82 réponses à ce sujet

[Rokayt]

I have noticed something strange..... There isn't anything in the weapon files that seems to specify anything about the hipfire penalty.

[peddroelm]

Rokayt wrote...

I have noticed something strange..... There isn't anything in the weapon files that seems to specify anything about the hipfire penalty.

And yet most sniper rifles have a different value for it  .. I've updated op with Indra

[Rokayt]

Yeah, I have updated my last post on possible causes of it.... However, it is all very cryptic.

Note: I modded "Weapon mod colors" To always give me a vibrant pink, on the Raptor.

Modifié par Rokayt, 18 août 2012 - 08:03 .

[WestLakeDragon]

50% for the Indra? That is the last time I hipfire that thing.

[rmccowen]

Rokayt wrote...

Edit: I quickly datamined the sniperifles.

I have yet to find a variable which seems to have to do with a damage penalty.

Yeah, I looked and also couldn't find anything.

ZoomAccfirePenalty:
The Indras is 0.
The Black widows is 1 Normalized.
The Raptors is 37-37 Normalized.
The Base Sniper model has an assumed Accfirepenalty of .5 Normalized.

I'm not sure what this means, but it presumably corresponds to "accfirepenalty", which is non-zero for most weapons and therefore probably not a good candidate for the hipfire penalty.

The other thing which could be responsible is a Friction.
The Sniper base model Scoping values has a setting which sets the friction, and adhision mutlipliers to 1 while you are scoped...

I think the friction and adhesion multipliers control aiming speed. It's one of the things changed by the scope mods for other weapon categories, and I've never noticed a hipfire penalty for (e.g.) scoped pistols or ARs.

[Rokayt]

rmccowen wrote...

The other thing which could be responsible is a Friction.
The Sniper base model Scoping values has a setting which sets the friction, and adhision mutlipliers to 1 while you are scoped...

I think the friction and adhesion multipliers control aiming speed. It's one of the things changed by the scope mods for other weapon categories, and I've never noticed a hipfire penalty for (e.g.) scoped pistols or ARs.

Other then that. There are no unknown weapon variables that I can point out off the top of my head that i dont have some clue as to what they do in coalesced....

The thing with friction, is that it apparently varies when some variable changes, which seems to be range (The Friction values are clustered with the range values on all weapon base models.)

This implies that friction gets better/worse as distantce gets worse.

Perhaps it means that the hipfire penalty is ranage based?

The Base weapon class has friction enabled, but friction range scaling is DISABLED. Shotguns and snipers are the only weapons that deviate from this pattern.

In fact, it appears that snipers friction range scaling factor is weaker then a shotguns friction range scaling.

Modifié par Rokayt, 18 août 2012 - 08:13 .

[rmccowen]

Rokayt wrote...

Other then that. There are no unknown weapon variables that I can point out off the top of my head that i dont have some clue as to what they do in coalesced....

The thing with friction, is that it apparently varies when some variable changes, which seems to be range (The Friction values are clustered with the range values on all weapon base models.)

This implies that friction gets better/worse as distantce gets worse.

Perhaps it means that the hipfire penalty is ranage based?

The Base weapon class has friction enabled, but friction range scaling is DISABLED. Shotguns and snipers are the only weapons that deviate from this pattern.

In fact, it appears that snipers friction range scaling factor is weaker then a shotguns friction range scaling.

I'm still leaning toward friction and adhesion as variables that describe aiming performance, but I admit I'm mostly fumbling around in the dark.

But there are certainly variables that affect weapon performance but do not appear in the Coalesced files, because there's no good candidate for the variable that describes whether a weapon is automatic, burst, or semi-automatic. I'm guessing the hipfire penalty works like that--hidden or hardcoded somewhere else.

[Rokayt]

rmccowen wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Other then that. There are no unknown weapon variables that I can point out off the top of my head that i dont have some clue as to what they do in coalesced....

The thing with friction, is that it apparently varies when some variable changes, which seems to be range (The Friction values are clustered with the range values on all weapon base models.)

