182 réponses à ce sujet

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

By the way, the fact that this week's multiplayer challenge requires the promotion of characters comes as no surprise to those of us who enjoy the MP game, but have absolutely no interest in the SP game. Promotion of players is worthless to the endings, which remain terrible no matter what your EMS is. Yet, promotion of players feeds more multiplayer gameplay. Thus, the single player game is hurting multiplayer. That explains the nature of the challenge.

I may play this weekend, but I see no reason to promote characters to the single player game. And I'll pass on the challenge.

[Iakus]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

I have now listened to the podcast. I must say, the level of self-deception among the BW folks is high. The premise is that people that don't like something are inherently more noisy. That is the nature of people. Therefore, the fact that there are a lot people expressing dissatisfaction doesn't mean anything because all of the more numerous satisfied people don't speak up.
.

The more complaints, the better the game is.  Because those who speak up are always the minority.  So the more people who speak out against something, the more people there are who are happy with it.

Sounds legit

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

iakus wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

I have now listened to the podcast. I must say, the level of self-deception among the BW folks is high. The premise is that people that don't like something are inherently more noisy. That is the nature of people. Therefore, the fact that there are a lot people expressing dissatisfaction doesn't mean anything because all of the more numerous satisfied people don't speak up.
.

The more complaints, the better the game is.  Because those who speak up are always the minority.  So the more people who speak out against something, the more people there are who are happy with it.

Sounds legit

Yeah.  Who can argue with logic like that?

[3DandBeyond]

Siran wrote...


They are discussing things here, too - it's even indicated next to a thread by a big BioWare logo. Just because they don't discuss your topics does not mean they're not discussing anything. Especially considering how many topics surface again and again that have been discussed in great length and how fast the forums are it's understandable that they can't answer in each thread.

Let me illuminate you then.  The big Bioware logo next to a thread, merely means they may have started one.  For instance, I regularly read and posted in one thread entitled, "Yes, we are listening" which was created in response to criticism about the original endings.  In over 900 pages of discussion in that one thread, I never once saw a reply from any BW person.  I've posted and participated in various threads here, including their EC announcement one and then the newer EC discussion one.  I have seen modded content where mods may say for people to keep on topic and I've sees some mods add a little to the discussion asking something, but it's a rarity.  Only once have I ever seen a post from a BW employee and it was one post from Mike Gamble.  That's in literally thousands of pages in too many threads for me to even remember.

But, thanks for thinking I was talking about one random topic of mine.

And no, I don't care to use twitter much.  That's exactly the point.  Twitter is not a substitute for participation in these forums.

I stand by my statement, that given the content of the podcast, there are some people who shouldn't be disseminating feedback, because she has not been consistent as far as even answering people on twitter.  I'm sorry, yes that's my opinion, and not based on attending a fan event where company people are of course going to be nice to you-because they know you like their work.  Fan events, reddit, twitter, and IGN are not substitutes for discussing things here.


But I do take the point that others have made that she is hemmed in by what she must say-it's just that she may well have been fed info that was incorrect and then couldn't admit she had said it.  I know doing her job must be thankless and all.  I have not had to be a community manager before but I've modded for websites (gaming) as well as a company's gaming website.  It's not easy.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 22 août 2012 - 09:51 .

[Iakus]

Only one Bioware employee has seriously participated in discussions and asked questions about our opinions concerning ME3.

And he's on the Dragon Age team. He was simply posting as a ME fan. Still cool to have him here though.

[sparkyo42]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Oh, and Sparkyo42? The exact quote was. "We know that's what you hoped to see, but sometimes we have other ideas we want to explore - never get to attached to a plot...", in response to someone asking on Twitter why Harbinger was effectively a no-show in ME3. So yeah, tiny little things like the villian of the middle game, the guy who's been set up to have an even larger role in ME3...don't get too attached to minor things like that. *bitter* Guess I shouldn't have gotten too attached to other things, either, like Legion's ME2 characterization. Seriously, how does one go from "Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us." and 'If Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base, Legion calls it an interesting choice, saying humanity was offered everything geth aspire to - unity, understanding and transcendence. Legion adds that Shepard even rejected using the Reapers' technology to achieve victory on humanity's own terms, and comments that the Commander is more like the geth than Legion initially thought' to 'integrating Reaper tech is teh futorz!'?

Cheers for putting that up for me Reth. I really hate that Twitter Canon has now become a major part of the Game.

It seems that everytime I hear about Bioware now it further diminshes them. I mean really you create a Trilogy and go to the trouble of making it import over the 3 games and then start hacking out bits. I get budget/tech/ timerestrictions, I'm not unreasonable but ME3 seems to fall over flaws the more you look at it.

[rapscallioness]

.....well....that podcast was indeed illuminating....

no, Jess, plz---tell us how you really feel.

a few times Chris valiantly tried to rein it in, but Jess was having none of that. there is just so much there.

as far as the whole feeling like psychiatrist's when talking to fans...and...needing a couch for the fans to lay upon...if you're gonna say that part, then you need to tell the whole story.

fans need a couch to lay upon when complaining to you because.....BW has driven them crazy.

