48 réponses à ce sujet

[Amirit]

Was there ever any explanation WHY there are no horses in Ferelden?

In one of banter Oghren asks about horses and Zevran answers "perhaps in Orlay but not here". Why?!

Modifié par Amirit, 24 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[Wulfram]

There are in fact horses in Fereldan - they're in the books - they're just not especially common.

[TEWR]

We'll get people dressed up as horses.

[Amirit]

It still does not answer the question why constant traveler like Warden can not get one. And has to carry all inventory on himself (Shale mentions it).

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

There are in fact horses in Fereldan - they're in the books - they're just not especially common.

Additionally, the Human Noble has seen horses -- no doubt due to his family having owned some horses.

[Wulfram]

I do think it would be a bit odd to go to Orlais with all it's chevaliers and see no horses.

Though I guess the 3 musketeers didn't use muskets much

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We'll get people dressed up as horses.

They host some pretty kinky parties in Orlais, don't they?

[Amirit]

Wulfram wrote...
Though I guess the 3 musketeers didn't use muskets much

They did and a lot. Horses too, btw. 
But all I want is a hint from Lore - why there are no horses for poor travalers?

[Lurklen]

Amirit wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Though I guess the 3 musketeers didn't use muskets much

They did and a lot. Horses too, btw. 
But all I want is a hint from Lore - why there are no horses for poor travalers?

 There isn't one they just didn't put them in the game. One of the arguments at the time was if they were just in the background and not used by the player or anybody else players would notice and complain and if they were going to do that anyway why bother. Personally I thought they should have put them in the background and cutscenes anyway, but oddly they decided not to listen to a random forumite over the people who actually work there.

 For a lore reason horses are expensive and a lot of the maps you play in in the game are very hilly and narrow, so horses wouldn't be much of an advantedge outside of major battles. And most of the battles the player takes part in are in or around major fortifications like Denerim or Ostagar or Kirkwall( which actually had streets wide enough for horses).

[Dintonta]

Amirit wrote...
But all I want is a hint from Lore - why there are no horses for poor travalers?

Here are your answers, I guess...

WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_1
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_2
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_3
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_Brian Chung's post

Being a horses' lover (both the real ones and the virtual ones of nwn1), I wondered as you why there was none in DA:O game.
I surmise there will be none to be seen in DA3 game too, except if the gameplay changes (if areas become larger, like in an open world, I suppose.)
For my own taste, the lack of mounts in general is a really big loss in a Fantasy game, but I perfectly understand the cost & priority argument.

I really would love to get some coconuts, though... 

[Nefla]

I would not like horses to be in DA3. I would prefer BioWare to stop putting new random things and mechanics in the game (such as button=awesome or MP)at the cost of story, character depth and interaction, character customization, unique maps, etc...I'm not saying putting horses in would immediately kill all those things, but it would be one more tangent.

[Dintonta]

Nefla wrote...

I would not like horses to be in DA3. I would prefer BioWare to stop putting new random things and mechanics in the game (such as button=awesome or MP)at the cost of story, character depth and interaction, character customization, unique maps, etc...I'm not saying putting horses in would immediately kill all those things, but it would be one more tangent.

There is no reason why well handled horses would kill those important things.
Many players seem to regard horses as bothersome  ways of transportation, only, while they could be used as story elements, tools for developping interesting form of travel (or fight), and of course, as characters (I don't remember having read a thread where a certain smart mabari hound companion would have been flamed.
TBH, I didn't look for...)
It's rather a personal POV, but I really don't think that horses qualify for the 'random things' classification in your typical Fantasy setting, unless you can imagine a western where some John Wayne or Clint Eastwood heroes would run through the plains, on their two legs, whith useless spurs at their boots clincking all the way...

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I have a question. How did the Fereldens defeat the Orlesians without heavy cavalry? Did the Orlesians not use horses themselves?

[Dintonta]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I have a question. How did the Fereldens defeat the Orlesians without heavy cavalry? Did the Orlesians not use horses themselves?

How I understand the first post I linked from Mr Gaider is : There are horses commonly used in the DAverse they just not appear in game (a bit like : people eat to survive in the DAverse, but you don't see them doing so...)

How they fit into the Orlais/Ferelden's relationship history? I didn't read Mr Gaider's novels so I can't give you an accurate answer...

I suppose both countries use horses. Maybe the Orlesians have been renowned for having a strong heavy cavalry but why should it make them invincible against the Fereldans?

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Dintonta wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I have a question. How did the Fereldens defeat the Orlesians without heavy cavalry? Did the Orlesians not use horses themselves?

How I understand the first post I linked from Mr Gaider is : There are horses commonly used in the DAverse they just not appear in game (a bit like : people eat to survive in the DAverse, but you don't see them doing so...)

How they fit into the Orlais/Ferelden's relationship history? I didn't read Mr Gaider's novels so I can't give you an accurate answer...