This implies that friction gets better/worse as distantce gets worse.

Perhaps it means that the hipfire penalty is ranage based?

The Base weapon class has friction enabled, but friction range scaling is DISABLED. Shotguns and snipers are the only weapons that deviate from this pattern.

In fact, it appears that snipers friction range scaling factor is weaker then a shotguns friction range scaling.

I'm still leaning toward friction and adhesion as variables that describe aiming performance, but I admit I'm mostly fumbling around in the dark.

But there are certainly variables that affect weapon performance but do not appear in the Coalesced files, because there's no good candidate for the variable that describes whether a weapon is automatic, burst, or semi-automatic. I'm guessing the hipfire penalty works like that--hidden or hardcoded somewhere else.

BurstFireCount seems to have something to do with it.
At least.... It makes guns Burst fire.

[Pho Kadat]

peddroelmz wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

rockthatwood wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

rockthatwood wrote...

it's a real shame that you did all of this testing to be wrong.

Dude - my tests are done IN GAME - I could argue their correctness with Bioware devs ..But the wiki  ?  Please  tons of innacurate information there ...

alright well why don't you read the other comment that invalidated your post.

Oh man, the wiki.  I have TRIED to correct bad information on the wiki before, only to have mods/editors change it back.  When I got into a discussion with them about it, they said that only information confirmed by BW could be posted.  Nothing else.  So if something wrong ends up on there, it stays on there.

It's ridiculous, I won't even waste my time visiting it anymore.  

Lol - I had a bioware dev confirm my weapon damage formula for ME2  on the wiki - and they still took it down - overly technical and useless they said 

And yet they allow player notes, which is nothing more than opinion, to coexist with facts on the MP character customization page. I apologize for getting off the subject, but their actions tend to violate their own dogma listed in the "What can administrators not do?" section of the Administrators page.

Sorry for mini-rant. Please continue legitmate discussion.

[Morning Elf]

This is very cool. Thanks, OP. I love threads like this.

[Credit2team]

FYI-raptor has 0 hipfire penalty

[rockthatwood]

just did my own tests and had VERY interesting results.

krogan vanguard with no points in krogan battlemaster (no weapon damage bonus)
raptor X - no mods
stronghold package V gear

shot 10 assault troopers in the body unscoped. each shot on each target did 1 bar of damage.
shot 10 different assault troopers with scoped shots. each shot on each target did 1 bar of damage.

now here's the interesting part, which i was able to successfully pull off on EVERY trooper i killed.

when they had one bar of health left and i shot them in the groin, their heads exploded as if i got a headshot. seriously. try it yourself.

but anyways, the damage of the raptor X scoped and uncscoped was equal and consistent throughout 20 troopers.

[Tybo]

Nice work peddroelmz. Thanks for the info.

To rockthatwood. What level are you playing on, that 1 raptor shot will do 1 bar of damage? Bronze troopers have 750, and silver has 1125. The first, you should kill in 8 shots. The second should take you 12. In addition, the rounding by the bar system makes it difficult to find such small differences. Consider me skeptical.

Then take into account that you are disputing the findings of peddroelmz, who has previously done many tests to derive game mechanics, and I flat out don't believe it.

[Tybo]

Rokayt wrote...


BurstFireCount seems to have something to do with it.
At least.... It makes guns Burst fire.

You'd think so, right?  But according to my understanding of some posts by Cyonan, that only changes the fire properties of guns that are already burst firing.  Changing it doesn't make a non-burst firing weapon into a burst firing one.

[Pho Kadat]

@rockthatwood: Using stat bars only as a determining factor is folly. With 750 health, the each damage bar of the Assault Troopers is 75 points. A shot that takes off one bar can do anything in between 76 to 149 points of damage. A Raptor X, unmodded, at max damage falls in between these two values. An unscoped shot may have done full damage, or as little as 76 points. Without extrapolation between varying enemy health bars, we may never know.