I mean, if you're gonna keep it real, keep it all the way real.

sittin' up at reddit sippn' tea and talkin' smack. reddit.

why don't you guys ever do some interviews here? Within the halls of the BSN? Post it up. Chris or Jess conduct it. Wrangle up some wayward game devs that were on their way to the cafeteria and drag them in.

Ask some questions. Take some questions from the BSN. It would be nice. Can we get some perks for being a member of the BSN besides public humiliation? We've got to go over to reddit, or twitter, or facebook, or some game journo.

[Siran]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Let me illuminate you then.  The big Bioware logo next to a thread, merely means they may have started one.  For instance, I regularly read and posted in one thread entitled, "Yes, we are listening" which was created in response to criticism about the original endings.  In over 900 pages of discussion in that one thread, I never once saw a reply from any BW person.

Maybe, just maybe that was because they were collecting feedback in said thread, not commenting on it (which would be quite an undertaking by itself given the 900 pages nature...)

I've posted and participated in various threads here, including their EC announcement one and then the newer EC discussion one.  I have seen modded content where mods may say for people to keep on topic and I've sees some mods add a little to the discussion asking something, but it's a rarity.  Only once have I ever seen a post from a BW employee and it was one post from Mike Gamble.  That's in literally thousands of pages in too many threads for me to even remember.

And I've seen plenty of answers in various threads. Seems like we have different views here.

And no, I don't care to use twitter much.  That's exactly the point.  Twitter is not a substitute for participation in these forums.

You could just as easily say you don't use a telephone and expect that everyone comes by in person or writes a letter. Twitter is an established form of communication that's fast and allows for quick answers due to the length limit of tweets. Which makes it different from a forum. Some BioWare employees choose to share stuff on twitter. So what? BioWare is in no way obligated to answer here in these forums. Yet several devs do it anyway and many of it in their free time. And considering the pretty bad atmosphere and name-calling that's omnipresent here I don't blame anyone who decides to not participate that much: What goes around comes around...

I stand by my statement, that given the content of the podcast, there are some people who shouldn't be disseminating feedback, because she has not been consistent as far as even answering people on twitter.

What does her personal Twitter account have to do with her professional qualification to collect and analyse feedback?

I'm sorry, yes that's my opinion, and not based on attending a fan event where company people are of course going to be nice to you-because they know you like their work.

Yeah, let's just assume everyone is phony and a hypocrite. Sorry, but I don't share your view of the world.

Fan events, reddit, twitter, and IGN are not substitutes for discussing things here.

No, they are additions.

But I do take the point that others have made that she is hemmed in by what she must say-it's just that she may well have been fed info that was incorrect and then couldn't admit she had said it. 

Again, you're assuming things you have absolutely no knowledge of. And now tell me - would you like to discuss anything with a person that is so narrow-minded and has his mind made up before you even start a discussion?

Modifié par Siran, 23 août 2012 - 09:33 .

[3DandBeyond]

Siran wrote...



Yeah, let's just assume everyone is phony and a hypocrite. Sorry, but I don't share your view of the world.



Again, you're assuming things you have absolutely no knowledge of. And now tell me - would you like to discuss anything with a person that is so narrow-minded and has his mind made up before you even start a discussion?

I don't assume everyone is a phony and a hypocrite.  I commented on how one person has conducted things and spoke to that.  Nice of you to generalized and assume something I did not say.  Fan events are attended by fans.  If I dislike something EA has done, I am not going to attend a panel discussion run by EA, and I'm not traveling, getting a hotel room, or any such thing just to tell them I'm not happy with a game they made.  But, if I'm a real fan and love all that they do, I might do that. 

The idea that twitter is ok to use because it allows quick simple responses is exactly the problem.  It also limits discussion.  In the podcast she complains that people don't fully explain themselves so they aren't constructive.  They just say they don't like the ending or something simple and it's not possible to gain any insight from that.  Well, that's exactly the problem with twitter.  You can't fully explain anything or you'd be spamming tweets at her.

Twitter is used by anyone and they don't have to even own these games.  BW created this place for people that are registered owners of these games.  Sure, they're free to do what they want, but they have used twitter as a place to retcon things in the game or to "explain" what they meant by something instead of their own created established outlet. 

That "we are listening" thread would have been a natural place to have a discussion or to even cull members from to discuss things with.  Instead at some point, rather than discussing ME3 they decided to have a discussion with people about DA3.  This at the same time where in that "listening" thread there were repeated requests for an open discussion about the ME3 endings-and in a thread where people repeatedly said how much they had loved Bioware and ME.

And all of my assumptions actually are based on reality and what people from the company have said.  And there's not much that has been authentic.  For instance, they have never once admitted they made any mistakes.  They have instead attempted to tell people fans don't know what they're talking about.

I even posted the chronology of events that took place on twitter and at conventions that has caused this one person to totally change what was said on one issue alone, that of an ingame "reunion" for Shepard and the meaning of the gasp scene.  How can one have a genuine conversation with people that repeatedly say they never said things that they did say?  This is the Bioware culture.  People asked her if there would be a reunion in the EC that was not there in the original endings.  She said yes.  You can't parse that to mean anything else.  At the end of a long line of retconning all of that, she then said that she never said it.  Well, there were countless posts here where people had copied the tweet and I read it on twitter, but she never said it. She also did the same with other topics and there were threads on all kinds of issues that she was incorrect about.  I'm not trying to pick on her which is why I deferred to the idea that she was offering her interpretation of things at first and then was "reigned in" by others at BW.  The standard answer from all of them after the whole "reunion" debate became that the torso ending is ambiguous on purpose so everyone can imagine their own ending.

