142 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylixe]

krullstar wrote...

  There was a good movie many years ago called Assassins starring Antonio Banderas & Sylvester Stallone.  The assassin character played by Antonio Banderas was especially memorable.  He was hilarious, the way he talked, his mindset etc...
The character Zevran is pretty much a carbon copy of that character, so much so that I consider it plagiarism.

Anyone who doubts this, just go watch the movie Assassins.  

Some may see no issues with this, but to me, I found it bothersome.  Having some similarities is fine but not so in your face obvious.

Anyone else notice this?

Uhm..not even remotely close.  Have the movie on DVD and Antonio is a whole lot less annoying than Zev is.

Modifié par Sylixe, 23 décembre 2009 - 06:47 .

[Matthias Umbra]

enderandrew wrote...

The Aedra and Daedra don't mimic any religion on Earth. Saying there are multiple gods, and thusly it is the same as Wicca is a very huge stretch.

My rebuttal, sir:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

[Dahelia]

Matthias Umbra wrote...

enderandrew wrote...

The Aedra and Daedra don't mimic any religion on Earth. Saying there are multiple gods, and thusly it is the same as Wicca is a very huge stretch.

My rebuttal, sir:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

Holy crap...wait can we say that??? That is good.

[David Gaider]

enderandrew wrote...
I did want to add that I am very disappointed that certain nations in Thedas borrow from Earth's nations in accents.

Orleans is an area in France. France is considered by many to be the fashion capital of the world. Orlesians in Dragon Age have French accents and fixate on fashion.

This was a failing of the Star Wars prequels. The original trilogy had aliens speaking in alien languages. Lucas wanted to make the prequels more kid friendly, and not require reading subtitles. So now aliens borrow accents from Earth, and it made many people uncomfortable, even screaming racism.

Well, I'll point out that Thedas is a fictionalized version of medieval Europe. None of the nations are directly analogous to European nations, but they all borrow heavily from our own history. The idea is that this is what our own world might have been like, if we had magic and elves and dwarves and so forth. You may not like the idea, but it was not done accidentally.

As for the criticism against the Star Wars prequels, I believe the racism you're referring to was with regards to the mannerisms given to the Gungan race -- which some thought to be too stereotypically "black". Nationalities such as French or Spanish are not races, and are available as a shorthand in the same way that elves or dwarves are (and certainly easier on our poor voice actors than making an accent up from whole cloth, let me tell you), and while someone may not like their presence such accents cannot constitute racism.

[enderandrew]

Aedra and Daedra don't have a supreme being. There is also not a single creator. Zoroastrianism is strongly predicated on the principle of a single, supreme creator.



Zoroastrian gods are still gods. Aedra are magical, yet mortal creatures, and not gods.



Zoroastrianism doesn't have a divide of Aedra and Daedra. The Zoroastrianist calendar is based on their pantheon.



I'm currently writing a novel whose plot centers around Zoroastrianism, La Regla Lucumi and the Talmudic Academies in Babylonia. You're really talking to the wrong person here.



How in the world are they similar? Oh wait, they aren't.

[Dark83]

What about Chinese mythology? We have all these Immortals that are nonetheless killable, the division of demons and... faeries? Man, trying to mentally translate names is tough. Forget it.

[enderandrew]

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/race



1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2. a population so related.

3. Anthropology.

a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and ******, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.

5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.



The French are a race. There were also complaints about Watto the Toydarian representing a Shyster, and evoking ideas of Anti-Semitism. There are entire books breaking down racist tones in The Phantom Menace.



But then again Lucas went on record saying Imperials should all have British accents to evoke feelings of Americans fighting against the British Empire, and I believe on one commentary track, he blatantly took the name Stormtrooper to suggest they were **** troops.

[JaegerBane]

krullstar wrote...

  There was a good movie many years ago called Assassins starring Antonio Banderas & Sylvester Stallone.  The assassin character played by Antonio Banderas was especially memorable.  He was hilarious, the way he talked, his mindset etc...
The character Zevran is pretty much a carbon copy of that character, so much so that I consider it plagiarism.

Anyone who doubts this, just go watch the movie Assassins.  

Some may see no issues with this, but to me, I found it bothersome.  Having some similarities is fine but not so in your face obvious.

Anyone else notice this?

Frankly he reminded me of a dark fantasy version of Puss In Boots from Shrek 2. Especially when he was talking about 'Og'eres'

[David Gaider]

enderandrew wrote...
The French are a race. There were also complaints about Watto the Toydarian representing a Shyster, and evoking ideas of Anti-Semitism. There are entire books breaking down racist tones in The Phantom Menace.