Personally, I'm running with the theory that "Not Regular Weapon=TRUE" is the determining factor of whether a SR has hipfire penalty or not.

Modifié par Pho Kadat, 18 août 2012 - 09:32 .

[Shotgun Nova]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

rockthatwood wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

rockthatwood wrote...

it's a real shame that you did all of this testing to be wrong.

Dude - my tests are done IN GAME - I could argue their correctness with Bioware devs ..But the wiki  ?  Please  tons of innacurate information there ...

alright well why don't you read the other comment that invalidated your post.

AFAIK, Adhok has said wrong information a few times on this forum. Can't be bothered to find the threads, but he was wrong. So not a good source of info too.

An example.

OT: Anyway, good work, OP. I wonder about other SR's in the game, looking forward about the Javelin.

[rockthatwood]

here's the problem with your argument.

let's say the raptor did 100 damage each shot. if each health bar was 75 points of health, then on the third shot, i would take out 2 bars ([100-75]x3)

but, each shot (scoped and hip-fire) only did one bar of damage. so if what you say is true (that anything less than 150 would only do one bar of damage), then it would mean that an assault trooper would have 800 or more health, which they don't.

[Fox-snipe]

PrebuiltTub wrote...

DHR107 wrote...

The hip penalties are stupid...

It's not like the bullet is going slower when it comes out of the barrel when it isn;t scoped :/

Yea, they shouldve just added a huge accuracy debuff in hipfire like every other game

Can't tell if that's sarcastic or not, but the hip-fire penalty is supposed to take that role itself.  Unless you want the gun mechanics in ME3 to purposefully make you miss 99 out of every 100 shots from a hip-fired sniper.  It's not so much an accuracy issue anyway (single-shot weapons don't generally vary in accuracy or, more correctly, spread), it's more about how you'd rip your arms off if you weren't correctly holding the weapon.

Very few games correctly take into account where someone was shot when determining the level of incapacitation anyway; being shot in the foot for example would drop you on your ass screaming but you'd still be able to fire your weapon just as easily.  Yet you can easily whittle down & kill an enemy by shooting their toes.

In the same way you could, in theory, survive a .50 cal shot to your leg (not that you'd want to).  Shoot an enemy in the leg with a Widow though and they're instantly dead.  Hip-fire penalty helps balance that difference out.  And yes I realize this contradicts what I said above about it not being "so much an accuracy issue," but that's a difference between reality & video game.  In real-life, your sniper will fire exactly where it's supposed to with its single shot.  What will vary is where you are aiming that precision weapon, which might be someone's foot.  Since the game does't care about that though, you get a raw damage penalty instead.

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 18 août 2012 - 10:14 .

[Pho Kadat]

Well, answer me this, how many shots did it take to kill a trooper? If each shot only took off one block each time, then you'd have to take 10 shots, scoped or unscoped.

[rockthatwood]

Pho Kadat wrote...

Well, answer me this, how many shots did it take to kill a trooper? If each shot only took off one block each time, then you'd have to take 10 shots, scoped or unscoped.

yes, 10 shots on each. never realized how bad the raptor really is.

[Pho Kadat]

rockthatwood wrote...

Pho Kadat wrote...

Well, answer me this, how many shots did it take to kill a trooper? If each shot only took off one block each time, then you'd have to take 10 shots, scoped or unscoped.

yes, 10 shots on each. never realized how bad the raptor really is.

In that case, the only thing I can think of is that the Raptor's attributes on the stats sheet are incorrect. However, having discerned more information from your test, you've given strength to your argument about the Raptor's hipfire penalty being zero.

Modifié par Pho Kadat, 18 août 2012 - 10:28 .

[rockthatwood]

Pho Kadat wrote...

rockthatwood wrote...

Pho Kadat wrote...

Well, answer me this, how many shots did it take to kill a trooper? If each shot only took off one block each time, then you'd have to take 10 shots, scoped or unscoped.

yes, 10 shots on each. never realized how bad the raptor really is.

