142 réponses à ce sujet

[REH1967]

mmmbeerz wrote...

People and their crazy ideas of plagiarism. At least this OP got the spelling correct.

Well, that 'pladurism" spelling was unique, I actually clicked on the link to see what it was about.

[aries1001]

What constitutes a race ans what doesn't have long been discussed. I, too, don't see French or German people as entire race for themselves, no matter what the dictionary say. In Ferelden, there are humans, dwarfs and elves; they are the races in Ferelden. The French, Spanish, Italian people are all part of the human species beloning to the mammals.



I certainly have no problem with Bioware choosing to make a game in which they have dreamed up a medieval Europa that had magic. As for the Elder Scrolls games, I don't know enough about the lore in these games to have an opinion on this. I do know that the buildings in Cyrodiil clearly has a similar look to the buildings of ancient Rome. I also know that 'hell' in Oblivion is just another place, or rather 'hell' is a dimension (or more dimensions). One of those dimensions is called Oblivion, I believe. In The Elder Scrolls you also have the Argonians and the Khajits which is races unique to a fantasy setting, I believe?



Thedas is its own setting, the stories told are probably unique to that setting. And devs. and writers get their inspiration from alle over the place. From what I've heard of Zevran he sounds like a mix of Zorro and an assasin found in so many movies.

[jazzy B 3]

aries1001 wrote...

In The Elder Scrolls you also have the Argonians and the Khajits which is races unique to a fantasy setting, I believe?

Cat people and lizard men?  Um, well the numbers of fictional settings containing hominid lizards is immense.  They even crop up in D&D, just play NWN2.  As for cat-like hominids?  Niven's "Ringworld" and other stories set in the same chronology had the Kzin, and I remember reading a Wing Comander book (never played any of the games, was in a second hand book shop when I was 11 or something) that had another race of cat-hominids.  I'm sure there's plenty more examples out there, but those are the two off the top of my head.

@ the G man: I hope you're not too offended by this thread David, it's really amusing watching people foolishly embarass themselves with what they think are pithy comments, like the OPs.  I like the approach you ahve taken with Thedas.

[WhiteRobes]

As regards to plagiarism,

I'd just quote Oscar Wilde,

"Most people are other people"



Of course, these would imply that people plagiarize characteristics like sarcasm, humour and fashion from other people and the society. But we all know that isn't true.



So, either Zhevran is just another bisexual elf assassin, and therefore HAS to have been plagiarized from somewhere, or it is just that there are characteristics of certain fictional archetypes which are common. [Why do all elves have pointy ears? Isn't that plagiarism?]



I'll stick with the second option.

[enderandrew]

Maybe if You linked to an OFFICIAL government-issued dicitonary from one of the many english languages out there, it'd have some weight, but as it is, it carries none!
Like using Wikipedia as a proof of absolute certainty of truth.

The United States doesn't even have an official language for the country. Oxford University has publicly claimed they are the official keepers of the English langauge. Their dictionaries also contain this claim. If they are the official keepers of the English language, let's go by their defintion:

http://www.askoxford.../race_2?view=uk

• noun 1 each of the major divisions of humankind, having
distinct physical characteristics. 2 racial origin or
distinction: rights based on race. 3 a group of people
sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group. 4 a
group of people or things with a common feature. 5 Biology a distinct population
within a species; a subspecies.

The French may not have a significantly biological diversity from the English that is apparent in appearance, but they have a different culture and language. They have a diffierent history than the English. They define themselves as a people. Why wouldn't they classify as a race?

The diversity and differences between the number of different english languages out there are easiestly seen between American English (US) and British English (UK) And especially the form of British called "Her Majesty the Queens English".
"You is", is for instance according to american grammar rules nowadays correct.
The British word "Cinema" is in american "Movie Theater".
And the American word for the contraption "lift" is "elevator" which is in use in the UK aswell, but in the dictionaries stated as an American English word, not correct British English...

Half of my wife's family is up in the savage lands known as Edmonton. I considered at one point moving up there and applying to work for Bioware as a writer, but fear going through the immigration proces, after seeing what hoops my wife had to jump through to immigrate here. It took her 12 years to get a (decidely not green) greencard.

The other half of her family is in England. Having travelled to both locations, I'm quite familiar with the differences in English in different countries. I assume countries like Australia have peculiarities to English as well.