But then again Lucas went on record saying Imperials should all have British accents to evoke feelings of Americans fighting against the British Empire, and I believe on one commentary track, he blatantly took the name Stormtrooper to suggest they were **** troops.

*I* certainly don't think of nationalities being the equivalent of races, but it seems the dictionary proves me wrong. Fair enough. Regardless, isn't the point you're making that the use of the accents in the Star Wars prequels was as negative stereotypes? I don't think we do that. Not liking the presence of real-world accents doesn't make them racist.

Modifié par David Gaider, 23 décembre 2009 - 07:26 .

[dwwilson57]

Let's not forget Mudflap and Skids.

[enderandrew]

I don't believe DA:O uses any negative stereotypes.



I've been waiting for years to play this game, because I wanted to see Bioware create an original world. You did so as well to an extent with Jade Empire, but that world was clearly an homage to wushu films.



I enjoy many aspects of Thedas. I went to a Barnes and Noble to try and buy the novels this past week, only to discover they don't keep them in stock in the stores.



But I was disappointed by the clear parallels to Earth nations. I feel they just take me out of the world, where I wanted more fantasy immersion.



Perhaps expansions and sequels can focus more on the contrast as opposed to the comparison. Perhaps we can learn more about the Qunari?

[Matthias Umbra]

enderandrew wrote...

Aedra and Daedra don't have a supreme being. There is also not a single creator. Zoroastrianism is strongly predicated on the principle of a single, supreme creator.

Zoroastrian gods are still gods. Aedra are magical, yet mortal creatures, and not gods.

Zoroastrianism doesn't have a divide of Aedra and Daedra. The Zoroastrianist calendar is based on their pantheon.

I'm currently writing a novel whose plot centers around Zoroastrianism, La Regla Lucumi and the Talmudic Academies in Babylonia. You're really talking to the wrong person here.

How in the world are they similar? Oh wait, they aren't.

The duality of "good" vs "evil" (I used quotes since it's not that cut and dry in the Elder Scrolls).  Also, Akatosh is considered to be the greatest of the Aedra, and they are certainly godlike.  The Daedra have a leader since they're all independent, but Mehrunes Dagon seems to be the most powerful.  There are also possible connections to Hinduism to be made.  My point is that something can be an inspiration to another medium and not wholly the same.  It's not like Bethesda just completely made up this style of cosmology all on their own.  Afterall, as human beings, we are influenced by the cultures that we are exposed to.  That's why, in all Sci-Fi works, the aliens seem to culturally adhere to something that is within the sphere of human understanding because it's very hard for human beings to explain something outside of our understanding (other than saying it's completely alien to us, of course).  Personally, I think you just have a gripe with the cultures being based off the real world and just feel like debating for the sake of debating.  That's why I replied to this thread, I enjoy a good debate every now and then.

[bzombo]

and so a potentially amusing topic becomes a nerd rage topic on copying other nations or geographic regions irl into a fantasy game. all games do it to various degrees. is it worth arguing over? now there's a line in the sand of how much a developer can use real life inlfuences in video games? ugh.

[addiction21]

OMG there was something tickling my lip and I pulled on it. Dear lord I wish you all could see the size and length of this nose hair!!!



Oh ya, I also see people have been posting youtube clips after me.... your plagiarizing me and I expect my royalty waffles in the mail by the end of the year.

[enderandrew]

While ultimately you can argue that anything has some similarities with something else, and that nothing is ultimately 100% original. However, there are degrees of similarity. I feel DA:O is too derivative.

[bzombo]

enderandrew wrote...

While ultimately you can argue that anything has some similarities with something else, and that nothing is ultimately 100% original. However, there are degrees of similarity. I feel DA:O is too derivative.

and as we know from the economic crisis, derivatives are bad.

[David Gaider]

enderandrew wrote...
I enjoy many aspects of Thedas. I went to a Barnes and Noble to try and buy the novels this past week, only to discover they don't keep them in stock in the stores.

Well that's too bad. I've seen the first novel in stores here, still, though you can get them from Amazon too (if you're not averse). The real-world parallels are still there, mind you, if not the accents (I don't believe in phonetically transliterating accents -- that's just silly-making).

But I was disappointed by the clear parallels to Earth nations. I feel they just take me out of the world, where I wanted more fantasy immersion.

Whereas I don't think such parallels are mutually exclusive to an immersive fantasy world. I often find that fantasy cultures end up being a series of traits, often exaggerated, and I lose the feeling of them being a culture. Do we need to use real-world cultures? Not always, no, but I think they can be a good starting point. I guess there we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps expansions and sequels can focus more on the contrast as opposed to the comparison. Perhaps we can learn more about the Qunari?

