lucrosions want to make money, best achieved through independance, and the isolationists want to live freely away from the people who fear them. It doesn't make sense then that the mages should be portrayed as wanting to work with the chantry and that they view all mages that are rebelling as villians, especially given that the events of Kirkwall have soured relations.

Third, the so-called villians seem to try attacking too openly and with scythes. Magic would allow people to do things subtly and from a distance. Take the flashback when we see Cassandra's brother getting killed, the mages decided to openly attack and try to kidnap him. This doesn't make sense because her family is royalty in her country therefore making a frontal attack unlikely to succeed. Also if the enemy truly was a group of blood mages, couldn't they have used their magic to subtly try and abduct him, maybe even mind-controlling him?

In short this film seems to conflict with what we learned by playing the games. Does anyone else feel this way or am i misanalyzing its themes?

[Dave of Canada]

 The blood mages were mostly a dragon cult and they don't really care about consequences, blood magic isn't inherently evil but it's the magic with the most potential for abuse when people don't care.

In addition, the split between mageswho wanted to split between the Chantry and those who don't was pretty much majority to support the Chantry until the events in Asunder when one vote made them go to war. In addition, the entire point of it was showing there's extremists on both sides.

The mage fighting style was stupid, yes.

[thats1evildude]

Not all blood mages are evil, just 99.9 per cent of them.

Blood magic is a favoured tool of evil mages for good reason: it offers them immense power if they're willing to put aside such petty notions as "morality". Sure, you could use it exclusively for good, but the potential for corruption from using such power is great.

The blood mages in the movie are also, as Dave pointed out, all dragon cultists. Dragon cultists have a penchant for madness and megalomania.

The Loyalists are a larger fraternity in the Circle than you think. But Galyan doesn't strike me as a Loyalist; I think he's an Aequitarian, who are dedicated to using their powers ethically. That's a more "pro-Chantry" position than you think. Wynne was an Aequitarian and she spoke against splitting from the Chantry.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 août 2012 - 06:09 .

[tiberius_adamantine]

thats1evildude wrote...

Not all blood mages are evil, just 99.9 per cent of them.

Blood magic is a favoured tool of evil mages for good reason: it offers them immense power if they're willing to put aside such petty notions as "morality". Sure, you could use it exclusively for good, but the potential for corruption from using such power is great.

The blood mages in the movie are also, as Dave pointed out, all dragon cultists. Dragon cultists have a penchant for madness and megalomania.

The Loyalists are a larger fraternity in the Circle than you think. But Galyan doesn't strike me as a Loyalist; I think he's an Aequitarian, who are dedicated to using their powers ethically. That's a more "pro-Chantry" position than you think. Wynne was an Aequitarian and she spoke against splitting from the Chantry.

Power is in general highly corruptive if you let it be. The chantry doesn't use magic but is corrupt in its use of power as it oppresses mages from all perspectives. Again I would point out that many would turn to blood magic to survive, not to gain power. Malificarium are evil, but not all blood mages are.  Dialogue in the first game hints that the acquitarians are close to siding with the libertarians and emphasized again when Wynne talks to you in awakening because she is afraid that will happen. These people coundn't be seen as dragon cultists because the don't appear to worship dragons and cultists would be uninterested in freeing mages as opposed to spreading their cult. I have not read asunder yet but would point out that it is unreallistic for most mages to be pro chantry because: they keep you from your family, they lock you in a tower for most of your concievable life, mages can marry but that isn't likely given their conditions, and (as we learned from wynne) they will take away any children born to mages forcefully. Mages are being treated as slaves or worse and should largely feel no loyalty to the chantry that treats them as less than human. Fear of being killed is the only thing that would make them hesitate to rebel.

[DPSSOC]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...
Second, the position the circle takes doesn't make sense. Only a small minority of mages would support the chantry, being the loyalists. The aquetarians (sorry for any misspelling) believe in a code of conduct but were shifting their support for the libertarians, since their views don't really collide...It doesn't make sense then that the mages should be portrayed as wanting to work with the chantry and that they view all mages that are rebelling as villians, especially given that the events of Kirkwall have soured relations.

Correct me if I'm wrong I haven't seen Dawn of the Seeker but doesn't it take place when Cassandra is just starting out as a Templar?  If so wouldn't that easily be at least a decade before even the start of DA:O.

tiberius_adamantine wrote...
Again I would point out that many would turn to blood magic to survive, not to gain power. Malificarium are evil, but not all blood mages are.

But all evil mages are blood mages. You run across obviously evil mages in DA they will be blood mages, without variation. Not to say all blood mages are evil; I mean we've met the one, I hesitate to use good so I'll just say not evil, one that disproves that. However evil mages turn to blood magic because it's a quick and easy path to greater power.

As for mages not turning to blood magic to gain power that's BS. The only benefit of blood magic over regular magic is more power, some mages may have less malicious designs for that power but the goal is always power. It may be more power to fend off an attack, more power to augment healing a mortally wounded friend, or more power to torture and maim people because you can, it's still just about power.

[Renmiri1]

The bad Templar battling Cassandra mentions the "events on Kirkwall" so it has to have taken place after DA2.

