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[Dean_the_Young]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

And people wonder why BW employees have largely gone quiet...

Doesn't stop BIS from responding, and they receive hate over far far far more trivial things.

And some women stay in abusive relationships. How does it make the treatment right?

[EnvyTB075]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

And people wonder why BW employees have largely gone quiet...

Doesn't stop BIS from responding, and they receive hate over far far far more trivial things.

And some women stay in abusive relationships. How does it make the treatment right?

That is an incredibly poor analogy.

Dean_the_Young wrot
You shouldn't get too attached to anything. Too attached, by definition, is excessive.

And that especially is stupid.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 20 août 2012 - 11:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]EnvyTB075 wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]EnvyTB075 wrote...

[quote]Helios969 wrote...

And people wonder why BW employees have largely gone quiet...[/quote]

Doesn't stop BIS from responding, and they receive hate over far far far more trivial things.
[/quote]And some women stay in abusive relationships. How does it make the treatment right?
[/quote]

That is an incredibly poor analogy.[/quote]It's an incredibly relevant one. The argument of 'other people put up with it' in no way justifies the behavior, or compels others to submit to the same abuse.

[quote]
And that especially is stupid.
[/quote]
[/quote]Do you not understand the concept of 'excessive'?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 août 2012 - 11:42 .

[McAllyster]

Don't get too attached to a plot. Means Artistic Integrity?

[hostaman]

The assertion is correct - fans do not own the plot. They may have an interest, a preference or a desire, but the plot is owned by the writers.

With any luck you'll enjoy what they write, but sometimes you will not. That's just the way it is.

A story created by fans would cost billions and please nobody - that's why game writers take on what they do, and do a darn good job with what they have.

If you don't like it, please move on and leave it to those of us who do.

[Helios969]

hostaman wrote...

The assertion is correct - fans do not own the plot. They may have an interest, a preference or a desire, but the plot is owned by the writers.

With any luck you'll enjoy what they write, but sometimes you will not. That's just the way it is.

A story created by fans would cost billions and please nobody - that's why game writers take on what they do, and do a darn good job with what they have.

If you don't like it, please move on and leave it to those of us who do.

Here, here...(raises glass.)

[AlexMBrennan]

Look, why are you wasting your time discussing her response? She's PR, so it's absolutely meaningless.

[EnvyTB075]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's an incredibly relevant one.

Actually it is not, BIS could do a BioWare and say absolutely nothing and leave their fans out in the cold, they have a choice. However they filter the obvious BS complaints, take in the legitimate (and only a fool would say that absolutely no legit complaint has been raised over ME3) complaints and actively work to iron them out and make a better game, and patching current games to the standard expected.

Your analogy doesn't work, because the "wife" has no choice but to listen to everything, drowning out the coherent arguments. It is however too late for anything really, they waited too long, not that the relevant threads haven't been hard to identify anyway.

If you hadn't noticed, i love BIS, they don't compromise the character of their games to chase the big bucks, yet make much higher quality games than most so-called AAA developers.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Do you not understand the concept of 'excessive'?

A pilot loves flying so much he can't imagine not being able. He has an accident which means he can't fly again. By your logic continuing to "love" flying would be excessive and shouldn't be allowed and he should be shunned.

This is why extreme analogies do not work in an industry example.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 20 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Your analogy doesn't work, because the "wife" has no choice but to listen to everything, drowning out the coherent arguments. It is however too late for anything really, they waited too long, not that the relevant threads haven't been hard to identify anyway.

Not really.

If you hadn't noticed, i love BIS, they don't compromise the character of their games to chase the big bucks, yet make much higher quality games than most so-called AAA developers.

Half a year ago, many people would have sworn the same of Bioware. I can take two possibilities into account: that you are correct, or that you are simply ignorant because you have not been disappointed yet.

A pilot loves flying so much he can't imagine not being able. He has an accident which means he can't fly again. By your logic continuing to "love" flying would be excessive and shouldn't be allowed and he should be shunned.

Since that is not the logic or argument, you apparently do not.

This is why extreme analogies do not work in an industry example.

Or perhaps they do not work with people like you. Oh well.

[Memnon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hm? Mass Effect 2 was a major success.

Which is the reason Harbinger should have been in ME3 in some form or another. I loved ME2, but when I look back at it as a part of the overall trilogy it was absolutely pointless. There is nothing it adds as far as the narrative is concerned, it's a fun way to pass time shooting things while waiting for the 3rd game. This is exacerbated by the fact that the primary villain of said highly successful game was completely ignored after Arrival. It's not that we were attached to a plot - it's that the plot is disjointed. We went from Harbinger as the primary antagonist and Cerberus being a complex organization with questionable methods, to Harbinger being on the sidelines and Cerberus being the bad guy in the black hat with unlimited resources and an army large enough to raid multiple planets as well as storm the Citadel. It wasn't that I was attached to the plot, I think the plot turned silly  ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 20 août 2012 - 12:32 .

[BDelacroix]

Sounds like post-modernism to me. Nothing means anything. With the expected result of chaos.

Also, sounds like a very artsy answer.

Modifié par BDelacroix, 20 août 2012 - 12:51 .

[DRACO1130]

Actually YOU missed the entire point.
In Light of ME3 - with EVERY preceding decision the player has ever made having been discarded in favor of slavish obedience to where the story was MANDATED to go, ignore the plot indeed.
Don't get to attached to the plot
unspoke part of that is :
Because we have discarded it and negated player choice, this story is going to unfold in only 1 way, player choices be damned.

