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[The Night Haunter]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Look being coldest hearted pragmatic bastard that ever lived is essential to being a Grey Warden. You're up against an impossibly strong enemy and the world will let politics and hurt-feelings stand in the way of defeating that enemy like 98% of the time.

So you have to be cold hearted to be a Warden. Even the nicest PC Warden Commander that you play as still has to be pragmatic enough to realize that you'll lead Ferelden into a battle that will be a huge and costly defeat if 3-4 people die (Riodin, the PC, and Alistair and/or Loghain).

So I understand Duncan being cold-hearted in those cases. It's what the job calls for to ensure there's a world past the Blight. But that pragmatic personality also colors his view of blood magic.

In a pure story based sense the only blood mage who isn't chaotically evil in two games, multiple DLCs, and an expansion were Merrill and Jowan.

Merrill, like many characters in DA2 had an unhealthy obsession. Her obsession just happened to be a demon possessed statue that was tricking her into repairing a gateway for the demon to leave its cage and possess Merrill. So Merrill's more... naively incapable of realizing the terrible choices she's making. And her blood magic usage probably falls into that category.

Jowan started that whole mess in Redcliffe but he feels bad for it. It's also worth noting his blood magic didn't cause the whole Redcliffe incident some poison and a hidden noble mageling caused that.

So while some characters rationalize that blood magic is simply a source of power and no different than any other magic. There is still a very large percentage of blood mages we've met that are simply insane, turn into abominations, or build Frankenstein-esque monsters for the lulz.

At best blood magic is highly corrosive to your mental well-being; something only the strongest of wills could possibly use without it destroying them. At worst blood magic is absolutely evil and even when rarely used it will destroy you.

I have an answer for that!!!

Blood Mages are banned, thus the only people who might use blood magic are people who want power (Bad) will do anything to escape Templars (also bad, though a little less bad) and people who aren't part of the chantry (Merril, other elves and Rivain, partly).

So it makes sense that any blood mage we see is likely to fall into first two categories, as they are the more numerous. So using the mages we encounter as a source of info is not a Simple Random Sample (SRS, a term essential for statistical models). Basically we cannot make accurate assumptions from the data we have. Thus blood magic could actually be evil with some few able to resist it (Warden/Hawke and Merrill) or blood magic really could just be a tool and it is the wielders themselves who are evil.

The only way to know for sure would be for the Chantry to lift ban on blood magic and allow a few reasonable, loyal mages to practice it, then see if they become evil. If they do then you are right, if they dont then others are right.

If you want to think of it this way, say you go to a college (a public university) and ask everyone you meet if they are liberal or conservative. Most people will say liberal because college demographics work that way, now this doesnt mean the whole country is liberal because you didn't take an SRS, you took a selected sample.

[Anvos]

Foolsfolly wrote...

In a pure story based sense the only blood mage who isn't chaotically evil in two games, multiple DLCs, and an expansion were Merrill and Jowan.

I really wouldn't consider Avernus choatic evil. I'd say he's more of a machiavellian neutral.

Corpheyous I would say evil but we can't say beyond that as for the amount we run into him so far I'd say he's more confused due to just waking up, when his last main memories are of the golden city, than chaotic in his actions.

Poppa Hawke also was not chaotic evil and only used his blood magic to help keep Corpheyous contained.

Plus Mage Warden and Mage Hawke blood mages are only chaotic evil if you chose to play them that way.

Also Zathrian seemed more of a lawful evil.

Modifié par Anvos, 23 août 2012 - 08:41 .

[Foolsfolly]

Was Zathrian a blood mage? And obviously the Warden and Hawke don't count nor would Wynne if you made her a blood mage (which I always do she's so much more worthwhile as one).

On topic.

I saw this movie today.

It's single greatest flaw, something that it can never come back from, is.... it's boring. It's dull. Cassandra hates mages because, like Meredith, mage's killed her family! Ok, that's an uninspired choice for forced melodrama.

So Cassandra's angry and that's her entire personality. She has no sense of humor or gives anything any forethought. She's just angry. To off set this they get a guy who has one line worth a damn to play Dragon Age Leading Man (Alistair, Anders, ..Varric?) but unlike those before him this guy gets no chance to be awesome and no chance to give you belly laughs.

I guess he's not bad looking. Neither is Cassandra who went from really angry fascist lady to 22 year old Kim Kardashian. Not complaining too much about that but there you go.