However, race does not appear to have different meanings in England. Neither David nor I live in England.

My wife studied Native American studies. We discuss race at length quite a bit. Her definition as a Canadian does not differ from mine.

And rest assured David, despite my disappointment with the similarities to our Earth, I will order the novels none the less. I probably will grab them off Amazon. If you talk to your publisher, smack them for starting with trade paperbacks. Does anyone actually prefer the more expensive paperback format? I understand those who might prefer a hardcover, but trade paperbacks are just annoying.

[krullstar]

For a person to legitimately weigh in on this discussion, they would need to have:
1. Watched the movie Assassins
2. Played DAO and specifically interacted with Zevran
3. Understand what constitutes plagiarism

Of the these three points, my guess is the vast majority of you have not watched Assassins since it is nearly 15 years old. The remaining ones who have, probably do not understand what defines plagiarism and even if they did, such accusations of plagiarism are highly contested and often end up in court.

To those who think such things never occur - just the other day i4i won a case against Microsoft for patent infringement. The reality is, this sort of thing happens all the time.

Something to consider - I did not play DAO with the intent of picking out such a thing as plagiarism and yet could not help but to notice the incredible similarity between Zevran and the character Miguel Bain from Assassins. This being so, wouldn't the writers/producers of Assassins notice it as well? 

One last point, what about the Superman weapon in the game? Did Bioware get permission to include that or did they simply change enough things as to avoid plagiarism on that front too?  I guess since they named the lady 'Marta' instead of 'Martha' that avoids the issue - from a legal standpoint, taking such liberties can have serious consequences.

Anyway, no disrespect intended to anyone with this post, just telling it how I see it

Modifié par krullstar, 24 décembre 2009 - 01:17 .

[TheRealIncarnal]

You know, I was watching Assassins on TV yesterday also and I thought the same thing. Wonderful idea really to inspiration from that movie, as in no one ever watches it. 

Modifié par TheRealIncarnal, 24 décembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[Sylixe]

krullstar wrote...

For a person to legitimately weigh in on this discussion, they would need to have:
1. Watched the movie Assassins
2. Played DAO and specifically interacted with Zevran
3. Understand what constitutes plagiarism

Of the these three points, my guess is the vast majority of you have not watched Assassins since it is nearly 15 years old. The remaining ones who have, probably do not understand what defines plagiarism and even if they did, such accusations of plagiarism are highly contested and often end up in court.

To those who think such things never occur - just the other day i4i won a case against Microsoft for patent infringement. The reality is, this sort of thing happens all the time.

Something to consider - I did not play DAO with the intent of picking out such a thing as plagiarism and yet could not help but to notice the incredible similarity between Zevran and the character Miguel Bain from Assassins. This being so, wouldn't the writers/producers of Assassins notice it as well? 

One last point, what about the Superman weapon in the game? Did Bioware get permission to include that or did they simply change enough things as to avoid plagiarism on that front too?  I guess since they named the lady 'Marta' instead of 'Martha' that avoids the issue - from a legal standpoint, taking such liberties can have serious consequences.

Anyway, no disrespect intended to anyone with this post, just telling it how I see it

ROFL...You won a case against Microsoft is so damn funny.  The government can't even beat Microsoft in court and you are to have us believe you did? 

BTW..the Superman reference is called a Homage. 

There is still nothing even remotely similar to Antonio and Zev in this game though.

[Lucy Glitter]

Hahahaha Krull you are so full of beep.

[eclaire123]

Skellimancer wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Not this again...

What about this, OP?
....

Oh my god, I laughed so hard

[Dark83]

Sylixe wrote...
ROFL...You won a case against Microsoft is so damn funny.  The government can't even beat Microsoft in court and you are to have us believe you did? 

Er, he said i4i, not "I".
i4i is a company that did indeed win a lawsuit against Microsoft.

[Photon_Man62]

Threads like these are what made Sandal retarded

[Faust6999]

LMAO! Krull still hasn't listed one fact that supports his claim. I saw the end of assassins once. Don't remember it cause it was a while ago. But to be honest i don't think i'd really want to remember a pile of drek like that!. Again krull has not listed anything to give credit to his claim. Such as a line from the movie that is similar (or the same) as one in the game. Until he does, i think we should all continue to mock his every post.