One of the advantages of making a world like this, one that we own, is that we can take it where we want to. One of the pleasures of building your own sandcastle, after all, is getting to kick it down. There's lots of places we can go in the future that might please you as being more markedly different to our world -- the Qunari are certainly a possibility.

[AndreaDraco]

I just ordered the two novels from Play.com and they should arrive in a week or two (snow notwithstanding). Can't wait to read them



My two cents on the parallelisms: I love them, because they make the setting familiar enough for me to feel confident about it, without loosing the chance to surprise me with some totally peculiars details. I think that it's really what works best

[Dasim4]

Yea Zevran also makes me think of the cat from Shrek. Same voice, same comic relief, same lack of ability. Acts tough but is really a softie at heart. Never saw the movie mentioned by the OP though but Zev's voice does sound a lot like Banderas.

[AntiChri5]

Most big bookshops these days will order books in (sometimes from overseas) for you if they don't have it in stock. Waiting for a call from angus and robinson here so i can read DA books. Come on....make it a christmas present....

[Dark83]

I have to say that familiarities are an excellent storytelling shorthand. You immediately get a culture foreign to the major one in the story without having to go into excessive amounts of detail, and you can surprise the audience by deliberately bringing in elements that contradict what they expect, contrasting the fantasy with the source.

[DragonRageGT]

David Gaider wrote...

enderandrew wrote...
The French are a race. There were also complaints about Watto the Toydarian representing a Shyster, and evoking ideas of Anti-Semitism. There are entire books breaking down racist tones in The Phantom Menace.

But then again Lucas went on record saying Imperials should all have British accents to evoke feelings of Americans fighting against the British Empire, and I believe on one commentary track, he blatantly took the name Stormtrooper to suggest they were **** troops.

*I* certainly don't think of nationalities being the equivalent of races, but it seems the dictionary proves me wrong. Fair enough. Regardless, isn't the point you're making that the use of the accents in the Star Wars prequels was as negative stereotypes? I don't think we do that. Not liking the presence of real-world accents doesn't make them racist.

OMG, DG, you are a saint with this much patience!

The French are not a race. The Native Europeans are a race,  the Celts are a race, the Latins are a race, the Barbaric horde are a race... and they all mixed to form the French, which is in his majority Latins, I guess, like the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Italian, plus their colonies like Brazil (where I'm glad there is no "brazilian race" but a healthy mix of many) and the rest of Central and South America. (where unlike in Brazil, they speak a spanish variation.. castellano)

Plus the indians like Maia, Azteca, Inca... I certainly hope that the North Americans of the US are not a "race"... while I still hope those are all sub-races, part of a greater race... called Human...

[Baalzie]

enderandrew wrote...

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/race

This is in no way an official stated correct dictionary of any specific form of the english language, which in it diverse forms are actually quite different.

Maybe if You linked to an OFFICIAL government-issued dicitonary from one of the many english languages out there, it'd have some weight, but as it is, it carries none!
Like using Wikipedia as a proof of absolute certainty of truth.

The diversity and differences between the number of different english languages out there are easiestly seen between American English (US) and British English (UK) And especially the form of British called "Her Majesty the Queens English".
"You is", is for instance according to american grammar rules nowadays correct.
The British word "Cinema" is in american "Movie Theater".
And the American word for the contraption "lift" is "elevator" which is in use in the UK aswell, but in the dictionaries stated as an American English word, not correct British English...

Same goes even more for actual grammatical rules... But that is another story alltogether....

Back on Topic: Damn these MOCK threads are a fun read! 
Bioware folks, You do know he does this from boredom right?

Keep it up!

Modifié par Baalzie, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:26 .

[kingthrall]

its funny that antonio banderas is voice copied into a bisexual elf character

[JackDresden]

krullstar wrote...

  There was a good movie many years ago called Assassins starring Antonio Banderas & Sylvester Stallone.  The assassin character played by Antonio Banderas was especially memorable.  He was hilarious, the way he talked, his mindset etc...
The character Zevran is pretty much a carbon copy of that character, so much so that I consider it plagiarism.

Anyone who doubts this, just go watch the movie Assassins.  

Some may see no issues with this, but to me, I found it bothersome.  Having some similarities is fine but not so in your face obvious.

Anyone else notice this?

I loved the movie Assasins and why I can see some similarity I disagree the character is a carbon copy, by a long way.

We know very little about the background of Antonio Banderas character from the movie other than he is driven to be the best. Zeveran has the whole bought by the crows background, I feel they have in common some diction and that they are both Assasins, hardly a carbon copy IMO.