I suppose both countries use horses. Maybe the Orlesians have been renowned for having a strong heavy cavalry but why should it make them invincible against the Fereldans?

I just thought heavy charges would be successful (more than not) against infantry without any sort of heavy cavalry. This is what I've heard, that it was very effective. But I have never done serious research on the subject before.

"The Battle of Dyrrhachium in 1081 was an early instance of the familiar medieval cavalry charge; recorded to have a devastating effect by both Norman and Byzantine chroniclers. By the time of the First Crusade in the 1090s, the cavalry charge was being employed widely by European armies." - Wikipedia.

[Dintonta]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Dintonta wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I have a question. How did the Fereldens defeat the Orlesians without heavy cavalry? Did the Orlesians not use horses themselves?

[...]

I suppose both countries use horses. Maybe the Orlesians have been renowned for having a strong heavy cavalry but why should it make them invincible against the Fereldans?

I just thought heavy charges would be successful (more than not) against infantry without any sort of heavy cavalry. This is what I've heard, that it was very effective. But I have never done serious research on the subject before.

"The Battle of Dyrrhachium in 1081 was an early instance of the familiar medieval cavalry charge; recorded to have a devastating effect by both Norman and Byzantine chroniclers. By the time of the First Crusade in the 1090s, the cavalry charge was being employed widely by European armies." - Wikipedia.

I remember myself having read that the medieval heavy cavalry charge could be devastating, but only when properly used : The timing of the charge (which implies the capability of its leader to make himself heard and followed), as well as the ground, and the opponents own tactic were all very important factors.

There are well known exemples of heavy cavalry defeated by other sorts of armies : The sarmats' antic heavy cavalry against the romans' very disciplined heavy infantry ; The slow crusaders' heavy cavalry against the fast moving turkish's light cavalry (in the end of the crusades... The same could be said for russian knights against the mongols) ; The french knights against the english bowmen, and... What could be closer to the Orlesians/Fereldans battle of River Dane, the army of Alexander Nevsky against the teutonic knights on the iced Peipus Lake... (But I am really not sure if it has served as an inspiration source.)

[Foolsfolly]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

If the hints are to be believed, DA3 will be set in Orlais. Orlais' most fearsome military units are thet chevaliers. Chevaliers are cavalry. Cavalry ride horses. This makes a large part of the setting require horses. Will they exist? 

Duke Prosper rode a wyvern in game. All it did was make his unit have more health and increase his speed. The wyvern had a melee attack and he had a ranged attack. I don't see how mounted combat would be vastly different (other than the wyvern climbing around on the wall and all).

They even charged you which hurt like a **** if you didn't get out of the way first.

Some small tinkering and horse mounted combat should be easy as hell to do.

Now having us ride a horse.... maybe in cutscenes. Or maybe in a special hub space where there's no combat or something...

[Foolsfolly]

Dintonta wrote...

Amirit wrote...
But all I want is a hint from Lore - why there are no horses for poor travalers?

Here are your answers, I guess...

WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_1
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_2
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_3
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_Brian Chung's post

Being a horses' lover (both the real ones and the virtual ones of nwn1), I wondered as you why there was none in DA:O game.
I surmise there will be none to be seen in DA3 game too, except if the gameplay changes (if areas become larger, like in an open world, I suppose.)
For my own taste, the lack of mounts in general is a really big loss in a Fantasy game, but I perfectly understand the cost & priority argument.

I really would love to get some coconuts, though... 

Brian Chung won the internet that day.

[Dintonta]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

If the hints are to be believed, DA3 will be set in Orlais. Orlais' most fearsome military units are thet chevaliers. Chevaliers are cavalry. Cavalry ride horses. This makes a large part of the setting require horses. Will they exist? 

Duke Prosper rode a wyvern in game. All it did was make his unit have more health and increase his speed. The wyvern had a melee attack and he had a ranged attack. I don't see how mounted combat would be vastly different (other than the wyvern climbing around on the wall and all).

They even charged you which hurt like a **** if you didn't get out of the way first.

Some small tinkering and horse mounted combat should be easy as hell to do.

Now having us ride a horse.... maybe in cutscenes. Or maybe in a special hub space where there's no combat or something...

"...easy as hell..."   Isn't it an English proverb which precisely says that "Devil hides in details"...
If I have not been mistaken it is how I understood the very informative post from Brian Chung, I linked above...

...Not that I would dislike it if Bioware hunted down all the little imps hidden behind every minute of the process to bring horses to players into their next game... (When NWN_1.69  was very kindly released, I made for myself a Tir-nan-Og cliff area, in the toolset, with a single rideable horse close from the starting point, and spent a full hour feeling really silly while making plenty screenshots of my usual heroes riding along the cliff, the shore and into the sea...