Over the course of the seemingly never ending run time Angry Cass turns into "Wow I learned that people don't adhere to stereotypes and I like mages now" Cass. And being an anime lines like that are actually said because subtle and nuanced dialogue just cannot survive the translation process.

The Dragon flight animation was weird too. It looked like they were swimming underwater more than actually flying. Weird.

The story's also over compensating for the DA2 plot where every mage got colored "EVIL CRAZY" and so the anime goes far out of its way to show that Templars, Seekers, Revered Mothers, and mages can all be good guys and bad guys. What all that did however was flood the run time with so many characters that they all ended up being paper thin.

The Divine is good... because she's a target for the evil Mother. The Evil Mother is clearly the evil Mother because the voice actress has to act like she's in a high school recital of Snow White. The evil Templar also happens to sound so over-the-top evil that you may as well have him wear a neon sign screaming "I'm a traitor."

And none of them get any depth. The closest reasoning any of them get is the Mother who wants to be Divine. A job so desired because we're told its desirable.

A special mention must be made for how stale and barren Orlais looks. Despite all the talk of shoes, silks, crazy hair with birds in them, and the wonderful and diverse sights and sounds of Val Rouxeou (or however you spell it) it kinda turned out to be a bit of woods, a quarry, and a large slate plaza devoid of color or fashion.

There was so much granite and lifelessness that I thought they perfectly nailed Tevinter... if only this were Tevinter. We didn't even get to see the Chevaliers or touch on anything remotely Orlisian like the bard's game and all the spies and intrigue. The plot tried intrigue as much as it could but I doubt intrigue works when your crazy complex plan involves mind controlling ogres, golems, and dragons by the scores.

That's a bit too blunt for proper intrigue.

Of course being a single movie it could only take one aspect of Orlais and handle it well. The fault here is that it picked up that damn Templar/Mage story which has yet to be interesting. Largely because the villains to these stories remain uninteresting and paper thin "I'm Meredith and I'm idol crazy!" "I'm Orsino and I'm a blood mage abomination!" "I'm whoever this movie's Mother is and I've never heard of poison so here's a bunch of dragons and at least a hundred co-conspirators that will likely ruin my complex plan to kill like 4 people."

And these mage/templar stories fail because there's no real answer to the question poised. "Which is better: personal freedom to those with crazy power or protect the majority from the threat that a handful of super powerful people may pose."

It's a legitimate question and something worth looking into. And it's so much that there's no villain in that argument as far as the problem is that's two really polarizing extremes and of course there has to be a middle ground. But no one looks for that middle ground because OH MY GOD BIG DRAGON FIGHT or HARVESTER and then CRAZY STATUES AND ANIME fight!

Which is why the mage/templar argument worked so well in Origins. Not only were there people who looked, sought, and upkept the middle ground (Wynne, the Knight Commander, and even the First Enchanter was smart enough to pick his battles and play politics with the lives under him to keep the Circle running) but it wasn't the sole focus of the story.

But worst of all the story never asked anything of Cassandra. She's an angry girl who runs headlong into battle time and again. Sometimes she's swatted away like a fly or nearly killed but sometimes she just plain slaughters her enemies in a ridiculously quick fashion. She never learns to alter her fighting style. Nor does the story really force her to change meaningfully. The token "I learned not all mages are evil" lesson is forced because of how cliche and easy it is.

Oh your family were slain by mages? That justifies her hatred of mages. It couldn't be based on a personal view? It had to be the result of trauma? Cliched drama? She couldn't just believe one thing and then question that belief?

But Rise of the Seeker isn't the type of movie that's meant to be thought provoking. At its core its about a CG chick wearing no pants kicking asses and cleaving golem's legs apart with an impossibly sharp blade (why don't they make armor out of the same metal they use to make swords?). And if that's all you want from an anime movie based on Dragon Age, huzzah.

If you wanted something you'd enjoy as a movie... there's nothing to see here. Besides I imagine Cassandra will be handled better when she's a companion in DA3. And this 'origin' for her will likely be retconned into something better or summarized to sound cooler.

If there's another DA movie perhaps it should be made in-house. You guys have the talent and you respect the material a bit more than some other studio would.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 24 août 2012 - 07:04 .

[Anvos]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Was Zathrian a blood mage? And obviously the Warden and Hawke don't count nor would Wynne if you made her a blood mage (which I always do she's so much more worthwhile as one).