Mac Walters in Feb. said after ME3 the galaxy would be a wasteland.  People were upset that in every ending the galaxy was destroyed.  The EC came out and Mac and Casey Hudson said they didn't know how people got the idea the galaxy was destroyed in the original endings because they never meant that to be the case.  This is how things have been handled.

They're a company.  This is their company's website for contact with their customers.  Twitter is not.  Twitter can have a place and I've said it is my opinion it should not be a replacement for a presence here.  But it is.  It's not JM alone, it's how Bioware uses it.  It's like ME-twitter.  People bought a game and didn't expect huge portions of it to be rewritten or finished on twitter, but that's how they've used it.

Make no mistake that on this site there were many many people professing great love for the devs and the games and they were ignored here while BW allowed IGN and other surrogates to call them whiny, entitled, haters, and so on.  And BW also indicated they were not the brightest because they needed clarity-how were we supposed to know the Normandy raced in to lift up 2 teammates right in front of Harbinger and the conduit?  And they got on board, but what happened to the others in London at the FOB?  How were we supposed to know the galaxy wasn't destroyed when that was exactly what they expected to happen?  The kid is crazier than ever and we're supposed to say that Shepard would think he makes sense.  The ending we have is what we always had with more pictures, talking, and colors.  But we were told it was untouchable art.

Listen to the podcast.  BW has fans from all over the globe and at least one person there does not seem to understand that, but implies that people that can't explain their thoughts here are uneducated.  Nice.  I don't think it was intentional, but just not well thought out.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 août 2012 - 12:22 .

[N7Gold]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i dont expect bioware employees to know what they are doing.

kindof like walmart employees.

the walmart of the gaming industry!

Hey! Speaking as a Walmart associate, don't lump us into the same category as Bioware! WE have been known to make fixes when customers get ticked off!

Oh, and Sparkyo42? The exact quote was. "We know that's what you hoped to see, but sometimes we have other ideas we want to explore - never get to attached to a plot...", in response to someone asking on Twitter why Harbinger was effectively a no-show in ME3. So yeah, tiny little things like the villian of the middle game, the guy who's been set up to have an even larger role in ME3...don't get too attached to minor things like that. *bitter* Guess I shouldn't have gotten too attached to other things, either, like Legion's ME2 characterization. Seriously, how does one go from "Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us." and 'If Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base, Legion calls it an interesting choice, saying humanity was offered everything geth aspire to - unity, understanding and transcendence. Legion adds that Shepard even rejected using the Reapers' technology to achieve victory on humanity's own terms, and comments that the Commander is more like the geth than Legion initially thought' to 'integrating Reaper tech is teh futorz!'?

Legion stated that he and the Geth don't approve of the Reapers' methods but the Reaper code is too useful to discard even though its part of the Reapers. Now, think back to Mass Effect 2 during Mordin's loyalty mission. Even though Maelon's research on the genophage cure led to horrific experiments on humans AND female krogan, Maelon's research data proved to be too useful to discard just because the experiements were horrifically unethical. The point I'm making here is just because an object is tainted doesn't always mean it should always be discarded. Sometimes there's no alternative for a decision like that.

Modifié par N7Gold, 23 août 2012 - 12:48 .

[spirosz]

Well, there were a couple of great threads that criticized ME3, but in a civil way... but were still locked down, that happened a lot a few months ago. "Thanks for your opinion" was the norm, haha.

[Icinix]

N7Gold wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i dont expect bioware employees to know what they are doing.

kindof like walmart employees.

the walmart of the gaming industry!

Hey! Speaking as a Walmart associate, don't lump us into the same category as Bioware! WE have been known to make fixes when customers get ticked off!

Oh, and Sparkyo42? The exact quote was. "We know that's what you hoped to see, but sometimes we have other ideas we want to explore - never get to attached to a plot...", in response to someone asking on Twitter why Harbinger was effectively a no-show in ME3. So yeah, tiny little things like the villian of the middle game, the guy who's been set up to have an even larger role in ME3...don't get too attached to minor things like that. *bitter* Guess I shouldn't have gotten too attached to other things, either, like Legion's ME2 characterization. Seriously, how does one go from "Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us." and 'If Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base, Legion calls it an interesting choice, saying humanity was offered everything geth aspire to - unity, understanding and transcendence. Legion adds that Shepard even rejected using the Reapers' technology to achieve victory on humanity's own terms, and comments that the Commander is more like the geth than Legion initially thought' to 'integrating Reaper tech is teh futorz!'?

Legion stated that he and the Geth don't approve of the Reapers' methods but the Reaper code is too useful to discard even though its part of the Reapers. Now, think back to Mass Effect 2 during Mordin's loyalty mission. Even though Maelon's research on the genophage cure led to horrific experiments on humans AND female krogan, Maelon's research data proved to be too useful to discard just because the experiements were horrifically unethical. The point I'm making here is just because an object is tainted doesn't always mean it should always be discarded. Sometimes there's no alternative for a decision like that.

Is this a metaphor for game companies and their practices with DRM and DLC on gamers?