EDIT :
@Foolsfolly
I'm sorry, it took me some time to answer your previous post and I didn't saw you already made the same reasoning, ninja'ing me in the process!
I think too it's nice from both David Gaider and Brian Chung to have given such a full and satisfying explanation about why an element which is really important to some players (like me) was missing.

Modifié par Dintonta, 25 août 2012 - 07:42 .

[Amirit]

Dintonta wrote...

Here are your answers, I guess...

WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_1
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_2
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_David Gaider's post_3
WHY NO Horses in Cutscenes!!!_Brian Chung's post

Thank you    I hate game designers (responsible for rediculos immersion brakes like this for budget-mechanics sake). Hate them with a passion.

[Das Tentakel]

Dintonta wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Dintonta wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I have a question. How did the Fereldens defeat the Orlesians without heavy cavalry? Did the Orlesians not use horses themselves?

[...]

I suppose both countries use horses. Maybe the Orlesians have been renowned for having a strong heavy cavalry but why should it make them invincible against the Fereldans?

I just thought heavy charges would be successful (more than not) against infantry without any sort of heavy cavalry. This is what I've heard, that it was very effective. But I have never done serious research on the subject before.

"The Battle of Dyrrhachium in 1081 was an early instance of the familiar medieval cavalry charge; recorded to have a devastating effect by both Norman and Byzantine chroniclers. By the time of the First Crusade in the 1090s, the cavalry charge was being employed widely by European armies." - Wikipedia.

I remember myself having read that the medieval heavy cavalry charge could be devastating, but only when properly used : The timing of the charge (which implies the capability of its leader to make himself heard and followed), as well as the ground, and the opponents own tactic were all very important factors.

There are well known exemples of heavy cavalry defeated by other sorts of armies : The sarmats' antic heavy cavalry against the romans' very disciplined heavy infantry ; The slow crusaders' heavy cavalry against the fast moving turkish's light cavalry (in the end of the crusades... The same could be said for russian knights against the mongols) ; The french knights against the english bowmen, and... What could be closer to the Orlesians/Fereldans battle of River Dane, the army of Alexander Nevsky against the teutonic knights on the iced Peipus Lake... (But I am really not sure if it has served as an inspiration source.)

Terrain and discipline is all-important, plus a bit of luck. There are actually quite a few examples of knightly armies having the snot beaten out of them by militia infantry armies that held together, by a combination of well-chosen terrain, at least a modicum of discipline and decent equipment, and good leadership.



As for needing horses to travel: Nope. Most people, historically, had to travel by foot. And they did a lot of it. And unless you have remounts, horses are actually slower than humans in the long run.
On military campaigns, infantry tended to overtake cavalry after a certain amount of time.

@Dintonta: Coconuts, yes. That would have been manageable for the DA:O budget, I suppose^_^

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 25 août 2012 - 08:16 .

[Nomen Mendax]

thats1evildude wrote...

I spit on your wish for horses.

I don't know why people like horses so much. They're foul-smelling poop factories who break their legs if they so much as look at a rock in the road. And video games never do a good job of simulating proper horse care; they're always robotic automatons that can go weeks without rest or water.

So are our characters, still it has to be better than the companions in Ultima 7 who had to be fed periodically because they were too stupid to eat.

[Dintonta]

Das Tentakel wrote...
[...]
As for needing horses to travel: Nope. Most people, historically, had to travel by foot. And they did a lot of it...

Yes, Absolutely! It's something that baffles me how some posters I conversed with on other threads seem to consider difficult to accept that we aren't plants in pots, growing in some place entirely dependant on climate and soil, but very resilient bipedal creatures who can go very far rather easily, relying on our own body alone!
(If I'm not mistaken, the whole Earth has been populated by humans much before historic times that way...)

...And unless you have remounts, horses are actually slower than humans in the long run.

True, most of those over-sized bunnies (especially the fast moving species) are very strong but less resistant to fatigue and hardships than humans.
Usually, the people or armies that relied on horses' mobility used remounts.
In which case horses won the race. ;-)

...On military campaigns, infantry tended to overtake cavalry after a certain amount of time.

That's why the best uses of cavalry cited in history books I read were usualy non-frontal attacks (light cavalry using hit-and-run, enveloping, or surprise attack tactics, along with an infantry playing the front 'tank' in the two last cases),
or, they were frontal charges which were so lethal in the first place that the battle didn't last long.

@Dintonta: Coconuts, yes. That would have been manageable for the DA:O budget, I suppose^_^
www.youtube.com/watch

I also loved NWN1 jokes about horses, before those were added to the game (the kobolds discussing how they had eaten all of them, in SoU. Or the whole conversation in Savant's 'Aielund Saga' with a groom who didn't want to show his carriage's horses to the insisting hero, finding incredible pretextes to hide them.)

Modifié par Dintonta, 26 août 2012 - 01:32 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Been asking for horses since DAO... I hope for them, but expect the worst since BW wont even include all the races and their sexes