Well he at least used blood magic in summoning and binding witherfang and those living trees he commands if you fight him are said to be demons who accidentally possessed trees when the veil was extremely thin.  So its close enough if not exactly.

As for the topic you actually touched on a few things I forgot to mention such as how bland they made orlais.  Honestly for a second I mistoke it for an off shoot of Kirkwall with how bland it looked.  Also thinking about it I'm not sure why the chantry is based out a random stone fort like building in the middle of nowhere Orlais instead of the grand cathedral in Val Royeux, especially when you consider how taxing it must be to get enough food and prosions in for all those pilgrims.

Modifié par Anvos, 25 août 2012 - 02:49 .

[Foolsfolly]

I must have forgot if the binding of the spirit to the wolf involved blood magic or not. It's been a while.

And yeah, Orlais looked bad. And according to the special features that large stone fort like structure was the Grand Cathedral... which is infinitely disappointing.

[Xilizhra]

I'm completely unsurprised with Orlais bragging about itself to make it look nicer than it really is. In fact, I'm not entirely sure Orlais does much else, aside from conquer.

[Anvos]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I must have forgot if the binding of the spirit to the wolf involved blood magic or not. It's been a while.

And yeah, Orlais looked bad. And according to the special features that large stone fort like structure was the Grand Cathedral... which is infinitely disappointing.

I'm inclined to say that the special features person has to be wrong or forgot to read the lore and by the game it will be retconed.  If it isn't and that is truly the best Orlais has to offer I likely won't be playing the game until people mod in a true Orlais.

The grand cathedral is supposed to be IN Val Royeux and that thing is clearly many miles away from any other civilization.  Plus people from all over the world are supposed to have remarked on the beauty and elegance of the Grand Cathdral, and that thing wouldn't even pass for Ferelden or Kirkwall beautiful especially when Lilliana has already remarked how Ferelden is supposed to be dull and less elegant than Orlais.

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm completely unsurprised with Orlais bragging about itself to make it look nicer than it really is. In fact, I'm not entirely sure Orlais does much else, aside from conquer.

Well they also talk about how tyranny and oppression by them is better than Tevintar rule, despite the fact they've let some of the greatest improvements tevintar made to the land crumble away when all they had to do was maintaince work and not build the whole thing,

Modifié par Anvos, 25 août 2012 - 08:51 .

[Vinkhor]

To me, this Cassandra character was the female version of Fenris.
C:" Arghh!!! it`s your fault, mage!!:
Mage: "But, but...i didn`t do anything wrong!",
C: "It doesn`t matter, you`r a mage so it`s your damn fault!!"

Being angry all the time is not a problem just by itself, but using " i hate mages, because the murderers of my family were mages", as the single argument for her opinions, it just makes her look bad...or incredible stupid. The murderers were also humans, why not hate all humans?

Now, about the seekers. Let me see if i got this right. The templars are no longer considered to be a solution for the "mage problem", after what happened in Kirkwall. So, the chantry, in its incommensurate genius and brilliance, worthy of envy, decides to replace them with what? With other ...templars?... now called "seekers"?!?. Now, this will definitely work better. This upgraded type of templars are incorruptible and will only do the Maker`s will. .......Chantry acolyte: - " Yes, yes, your divine grace, marvellous solution, but if this fails too?". Grand cleric: - " Don`t worry, we took this into consideration, if this fails we will make a new brand of fresh tier 3 of templars. We even have their regular uniforms designs ready, with a big "NO MAGE!" inscribed, in pink dye, on their shinny cuirasses."

After seeing how the mages fight in this movie, especially in the beginning, when Casandra cuts some mages down, who hopelessly " pew, pew" on her.. ..i cannot but ask myself this: Why bother locking up mages in towers? They are pathetic, not dangerous, judging by what the movie shows.

[Heather Cline]

glad i never watched the movie.

[obZen DF]

The movie is so wrong in so many ways. But I still enjoyed it. But, I really liked the art-style too. Maybe that's a factor for me enjoying it.

[Androme]

 I actually just watched it myself, and what I'm mostly disappointed about is the Mages melee weapons and THEIR FISTS (WTF???????) instead of magic

[Chiramu]

Androme wrote...

 I actually just watched it myself, and what I'm mostly disappointed about is the Mages melee weapons and THEIR FISTS (WTF???????) instead of magic

Getting the mages to fight with their magic would've been a tremendous strain on their writing and animating abilities...Don't push the Japanese, they find it hard to write a sci-fi plot with actual science involved...