If not...a bit of tweaking and it just about could be.

Otherwise - if something can be used for good after being developed by something evil - at least make the suffering mean something.

[Siran]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't assume everyone is a phony and a hypocrite.  I commented on how one person has conducted things and spoke to that.  Nice of you to generalized and assume something I did not say. 

How is

"I'm sorry, yes that's my opinion, and not based on attending a fan event
where company people are of course going to be nice to you-because they
know you like their work."

not a generalization? You started to generalize in the first place. So, yes you did say it.

Fan events are attended by fans.  If I dislike something EA has done, I am not going to attend a panel discussion run by EA, and I'm not traveling, getting a hotel room, or any such thing just to tell them I'm not happy with a game they made.  But, if I'm a real fan and love all that they do, I might do that. 

That's just no logic at all. There were plenty of people attending SDCC that did not like the ending to ME3 for instance, there were even several threads here rallying people for just that. Plus, I certainly did not attend Gamescom just to talk to Jessica, Chris and Tully - one hour of my 10h at Gamescom where meeting with them and talking to them as well as other fans, since I wanted to those, too. Granted, it was one of the reasons I went to Gamescom, but that was because I wanted to see them in person, as I only had contact with them through forums or Twitter and it's always nice to meet who you're talking to in real life. Of course it's harder to blame someone over the internet and then meeting them face to face, but that's another story.

The idea that twitter is ok to use because it allows quick simple responses is exactly the problem.  It also limits discussion.  In the podcast she complains that people don't fully explain themselves so they aren't constructive.  They just say they don't like the ending or something simple and it's not possible to gain any insight from that.  Well, that's exactly the problem with twitter.  You can't fully explain anything or you'd be spamming tweets at her.

That's why there are other mediums. Twitter certainly isn't the only one that is used. But it is one where - provided you're not being aggressive or downright mean - you are likely to get a respone to short questions.

Sure, they're free to do what they want, but they have used twitter as a place to retcon things in the game or to "explain" what they meant by something instead of their own created established outlet.

I have not seen an official @masseffect or @bioware post retconning anything. Every other Twitter account is the personal account of that person and not an official account of BioWare that is used for Mass Effect in an official way. It's due to misunderstandings like this, that many even state "Statements here are my own" is now common in many descriptions of personal Twitter accounts.

They have instead attempted to tell people fans don't know what they're talking about.

I have yet to read such a statement.

I even posted the chronology of events that took place on twitter and at conventions that has caused this one person to totally change what was said on one issue alone, that of an ingame "reunion" for Shepard and the meaning of the gasp scene.

Can you maybe give a link to the list of events you posted, including their source as well as the other things you mention like the "wasteland" ?

Listen to the podcast.  BW has fans from all over the globe and at least one person there does not seem to understand that, but implies that people that can't explain their thoughts here are uneducated.  Nice.  I don't think it was intentional, but just not well thought out.

I was the one who first linked the podcast... So yeah, I've listened to it. And I never took it as insulting or anything in that way. That's why I posted it in the first place. But now I regret doing so, as people have turned that around and put words and meanings in her mouth that just aren't there. She said, that she collects the various feedback in all its form. She made an example of someone who is not used to expressing his opinion in a productive way and then said they are there to help channel the feedback of those, too. She never said they are uneducated, only that they want to help those cannot express their opinions in ways that are productive. And just by looking at some threads here that's really not uncommon.

Modifié par Siran, 23 août 2012 - 02:30 .

[3DandBeyond]

Siran wrote...


Can you maybe give a link to the list of events you posted, including their source as well as the other things you mention like the "wasteland" ?

I was the one who first linked the podcast... So yeah, I've listened to it. And I never took it as insulting or anything in that way. That's why I posted it in the first place. But now I regret doing so, as people have turned that around and put words and meanings in her mouth that just aren't there. She said, that she collects the various feedback in all its form. She made an example of someone who is not used to expressing his opinion in a productive way and then said they are there to help channel the feedback of those, too. She never said they are uneducated, only that they want to help those cannot express their opinions in ways that are productive. And just by looking at some threads here that's really not uncommon.

I'm sorry but how else can you take it when someone says that people don't explain their criticism and then says that it may be because of their schools or schooling?  And I don't care if the people here are English first speakers or if they speak other languages.  It is insulting.  She did talk about people and their schooling.  At around 17:00 she talks about lack of education as to why people cannot articulate their complaints.  She says schools focused on Math.  No, people all work differently-I can't do brain surgery, but maybe I can construct a good sentence.  A great IT guy may not be able to construct a good sentence, but knows the inner workings of computers far better than I.  And still others that are on here, do not speak or write English as their native language or they cannot point to why they don't like the endings, but they know they don't like them.  They still want their opinion heard. 

Many people will reply to some who can articulate their point and will say just that-that they couldn't say what they didn't like, but someone else said it for them.  There's a thread on a literary professor's take on the endings (writing is less art than it is craft) where his student posted the professor's exhaustive expose on the failings of the endings as good writing.  Whereas many writing teachers will simply say what you write is bad, this professor is very specific.  Many people thanked the professor for putting into words what they could not say.  It is wrong to think that everyone must be equally as talented as everyone else in English expression.  Yet she says schooling is at fault.  And if I say or if the professor says that BW failed writing 101 with their endings, that's not ok.  That's off limits.  It's art, so hands off.  And if I say they need to go back to school, that's an insult. 