[SymbolicGamer]

It's gotta be the voice. Zevran reminds me of Puss in Boots.

Modifié par SymbolicGamer, 24 décembre 2009 - 08:42 .

[Godeshus]

RageGT wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

enderandrew wrote...
The French are a race. There were also complaints about Watto the Toydarian representing a Shyster, and evoking ideas of Anti-Semitism. There are entire books breaking down racist tones in The Phantom Menace.

But then again Lucas went on record saying Imperials should all have British accents to evoke feelings of Americans fighting against the British Empire, and I believe on one commentary track, he blatantly took the name Stormtrooper to suggest they were **** troops.

*I* certainly don't think of nationalities being the equivalent of races, but it seems the dictionary proves me wrong. Fair enough. Regardless, isn't the point you're making that the use of the accents in the Star Wars prequels was as negative stereotypes? I don't think we do that. Not liking the presence of real-world accents doesn't make them racist.

OMG, DG, you are a saint with this much patience!

The French are not a race. The Native Europeans are a race,  the Celts are a race, the Latins are a race, the Barbaric horde are a race... and they all mixed to form the French, which is in his majority Latins, I guess, like the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Italian, plus their colonies like Brazil (where I'm glad there is no "brazilian race" but a healthy mix of many) and the rest of Central and South America. (where unlike in Brazil, they speak a spanish variation.. castellano)

Plus the indians like Maia, Azteca, Inca... I certainly hope that the North Americans of the US are not a "race"... while I still hope those are all sub-races, part of a greater race... called Human...

Let me split some hairs here. Technically speaking, humans don't have races. We are one species called ****** sapien. The word "race" is an outdated term that no longer has any place in our culture. When representing humans it is layman, ambiguous, and holds no scientific merit whatsoever. Slanted eyes or dark skin is not enough of a difference on a genetic level to constitute a separate race.

Dogs have races as is evident by the vast differences in shapes and sizes, and the fact that not all dogs can breed with all other dogs.

Also, quoting an online dictionary is silly. They are very pedantic, and I have rarely read an entry that I was satisfied with.

Humans can be much more accurately categorized by cultures.

To specifically address your last paragraph, Rage, Neanderthal, it is speculated, may have been a sub-race of ******-sapien. A sub-race is an extremely far genetic stretch that requires one group hundreds of thousands of years of isolation to significantly mutate from the original species, and successful mating between the two is rare, but not impossible. Evolution is funky like that. 

Modifié par Godeshus, 24 décembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[DragonRageGT]

Exactly! The "races" I labeled as such are more of a cultural thing!



And for me it is clear that Antonio Banderas's Assassin is a PLAIDurism on Terence Hill's Trinity!

Lo chiamavano Trinità ... My name is Trinity... yeah, I am that old! Well, I was just a kid when I watched that in a cinema here... which is also portuguese for movie theater!

[krullstar]

Let me split some hairs here. Technically speaking, humans don't have races. We are one species called ****** sapien. The word "race" is an outdated term that no longer has any place in our culture. When representing humans it is layman, ambiguous, and holds no scientific merit whatsoever. Slanted eyes or dark skin is not enough of a difference on a genetic level to constitute a separate race.

Dogs have races as is evident by the vast differences in shapes and sizes, and the fact that not all dogs can breed with all other dogs.

Also, quoting an online dictionary is silly. They are very pedantic, and I have rarely read an entry that I was satisfied with.

Humans can be much more accurately categorized by cultures.

To specifically address your last paragraph, Rage, Neanderthal, it is speculated, may have been a sub-race of ******-sapien. A sub-race is an extremely far genetic stretch that requires one group hundreds of thousands of years of isolation to significantly mutate from the original species, and successful mating between the two is rare, but not impossible. Evolution is funky like that. 

I do not see how your interpretation of the term 'race' is any more valid than an online source.  The world is changing and the internet is literally becoming the information highway.  I think it unwise to dismiss information provided by online dictionaries and rather arrogant to call people silly who do quote them.

Below is how an online dictionary defines Race.  I think your views on race leans towards point number 5.  I can't say you are wrong, but I can say many people do not see race strictly in the biological sense.  

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

4. Humans considered as a group.

5. Biology
a. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
b. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

Modifié par krullstar, 24 décembre 2009 - 10:16 .

[Stanley Woo]

None of which has anything to do with the topic you started.



End of line.