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Lobselvith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Devil's advocate... you only ever hear blood mages say that.

Duncan argues that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to combat the darkspawn, to the mage protagonist.

Duncan isn't a moral authority either. Steal around Ostagar and he's fine with you being a pickpocket and just says not to get caught. He also kills Jory, leaves the Couslands to die, and will not say one word to the Denerim guards about how the Arl's son kidnapped, murdered, and attempted (or did if you choose so) rape to elves.

He's an extremely pragmatic cold-hearted 'ends justify the means' kinda guy. 

Duncan is an example of a non-mage citing an example of blood mages who use their abilities to help save the world from the darkspawn. If you are addressing blood mages, we see not all of them are the caricatures seen in Dragon Age II. The unnamed female blood mage can be recruited to fight the darkspawn because of how useful her abilities are against darkspawn. The mage protagonist can even learn blood magic as part of the narrative, and use those abilities to help stop the Fifth Blight. Even blood mage Hawke uses his blood magic to kill an Act III nemesis who has killed innocent people.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

In a pure story based sense the only blood mage who isn't chaotically evil in two games, multiple DLCs, and an expansion were Merrill and Jowan.

Merrill, like many characters in DA2 had an unhealthy obsession. Her obsession just happened to be a demon possessed statue that was tricking her into repairing a gateway for the demon to leave its cage and possess Merrill. So Merrill's more... naively incapable of realizing the terrible choices she's making. And her blood magic usage probably falls into that category.

I didn't realize abomination Marethari was a source of trusted information, especially since there's absolutely no evidence to back up her claim. I'd say Marethari letting a demon loose, trying to kill Hawke and Merrill as an abomination, and endangering the clan by warning absolutely no one means the fault lies with Marethari, but that's how I see it.

Foolsfolly wrote...

So while some characters rationalize that blood magic is simply a source of power and no different than any other magic. There is still a very large percentage of blood mages we've met that are simply insane, turn into abominations, or build Frankenstein-esque monsters for the lulz.

Like Decimus, who thinks Merrill is a templar, or Tahrone, who is an unstable, raving lunatic. I didn't realize making mages into caricatures was proof of anything other than inept writing.

Foolsfolly wrote...

At best blood magic is highly corrosive to your mental well-being; something only the strongest of wills could possibly use without it destroying them. At worst blood magic is absolutely evil and even when rarely used it will destroy you.

This is wrong. It doesn't destroy the mage protagonist who becomes a blood mage; it doesn't destroy Merrill; it doesn't seem to mean the automatic destruction of Grey Wardens who use blood magic.

[Foolsfolly]

This is wrong. It doesn't destroy the mage protagonist who becomes a blood mage; it doesn't destroy Merrill; it doesn't seem to mean the automatic destruction of Grey Wardens who use blood magic

Please it doesn't destroy you because you've got plot armor. And the game doesn't notice or care if you're a Blood Mage or not.

Merrill on the other hand loses her clan, loses her keeper/mother figure, and then if you defend her you slaughter her clan. All because she made a deal with a demon to be a blood mage.

[Blacklash93]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 The blood mages were mostly a dragon cult

They were? I just thought they were trapping dragons and using them as weapons, not that they worshipped them.

For the OP, most blood mages are evil because they were corrupt and power-hungry in the first place or at least living under circumstances where such power would likely drive them to some sort of superiority-complex over us feeble muggles. Blood magic is the ultimate form of raw power in the DA world as it happens.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 août 2012 - 10:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Lobselvith8 wrote...

This is wrong. It doesn't destroy the mage protagonist who becomes a blood mage; it doesn't destroy Merrill; it doesn't seem to mean the automatic destruction of Grey Wardens who use blood magic

Please it doesn't destroy you because you've got plot armor. And the game doesn't notice or care if you're a Blood Mage or not.

Some Wardens are blood mages, so that excuse simply doesn't work.

Also, Wynne was supposed to confront the mage protagonist about being a blood mage, but the scene was disabled because it bugged the Landsmeet if you killed Greagoir.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Merrill on the other hand loses her clan, loses her keeper/mother figure, and then if you defend her you slaughter her clan. All because she made a deal with a demon to be a blood mage.

That's funny, I thought Marethari screwing up was Marethari's fault; I didn't realize it was Merrill's fault by the transitive property of being a blood mage. I guess Marethari letting a demon loose and grown adults committing attempted murder is Merrill's fault because she knows blood magic.