Apparently, you missed the EC "interview" JM did with Casey Hudson and Mac Walters.  You can look that up for yourself. 

But here's the link to Mac Walters saying the galaxy would be a wasteland after ME3-he starts talking about it around 1:20 or so.
http://www.youtube.c...m3Vnt5zxI#t=77s

-he specifically said no DLC would be released post ME3 ending because the galaxy would be a wasteland.  He also wrote the Arrival that prefaced how such a thing would come to be-with mass relays destroyed.  And that was what was retconned on twitter.  And no I don't have all the twitter retcon material-it was posted on these forums (I have no idea how you missed all that) as was all the other retconning done.  Emily Wong died on twitter.

There have been a lot of posts here including some by some well-educated people expressing the things that were wrong with the endings.  And many places other than here have been used to retcon things within ME so that ME3 seems to fit.  It was done with the mass relays. I don't know how you could have missed all of these discussions.

[Siran]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I'm sorry but how else can you take it when someone says that people don't explain their criticism and then says that it may be because of their schools or schooling?  And I don't care if the people here are English first speakers or if they speak other languages.  It is insulting.  She did talk about people and their schooling.  At around 17:00 she talks about lack of education as to why people cannot articulate their complaints.  She says schools focused on Math.

All she did was state an example. That some people do not know how to arcticulate themselves and she made a speculation that for example that their school's focus was math instead of how to articulate your opinion in a proper way. She never said that everyone was illiterate who voiced his or her opinion. What you might criticize is that she made a rather general assumption of the education system. But it was all in the context of an example, where they help to channel the feedback even some people who just think "the ending sucks" but don't really know how to tell you why.

And still others that are on here, do not speak or write English as their native language or they cannot point to why they don't like the endings, but they know they don't like them.  They still want their opinion heard.

No one disputes that and no one said they aren't heard or not taken seriously...

Apparently, you missed the EC "interview" JM did with Casey Hudson and Mac Walters.  You can look that up for yourself. 

But here's the link to Mac Walters saying the galaxy would be a wasteland after ME3-he starts talking about it around 1:20 or so.
http://www.youtube.c...m3Vnt5zxI#t=77s

-he specifically said no DLC would be released post ME3 ending because the galaxy would be a wasteland.

Because it is a wasteland. In case you didn't realize, the Reapers lay waste to the galaxy during the events of ME3... It takes time to rebuild everything, even with highest EMS, so what would be the point of a DLC set in that surrounding? Plus, ME3 was the end of Shepard's journey. Why would there be a post-end DLC, especially considering all the possible outcomes, many of which include a very dead Shepard.  I'm afraid you totally misunderstood him there.

And no I don't have all the twitter retcon material-it was posted on these forums (I have no idea how you missed all that) as was all the other retconning done.

Then I'm afraid I can't comment on things you say, but cannot prove.

Emily Wong died on twitter.

I know. I even followed it live on Twitter, being glued to the monitor and waiting for her next tweet, that's how exhilarating it was! It was imho a very innovative way of using the medium as well as it's possibilities (like the unfiltered, direct, real-time nature) and a great homage to Orson Welles' War of the Worls radio broadcast back in 1938. You could not have done the same thing in ME3 itself. I for one thought it was an original, new way of getting the "old" fans fixed on the release of ME3, as that co-incided with Emily's tweets since they knew her from ME1 and 2 and to approach a different audience, through a viral Twitter campaign: There were tons of people doing photo-shops of Reaper Ships above their hometowns, tweeting about Reaper sightings or of unidentified Alien ships etc. It was awesome!

There have been a lot of posts here including some by some well-educated people expressing the things that were wrong with the endings.  And many places other than here have been used to retcon things within ME so that ME3 seems to fit.  It was done with the mass relays. I don't know how you could have missed all of these discussions.

I didn't, please don't patronize me. I just want some proof of your statements. Is that so hard to ask? Regarding the Mass Relays and the fate of the universe they addressed that in the very Extended Cut interview you mentioned.

Modifié par Siran, 23 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[Helios969]

Damn, you guy's still raging at the poor woman? ME staff will never come back to discuss the game with us if they cannot do it without getting ripped to shreds...just saying. Hostility has taken over BSN and frankly BW has more restraint than I have...I'd probably ban a good 5-10% of you (you know which ones you are...you angry little trolls.)

[3DandBeyond]

Siran wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I'm sorry but how else can you take it when someone says that people don't explain their criticism and then says that it may be because of their schools or schooling?  And I don't care if the people here are English first speakers or if they speak other languages.  It is insulting.  She did talk about people and their schooling.  At around 17:00 she talks about lack of education as to why people cannot articulate their complaints.  She says schools focused on Math.

All she did was state an example. That some people do not know how to arcticulate themselves and she made a speculation that for example that their school's focus was math instead of how to articulate your opinion in a proper way. She never said that everyone was illiterate who voiced his or her opinion. What you might criticize is that she made a rather general assumption of the education system. But it was all in the context of an example, where they help to channel the feedback even some people who just think "the ending sucks" but don't really know how to tell you why.