Did I miss the part about all mages being bad ? Galyan's friends saved Cassandra twice and were also trying to save the little girl who controlled dragons. The bad mages were just that crazy guy's sect, not all mages.

Also about blood magic: There is a limit to how much blood you can draw from YOURSELF without dying so any "non evil" blood mage would have to use blood magic very sparingly and could never match an evil blood mage's power because evil blood mages have no compunctions about using someone else's blood and the amount of blood they use is only limited by their ambition.. Merril in DA2 is a good example of a good blood mage. She only uses blood magic when she absolutely needs to. She never uses someone else's blood.

[DPSSOC]

Ok from what I saw in the trailer it looked like they were trying to depict her as much, much younger than she was at the end of DA2.

[Renmiri1]

The Cassandra you see on DA2 interrogating Varric is older but that took place some years after the Kirkwall rebellion. Varric is retelling the story, 2-3 years after it happened.

[Renmiri1]

Added the clip to the mention of Kirkwall to youtube. Apologies but I could not rip the audiol Skip to minute 3 if you are impatient

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 août 2012 - 11:22 .

[Anvos]

Personally I find other things I take problem with it.  Some of them though are more just things I think are storytelling convienence.

1.  The dragon's convient use of fire.  When attacking the divine it doesn't just barbaque her yet, when fighting the pride demon it just keeps firing them off.  Plus I don't see why the mage would hold it back or not command it to do so when the divine flailing about on fire would be far more cruel and shocking.

2. Blood Mages killing Cassandra's family.  Their blood mages they don't need consent to get somebody to do something for them.  Not to mention that if your going for the shock and fear factor watching as somebody having the life drained out of them is far more tormenting than just killed, not to mention draining lifeforce equals more power for blood mage.

3. Cassandra shattering a golem's leg in 1 shot with a 1 handed weapon.

4.   Nobody seems to care that Cassandra is potentially tainted after the darkspawn wounds her.

5. The templars and seekers aparently forget they have powers other than weapons such as holy smite or silence.

Modifié par Anvos, 19 août 2012 - 06:23 .

[Foolsfolly]

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

[Anvos]

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Err... your average tevintar mage doesn't view blood magic as evil wether they use it or know how to use it or not.

[Foolsfolly]

Anvos wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Err... your average tevintar mage doesn't view blood magic as evil wether they use it or know how to use it or not.

Tevinter Magisters aren't exactly rational sane people either. Every one we've met have been crazy eyed slavers who view people as living batteries for their magic.

[DKJaigen]

same things can be said about templars not being sane and rational.

[tiberius_adamantine]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anvos wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Err... your average tevintar mage doesn't view blood magic as evil wether they use it or know how to use it or not.

Tevinter Magisters aren't exactly rational sane people either. Every one we've met have been crazy eyed slavers who view people as living batteries for their magic.

That would be a sample size and not representative of all their people. We used to have slaves but that didn't mean everyone supported it. There have been attempts to end slavery in Tevinter before, they just haven't worked yet. Blood magic, like any school of magic, has unique abilities but is no more corruptive than any other form of power. It always comes down to an individual's morals.

[Dagr88]

My biggest problem with the film was that it looked like jRPG and not Western RPG that DA actually is.
The way heroine cuts thru 10 blood mages like butter (jRPG part) while they are trying to stop her with miniature glowing pom-pons...
Should have made her a Warden for DA:O when there would be no need in gathering all those allies. Some "slash-bam-kick-stab" and achdemon is dead, along with the horde.

The whole "superhero thing" is not DA

Modifié par Dagr88, 19 août 2012 - 03:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Duncan argues that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to combat the darkspawn, to the mage protagonist.

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Duncan argues that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to combat the darkspawn, to the mage protagonist.

Duncan isn't a moral authority either. Steal around Ostagar and he's fine with you being a pickpocket and just says not to get caught. He also kills Jory, leaves the Couslands to die, and will not say one word to the Denerim guards about how the Arl's son kidnapped, murdered, and attempted (or did if you choose so) rape to elves.

He's an extremely pragmatic cold-hearted 'ends justify the means' kinda guy.

[Jamie9]

The only problem I really had with it was the exaggeration on the enemies. Nobody can take down 50 Golems, and nobody can take down 5 Dragons.

It's simply not going to happen.

[Karlone123]

Foolsfolly wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Duncan argues that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to combat the darkspawn, to the mage protagonist.

Duncan isn't a moral authority either. Steal around Ostagar and he's fine with you being a pickpocket and just says not to get caught. He also kills Jory, leaves the Couslands to die, and will not say one word to the Denerim guards about how the Arl's son kidnapped, murdered, and attempted (or did if you choose so) rape to elves.

He's an extremely pragmatic cold-hearted 'ends justify the means' kinda guy.

1. Grey Wardens use any means necessary against the Darkspawn, that's how they work.
2. He recruited a pickpocket trying to snatch Duncan's purse (Daveth)
3. He was worried Ser Jory would run off and spread the secret of the Warden joining ritual (probably).
4. Saving the Cousland estate isn't his priority, only recruiting the Warden matters (he died at ostagar in battle so...)
5.Denerim guards most likely do not care about the elves and some of them intended to rape the kidnapped elves.