[Foolsfolly]

I just realized we've had this argument before, LobselVith8, in one of the Merrill threads.

Continue to defend Merrill and Blood Magic. For fun here's Mike Laidlaw saying Blood magic is inherently evil and will twist and corrupt you over time. It's around the 4:55 bit on that video.

[Renmiri1]

I think Blood Magic is a matter of self control. It gives you unlimited power... It is only limited by the amount of blood you use. If you are like Merril and only use your own blood, you can do some small stuff, but not what Decimus or other blood mages do, because you would need more blood than what your own body can provide.

The temptation to get more power will be always there and most blood mages quickly opt to get blood from unwilling donors, to fuel their powerful spells. Merril and some others resist that temptation, but the demon will always be there nagging them to take someone else's blood and get power.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 26 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[Saberchic]

I thought this anime was horrible.

I wasn't fond of the art style, but I could have gotten past that if it was a good story. Mages not using their magic (wtf?! really?), Cassandra turning into a super soldier (nobody could hack golems and darkspawn like that and definitely not her as she wasn't trained to take on that kind of adversity), the painfully predictable story... It's just bad, and that's a shame because I really wanted to like it.

As for the Duncan discussion, he was a realist not a cold-hearted bastard. It's fine to have "good morals," but the reality of the situations he was in (Cousland, city elf) was hopeless. He could not have done anything to change them. That doesn't mean he didn't care or feel bad about what happened; it means he simply could not do anything to help.

[Renmiri1]

Saberchic wrote...

As for the Duncan discussion, he was a realist not a cold-hearted bastard. It's fine to have "good morals," but the reality of the situations he was in (Cousland, city elf) was hopeless. He could not have done anything to change them. That doesn't mean he didn't care or feel bad about what happened; it means he simply could not do anything to help.

Duncan was a pickpocket himself, growing up as an orphan in Orlais. He was on Death Row when he was conscripted into the Wardens. I think this is why he has a soft spot for people in trouble 

[ananna21]

A ten year old girl having the no ill effect when drinking dragon blood then summoning a wave of them later on. Another case of your kind killed my family I hate you all. Orlais being so lifeless. No subtlety when fighting just Cassandra eviscerating all in her way. If cassandra those fighting skills but that negative a personality then she would only need a person for their charisma.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I just realized we've had this argument before, LobselVith8, in one of the Merrill threads.

Continue to defend Merrill and Blood Magic. For fun here's Mike Laidlaw saying Blood magic is inherently evil and will twist and corrupt you over time. It's around the 4:55 bit on that video.

Gaider also claimed atheism doesn't exist, and Laidlaw said Kirkwall would be shaped around Hawke's actions. If they say something that is factually incorrect, that doesn't make them right.

If your biggest argument is that Merrill using blood magic is an example of how bad it is because other people did terrible things outside her control, I don't see any point in vilifying blood magic. Marethari making an asinine decision isn't Merrill's fault, and neither is the example of the Dalish trying to murder Merrill and Hawke in cold blood.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 août 2012 - 06:04 .

[tiberius_adamantine]

blood magic is only a tool to be used and i agree that it is a matter of self control. It makes no difference if you use magic or a weapon, whether you abuse it or not comes down to the individual. The blood mages in awakening didn't seem dangerous, until you hunted them for no other crime than being out of the circle's control. The blood mages in broken circle did what they did in a desperation to be free, as did the mages (as anders successfully pointed out) in DAII (the ones you are forced to hunt for Meredith). Blood magic has proven to be important over the centuries in DA for many reasons. Although it can be abused, it is also a magic of sacrifice that can be necessary to achieve otherwise impossible things. It means that the user might need to sacrifice from themself to achieve some high end goal.

Modifié par tiberius_adamantine, 26 août 2012 - 10:23 .

[Vinkhor]

Maybe blood magic is not inherently evil, but for sure is not a good type of magic. Just look at how Orsino is loosing control over it and attacks your party even if you support the mages. And he was not a junior in magic practice, he was first enchanter. While i admit that maybe exceptional individuals could control it, many mages can`t and this makes it an unreliable form of magic. I would really feel uneasy in blood mage`s company, knowing that they can turn on me unwillingly and despite that i`m their ally.

"Blood mages in awakening didn`t seem dangerous", Nobody said that blood mages are psychopaths who attack everyone on sight for no reason.