And still others that are on here, do not speak or write English as their native language or they cannot point to why they don't like the endings, but they know they don't like them.  They still want their opinion heard.

No one disputes that and no one said they aren't heard or not taken seriously...

Apparently, you missed the EC "interview" JM did with Casey Hudson and Mac Walters.  You can look that up for yourself. 

But here's the link to Mac Walters saying the galaxy would be a wasteland after ME3-he starts talking about it around 1:20 or so.
http://www.youtube.c...m3Vnt5zxI#t=77s

-he specifically said no DLC would be released post ME3 ending because the galaxy would be a wasteland.

Because it is a wasteland. In case you didn't realize, the Reapers lay waste to the galaxy during the events of ME3... It takes time to rebuild everything, even with highest EMS, so what would be the point of a DLC set in that surrounding? Plus, ME3 was the end of Shepard's journey. Why would there be a post-end DLC, especially considering all the possible outcomes, many of which include a very dead Shepard.  I'm afraid you totally misunderstood him there.

And no I don't have all the twitter retcon material-it was posted on these forums (I have no idea how you missed all that) as was all the other retconning done.

Then I'm afraid I can't comment on things you say, but cannot prove.

Emily Wong died on twitter.

I know. I even followed it live on Twitter, being glued to the monitor and waiting for her next tweet, that's how exhilarating it was! It was imho a very innovative way of using the medium as well as it's possibilities (like the unfiltered, direct, real-time nature) and a great homage to Orson Welles' War of the Worls radio broadcast back in 1938. You could not have done the same thing in ME3 itself. I for one thought it was an original, new way of getting the "old" fans fixed on the release of ME3, as that co-incided with Emily's tweets since they knew her from ME1 and 2 and to approach a different audience, through a viral Twitter campaign: There were tons of people doing photo-shops of Reaper Ships above their hometowns, tweeting about Reaper sightings or of unidentified Alien ships etc. It was awesome!

There have been a lot of posts here including some by some well-educated people expressing the things that were wrong with the endings.  And many places other than here have been used to retcon things within ME so that ME3 seems to fit.  It was done with the mass relays. I don't know how you could have missed all of these discussions.

I didn't, please don't patronize me. I just want some proof of your statements. Is that so hard to ask? Regarding the Mass Relays and the fate of the universe they addressed that in the very Extended Cut interview you mentioned.

Ok, I'm afraid you're just arguing to argue.  You read all the retconning tweets, but want me to go back and find them all and repost them before you will comment on them.  Please.

A wasteland meant everything was destroyed, not fixable, gone.  It was what people complained about-people wouldn't survive past that and with exploded or ruptured relays they wouldn't.  That is also what they addressed in the EC-that they had no idea why people thought the galaxy would be in ruins after the original endings.  They acted like people just made it all up or assumed the wrong thing instead of saying it was a mistake to do that.  And now in the EC, they include some rather juvenile narration that says the relays are easily fixable.  The fact you are ignoring that and telling me to prove things you admit you already have read or listened to is ridiculous.  It's known stuff that even you know.  Get real. 

That's a real joke about the Emily Wong thing and you are proving my point-how they dealt with her was one of the most hated things they did.  A lot of people never even had any idea what happened to her and were upset after the fact that they chose twitter and couldn't even do it on these boards.  And they at least could have done it here, not on twitter.  You love twitter, I get that.  A lot of people prefer for game content to be in the game and not have to be in their heads or spread out all over the web.  BW has an outlet to fans but they defer to twitter?  That makes no sense at all. 

On the one hand you say you can't comment on things I can't prove (all of the previous posts of twitter retcons) and then later on you say I am patronizing you because you have read all the retcons you want me to prove.  Have fun.  You are just trying to argue and not discuss.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 août 2012 - 04:47 .

[paul165]

Helios969 wrote...

Damn, you guy's still raging at the poor woman? ME staff will never come back to discuss the game with us if they cannot do it without getting ripped to shreds...just saying. Hostility has taken over BSN and frankly BW has more restraint than I have...I'd probably ban a good 5-10% of you (you know which ones you are...you angry little trolls.)

Then maybe, just maybe they should stop being so incredibly patronising. If they could stop lying that would be a major acheivement as well. Note this is not specifically JM as I long since started pretending she doesn't work for Bioware.

Once they've sorted that they could have actual productive conversations with the community ie the people who bought the game until then what's the damn point?

If they don't like the feedback they ignore it, if you report a bug they ignore it and lock the thread and if you don't bend over for them they imply you're mentally unstable. Sounds a great basis for a reasoned conversation to me!

The EMS issue for me still defines the EA era bioware namely lie, lie, lie so more and then fix it several months later making it seem as if you're doing a favour for the poor people who couldn't play the game properly.

[Helios969]

paul165 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Damn, you guy's still raging at the poor woman? ME staff will never come back to discuss the game with us if they cannot do it without getting ripped to shreds...just saying. Hostility has taken over BSN and frankly BW has more restraint than I have...I'd probably ban a good 5-10% of you (you know which ones you are...you angry little trolls.)

Then maybe, just maybe they should stop being so incredibly patronising. If they could stop lying that would be a major acheivement as well. Note this is not specifically JM as I long since started pretending she doesn't work for Bioware.

Once they've sorted that they could have actual productive conversations with the community ie the people who bought the game until then what's the damn point?