[Sarquindi]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The bad Templar battling Cassandra mentions the "events on Kirkwall" so it has to have taken place after DA2.

I thought this, too.  I was terribly confused, until I did some research into Kirkwall's history.  She could be referring to another incident.  For example, how the Magisters were responsible for the city's slave trade or maybe Viscount Perrin's attempt to expel the templar order from Kirkwall.

[Huntress]

Foolsfolly wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Duncan argues that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to combat the darkspawn, to the mage protagonist.

Duncan isn't a moral authority either. Steal around Ostagar and he's fine with you being a pickpocket and just says not to get caught. He also kills Jory, leaves the Couslands to die, and will not say one word to the Denerim guards about how the Arl's son kidnapped, murdered, and attempted (or did if you choose so) rape to elves.

He's an extremely pragmatic cold-hearted 'ends justify the means' kinda guy.

Something you need to remember is: the wardens accept anyone who can hold his/her ground, doesn't matter if is a noble knight or a blood-mage, their moral is: to be able to kill darkspawn, he can't take side with either the elves who are going to be raped or the Noble family that has no chance of surviving if they make their stance in the seller.

Elves are nothing to the humans eyes so he can B!tch about it all he wants the guards will ignore him all the same, an elf vs a Human noble... well you get the math right?
A noble family whos castle is under attack  by the arl mans, when 99% of their troops is gone, you want duncan to defend them.. 1+1=???

He kill Jory because he is a coward at heart or maybe the ritual ask for a life to spare another, not one really knows about it this ritual and maybe he kills him because of  if he let Jory leave he might make things bigger that what they actually are and doing so the gray warden lose.. recruits in the future.

Let me say that gray warden take alot of criminals and the ones who have their life at the end of the sword takes the first chance to become a gray warden. haven't you take notes of how many times the gray warden said: "redeem yourself"

[Silfren]

Huntress wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

First, blood magic isn't evil. No power is inheritantly good or evil, it depends on its use

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Duncan argues that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to combat the darkspawn, to the mage protagonist.

Duncan isn't a moral authority either. Steal around Ostagar and he's fine with you being a pickpocket and just says not to get caught. He also kills Jory, leaves the Couslands to die, and will not say one word to the Denerim guards about how the Arl's son kidnapped, murdered, and attempted (or did if you choose so) rape to elves.

He's an extremely pragmatic cold-hearted 'ends justify the means' kinda guy.

Some of your examples of Duncan's alleged coldheartedness are faulty.  Firstly, he hardly abandoned the Couslands.  He was one man against scores, possibly hundreds, and he knew he couldn't actually save anyone.  If he had remained to defend the Couslands, they all would have died, and given that he knew better than anyone that a Blight was on the horizon, he couldn't throw his life away when that took precedence.  Even so, the teyrn was mortally wounded and two young, able-bodied people can escape more easily than a seriously wounded elderly man and his elderly wife in tow along with them.  As for Jory, well, Jory knew that once he accepted recruitment into the Wardens, there was no going back, and he tried to escape that fate regardless.  Duncan didn't kill him in cold blood but out of necessit, given that Jory went so far as to pull his sword in an attempt to gainsay his own freely made choice.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 août 2012 - 09:22 .

[Renmiri1]

Duncan used to be a pickpocket himself and was recruited to the Wardens after he killed a man... Read the Calling

[Foolsfolly]

Look being coldest hearted pragmatic bastard that ever lived is essential to being a Grey Warden. You're up against an impossibly strong enemy and the world will let politics and hurt-feelings stand in the way of defeating that enemy like 98% of the time.

So you have to be cold hearted to be a Warden. Even the nicest PC Warden Commander that you play as still has to be pragmatic enough to realize that you'll lead Ferelden into a battle that will be a huge and costly defeat if 3-4 people die (Riodin, the PC, and Alistair and/or Loghain).

So I understand Duncan being cold-hearted in those cases. It's what the job calls for to ensure there's a world past the Blight. But that pragmatic personality also colors his view of blood magic.

In a pure story based sense the only blood mage who isn't chaotically evil in two games, multiple DLCs, and an expansion were Merrill and Jowan.

Merrill, like many characters in DA2 had an unhealthy obsession. Her obsession just happened to be a demon possessed statue that was tricking her into repairing a gateway for the demon to leave its cage and possess Merrill. So Merrill's more... naively incapable of realizing the terrible choices she's making. And her blood magic usage probably falls into that category.

Jowan started that whole mess in Redcliffe but he feels bad for it. It's also worth noting his blood magic didn't cause the whole Redcliffe incident some poison and a hidden noble mageling caused that.

So while some characters rationalize that blood magic is simply a source of power and no different than any other magic. There is still a very large percentage of blood mages we've met that are simply insane, turn into abominations, or build Frankenstein-esque monsters for the lulz.

At best blood magic is highly corrosive to your mental well-being; something only the strongest of wills could possibly use without it destroying them. At worst blood magic is absolutely evil and even when rarely used it will destroy you.