In that case, the only thing I can think of is that the Raptor's attributes on the stats sheet are incorrect. However, having discerned more information from your test, you've given strength to your argument about the Raptor's hipfire penalty being zero.

that may be the case then.

but yes i do believe i am right with the 0 penalty for raptor. i just tested with the widow X and a scoped shot killed a trooper. an unscoped shot left 3 bars. so the hipfire penalty does exist, just the raptor negates it because it is an assault rifle/sniper hybrid.

about to test the kishock.

EDIT: i tested this on bronze where troopers have 750 health. the widow does 1084 damage. so there definitely IS a damage reduction on this gun from hip-firing.

also, before i test the kishock i'd like to add that it does only a sliver more damage than the widow: 1210

Modifié par rockthatwood, 18 août 2012 - 10:40 .

[Adhok42]

Same FQI

Same map, same enemy. same difficulty

Weapon: Widow X

3 scoped body shots on troopers did not kill them.

1 unscoped headshot on a Guaridan killed it.

2 scoped shots on Guardians did NOT kill them.

Out of 5 shots on an atlas, 3 were unscoped, 2 were scoped. Both only took out 1 bar of shield per shot.

I've got plenty of other shots that killed unscoped and plenty of other scoped shots that did not kill on each difficulty.

Right now I'm willing to say it's inconclusive but that doesn't mean there IS a DR on unscoped shots.

Topic is still invalid.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Fox-snipe wrote...

PrebuiltTub wrote...

DHR107 wrote...

The hip penalties are stupid...

It's not like the bullet is going slower when it comes out of the barrel when it isn;t scoped :/

Yea, they shouldve just added a huge accuracy debuff in hipfire like every other game

Can't tell if that's sarcastic or not, but the hip-fire penalty is supposed to take that role itself.  Unless you want the gun mechanics in ME3 to purposefully make you miss 99 out of every 100 shots from a hip-fired sniper.  It's not so much an accuracy issue anyway (single-shot weapons don't generally vary in accuracy or, more correctly, spread), it's more about how you'd rip your arms off if you weren't correctly holding the weapon.

Very few games correctly take into account where someone was shot when determining the level of incapacitation anyway; being shot in the foot for example would drop you on your ass screaming but you'd still be able to fire your weapon just as easily.  Yet you can easily whittle down & kill an enemy by shooting their toes.

In the same way you could, in theory, survive a .50 cal shot to your leg (not that you'd want to).  Shoot an enemy in the leg with a Widow though and they're instantly dead.  Hip-fire penalty helps balance that difference out.  And yes I realize this contradicts what I said above about it not being "so much an accuracy issue," but that's a difference between reality & video game.  In real-life, your sniper will fire exactly where it's supposed to with its single shot.  What will vary is where you are aiming that precision weapon, which might be someone's foot.  Since the game does't care about that though, you get a raw damage penalty instead.

In reality, a .50 cal bullet in your leg would rip it off your body, making it fly on dozens of meters. You cannot survive that.  

And every game (realistic or arcade) have featured loss of accuracy while hipfiring, but without damage loss.

In reality, if you don't aim down the sight, you'll be less accurate, but you'll still deal the same damage.

That's why hipfire penalty is retarded and should be scrapped.

Also, Indra with a 50% hipfire penalty. 

[rockthatwood]

Adhok42 wrote...

Same FQI

Same map, same enemy. same difficulty

Weapon: Widow X

3 scoped body shots on troopers did not kill them.

1 unscoped headshot on a Guaridan killed it.

2 scoped shots on Guardians did NOT kill them.

Out of 5 shots on an atlas, 3 were unscoped, 2 were scoped. Both only took out 1 bar of shield per shot.

I've got plenty of other shots that killed unscoped and plenty of other scoped shots that did not kill on each difficulty.

Right now I'm willing to say it's inconclusive but that doesn't mean there IS a DR on unscoped shots.

Topic is still invalid.

perform more controlled, conclusive tests before you post. these are all terrible examples.