If they don't like the feedback they ignore it, if you report a bug they ignore it and lock the thread and if you don't bend over for them they imply you're mentally unstable. Sounds a great basis for a reasoned conversation to me!

The EMS issue for me still defines the EA era bioware namely lie, lie, lie so more and then fix it several months later making it seem as if you're doing a favour for the poor people who couldn't play the game properly.

Didn't claim the game was perfect.  My main point was that it'd be nice if we could go back to having a constructive dialogue between fans and ME people, but that'll never happen as long as people continue to be mean-spirited.  And let's face it, most of the criticism is just a way for people who are disasified with the product to vent and feel validated.  They're angry, can't come to terms with it, so they look for anything they can to vent their frustrations.  It's just blind rage...and nothing good ever comes from that.

[3DandBeyond]

paul165 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Damn, you guy's still raging at the poor woman? ME staff will never come back to discuss the game with us if they cannot do it without getting ripped to shreds...just saying. Hostility has taken over BSN and frankly BW has more restraint than I have...I'd probably ban a good 5-10% of you (you know which ones you are...you angry little trolls.)

Then maybe, just maybe they should stop being so incredibly patronising. If they could stop lying that would be a major acheivement as well. Note this is not specifically JM as I long since started pretending she doesn't work for Bioware.

Once they've sorted that they could have actual productive conversations with the community ie the people who bought the game until then what's the damn point?

If they don't like the feedback they ignore it, if you report a bug they ignore it and lock the thread and if you don't bend over for them they imply you're mentally unstable. Sounds a great basis for a reasoned conversation to me!

The EMS issue for me still defines the EA era bioware namely lie, lie, lie so more and then fix it several months later making it seem as if you're doing a favour for the poor people who couldn't play the game properly.

Yes, and they continually go on to say things at comic con and other conventions that are rather demeaning.  The whole EMS thing goes hand in hand with all of this.  At times it was totally disputed and it was even said to be a random bug some people had.  And a lot of poor people kept chasing this one down, trying to get high enough EMS in the game and couldn't figure out how to do it, and BW did nothing to help.  One person, a dev working on DA3 finally admitted that he thought it was an oversight that they might fix and that they wouldn't do the same with DA3.

[Siran]

Ok, I'm afraid you're just arguing to argue.  You read all the retconning tweets, but want me to go back and find them all and repost them before you will comment on them.  Please

Of course I want proof. That's the basis of any argument. If you can't agree to that, then you might as well stop arguing. It's not OK to make claims in a thread regarding a person (here Jessica) and write thinss from the top of your head attributing to that person and say "Just look it up somewhere, it's all been said". That's just not an acceptable way to argue, I'm sorry.

A wasteland meant everything was destroyed, not fixable, gone.  It was what people complained about-people wouldn't survive past that and with exploded or ruptured relays they wouldn't.  That is also what they addressed in the EC-that they had no idea why people thought the galaxy would be in ruins after the original endings.

Even if you take the original endings literally, the galaxy wouldn't be a total wasteland. You're just grasping for straws here. It's pretty clear what he wanted to say but obviously couldn't as Shepard's death would have been a big spoiler at that time as the interview was from February.

That's a real joke about the Emily Wong thing and you are proving my point-how they dealt with her was one of the most hated things they did.

No, it's not a joke, but thanks for dismissing my opinion as such....

And they at least could have done it here, not on twitter.

It wouldn't have been possible, since a forum is not Twitter, does not have the same authentic, real-time feel. In a forum it would have just been a long post without much tension. Wells' play would not have worked in a newspaper for the same reasons for instance.  Plus not everyone reads BSN as well, so it would not have reached everyone here, too. I agree that they could have posted it here once the Twitter-feed was complete, but then again you still can read up on it there, you don't need a Twitter account for that.

A lot of people prefer for game content to be in the game and not have to be in their heads or spread out all over the web.  BW has an outlet to fans but they defer to twitter?  That makes no sense at all.

As I already said, it would not have worked in the game the in the same way it worked on Twitter. There was no place for a cinematic, as Shepard was in Vancouver at that time. And via E-mail wouldn't have had the same emotional impact. So, there really was no place in ME3 to do it.

On the one hand you say you can't comment on things I can't prove (all of the previous posts of twitter retcons) and then later on you say I am patronizing you because you have read all the retcons you want me to prove.  Have fun.  You are just trying to argue and not discuss.

If that's how you deal with differing opinions then you're right, I don't need that from you. I asked for the wasteland and reunion quotes specifically, as I did not (and still don't regarding the reuinion part) know them. But thanks for implying I lie for the sake of arguing.

Modifié par Siran, 23 août 2012 - 05:46 .

[-Skorpious-]

spirosz wrote...

Well, there were a couple of great threads that criticized ME3, but in a civil way... but were still locked down, that happened a lot a few months ago. "Thanks for your opinion" was the norm, haha.

Was? It still is when Chris is moderating the boards. 

[3DandBeyond]

Siran wrote...


Of course I want proof. That's the basis of any argument. If you can't agree to that, then you might as well stop arguing. It's not OK to make claims in a thread regarding a person (here Jessica) and write thinss from the top of your head attributing to that person and say "Just look it up somewhere, it's all been said". That's just not an acceptable way to argue, I'm sorry.

You asked me for proof of things that have been repeatedly posted on these forums in regard to the endings.  And you asked for proof of things you already knew and implied consistently that I was lying.  They have been posted and it's an impossibility to save all of the relevant post locations for one person that seems bent on just arguing.  It was repeatedly posted and referenced again and again.  I even said it was and you said you were fully aware of it, but now you want me to prove it.  That's ridiculous.  I was not making it up from the top of my head, but again, you claim I am insulting you and you continually are doing that to me.  You are asking for proof of things you know to be true.  That's pure argument, not discussion and all you have repeatedly done here.  You accuse other people of things you are doing yourself.

Everyone knew what the exploding mass relay meant in the original endings and it fit in perfectly with the Arrival (that Mac Walters wrote) and with the codex Desperate Measures (to this day not retconned), and with Walters' wasteland comment.  A destroyed or ruined star system pretty much indicates the galaxy was annihilated and that's what people saw.  Why if that was not the case did they use twitter to retcon it?  They started to say the explosions weren't that great (which people found to be laughable).  And the EC announcement totally retcons the Feb statement by Walters.  The original endings truly meant that the galaxy was destroyed.  It was one of the main things people couldn't reconcile with the torso scene, the Normandy crash scene, and any idea that anyone could survive.  The fleets were stranded.   You just refuse to see it.  Read Desperate Measures and tell me how that could possibly mean the galaxy would be ok.


And yes they could have done something similar with Emily Wong on BSN.  They could have had a stickied announcement about it and even have done repeated posts as they did on twitter and kept it locked so there would be no replies to it until it was over and at the end they could have opened it up for comments.  It could easily have been done. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 août 2012 - 06:22 .

[Siran]

3DandBeyond wrote...

You asked me for proof of things that have been repeatedly posted on these forums in regard to the endings.  And you asked for proof of things you already knew and implied consistently that I was lying. 

Then excuse me that I did not read every thread on the endings. Most of them are repetitive anyway. But since you don't want to give your sources I can't argue with you it's that simple and has nothing to do with me implying you are lying

It was repeatedly posted and referenced again and again. 

Then it shouldn't be a big deal for you to link at least some of your statements to the postings...

I even said it was and you said you were fully aware of it, but now you want me to prove it.  That's ridiculous.

Where did I say that, please stop making accusations! I said I know about Emily Wong, that's it. I did neither know about the Wasteland argument nor about Jessica's alleged statements regarding reunion. I've said this in my last post, too, so why do you keep bringing it up?

I was not making it up from the top of my head, but again, you claim I am insulting you and you continually are doing that to me.

I said you write things from the top of your head (meaning how you remember them) not make them up. That's a  difference.

You are asking for proof of things you know to be true.

Again - I don't

And yes they could have done something similar with Emily Wong on BSN.  They could have had a stickied announcement about it and even have done repeated posts as they did on twitter and kept it locked so there would be no replies to it until it was over and at the end they could have opened it up for comments.  It could easily have been done. 

So emulating something that can be done with Twitter? Posting every 2min and closing the thread would have been quite silly. Her Tweets were announced on gameing websites, the Mass Effect website, etc - Twitter has far more reach than BSN and is predestined for it, so why use a medium that isn't as suited for it?

Modifié par Siran, 23 août 2012 - 08:50 .

[paul165]

Helios969 wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Damn, you guy's still raging at the poor woman? ME staff will never come back to discuss the game with us if they cannot do it without getting ripped to shreds...just saying. Hostility has taken over BSN and frankly BW has more restraint than I have...I'd probably ban a good 5-10% of you (you know which ones you are...you angry little trolls.)

Then maybe, just maybe they should stop being so incredibly patronising. If they could stop lying that would be a major acheivement as well. Note this is not specifically JM as I long since started pretending she doesn't work for Bioware.

Once they've sorted that they could have actual productive conversations with the community ie the people who bought the game until then what's the damn point?

If they don't like the feedback they ignore it, if you report a bug they ignore it and lock the thread and if you don't bend over for them they imply you're mentally unstable. Sounds a great basis for a reasoned conversation to me!

The EMS issue for me still defines the EA era bioware namely lie, lie, lie so more and then fix it several months later making it seem as if you're doing a favour for the poor people who couldn't play the game properly.

Didn't claim the game was perfect.  My main point was that it'd be nice if we could go back to having a constructive dialogue between fans and ME people, but that'll never happen as long as people continue to be mean-spirited.  And let's face it, most of the criticism is just a way for people who are disasified with the product to vent and feel validated.  They're angry, can't come to terms with it, so they look for anything they can to vent their frustrations.  It's just blind rage...and nothing good ever comes from that.

The post wasn't really about the game it was about their attitude towards the community and that I would argue has done far more to poison any dialogue than the trolls - who after all can be banned.

When you have the community coordinator making "your mom" comments, calling people idiots and lying repeatedly and proveably there's no point in banning the trolls becuase the lunatics are running the asylum. JM's comments in this interview suggesting people are mentally deficient isn't stunningly helpful either.

Although I would suggest this is rather irrelevant because all the post ME3 commentary has proved what kind of "feedback" they are interested in - and the people playing the game aren't it no matter how polite the comments are.