[LiarasShield]

Isn't me3 alone a bit sad how it is ment as a stand alone game separate from the rest of the me games but now we have to hear don't get to attached to the plot I didn't play this game for hundreds of hours and cared about the characters for 5 years for you to tell me to not care about what happens in the final game....

[Iakus]

DRACO1130 wrote...

Actually YOU missed the entire point.
In Light of ME3 - with EVERY preceding decision the player has ever made having been discarded in favor of slavish obedience to where the story was MANDATED to go, ignore the plot indeed.
Don't get to attached to the plot
unspoke part of that is :
Because we have discarded it and negated player choice, this story is going to unfold in only 1 way, player choices be damned.

And this is why Shepard's unavoidable death is the #1 sticking point for me.  It pretty much defines the lack of player chocie.

[Goneaviking]

Stornskar wrote...
Which is the reason Harbinger should have been in ME3 in some form or another. I loved ME2, but when I look back at it as a part of the overall trilogy it was absolutely pointless. There is nothing it adds as far as the narrative is concerned, it's a fun way to pass time shooting things while waiting for the 3rd game.

I've read this assessment before, but never agreed with it. During the game we learned a significant amount about the reapers and their modus operandi. For instance that reaper's "reproduce" by harvesting significant races each cycle and their repurposing of the protheans and collectors paints a very distinct view of organic species that don't make the cut.
Our dealings with Legion, and I'm sure most of us have had dealings with him, break up the view of the geth as a monolithic entity and redefine them as a more diverse and less hostile race than we were exposed to in the first game. It also introduces EDI as an AI who goes on to prove herself to be a loyal friend and ally of the Normandy's crew. Either, or both, of these developments encourage us to see through the Catalyst's philosophy as the bunk that it is.
Finally, it lays down the politics that define the galactic civilisation. ME1 ended with a triumphalist Shepard heading off to finish of the geth while the Council was committed to stopping the reaper invasion - an excellent end for a one off game but a poor choice for a series leading into the actual invasion. ME2 showed the council ignoring, downplaying or outright denying the threat, it proved that the society was fragmented and that the wrongs that had been committed years earlier were festering just below the surface remained relevant and continued to prevent the communities from coming together in their time of need.
Without the politics at Tali's trial, and her demonstrating herself to be a zealot in cause of returning her people to Rannoch (she's willing to chance her people's continued existence on starting a new war with the geth), and without a demonstration of just how horrific the genophage is and to what lengths the krogan are willing to go to have it reversed (to say nothing of the guilt felt by those responsible for it), then two of the most important story archs in ME3 are a lot less convincing.

This is exacerbated by the fact that the primary villain of said highly successful game was completely ignored after Arrival. It's not that we were attached to a plot - it's that the plot is disjointed. We went from Harbinger as the primary antagonist and Cerberus being a complex organization with questionable methods, to Harbinger being on the sidelines and Cerberus being the bad guy in the black hat with unlimited resources and an army large enough to raid multiple planets as well as storm the Citadel. It wasn't that I was attached to the plot, I think the plot turned silly  ...

Harbinger's influence was implied in the third instalment of the game rather directly stated. A mistake perhaps, but he wasn't forgotten by developers and the broken reaper on Rannoch mentioned him by name and even the second game never seemed to imply that Harbinger was a major player among the reapers. He was in charge of a project laying groundwork for inevitable invasion, an important role to be certain but something they could have dispensed with.

The problem with Cerberus being a 'complicated organization with questionable methods' is that you can only reliably demonstrate such a thing from the inside. No longer having the opportunity to explicitly sit Shepard down to explain what's going on, the developers can only place hints as to what's going on with Cerberus and leave us to infer what we'd like about its motivations and activities. The Illusive Man has always seemed to be motivated by a fascination with, and desire for power, he demonstrated that with his manipulation of information to achieve his ends and control Shepard's decisions as well as by keeping his finger in every one of Cerberus' operations.

So the only Cerberus related surprise for me was that people were upset that they could no longer see Cerberus' point of view.

[Memnon]

iakus wrote...

DRACO1130 wrote...

Actually YOU missed the entire point.
In Light of ME3 - with EVERY preceding decision the player has ever made having been discarded in favor of slavish obedience to where the story was MANDATED to go, ignore the plot indeed.
Don't get to attached to the plot
unspoke part of that is :
Because we have discarded it and negated player choice, this story is going to unfold in only 1 way, player choices be damned.

And this is why Shepard's unavoidable death is the #1 sticking point for me.  It pretty much defines the lack of player chocie.

I've expressed a similar sentiment before - the writers had to decide if Shepard was going to live or die, because if they had some endings (based on choice) in which he lived vice endings in which he died, the overwhelming majority of the player base would choose to live. So they had to say he dies, period, and then they built the endings from there ... I guess because if he lived it wouldn't be angsty enough. Not a good way to design the end to a trilogy in which choices are supposed to matter, in my opinion

[RaenImrahl]

The bickering here has gone on long enough. We're rehashing a lot of old ground. Locked.

[Goneaviking]

Flog61 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

And people wonder why BW employees have largely gone quiet...

Doesn't stop BIS from responding, and they receive hate over far far far more trivial things.

And some women stay in abusive relationships. How does it make the treatment right?

How dare you compare being (validly) annoyed about what someone says to domestic abuse.

How dare you.

Because it's an apt comparison given the personal abuse directed at Ms Merizan in this thread. Even more so given that it is, allegedly, in response to a distorted and out of context comment.

How dare you take a disengenous moral stance in support of people lobbing abuse at the woman, because she answered the OP's question in good faith only to have it misrepresented?

Don't bother to answer that, I understand hypocricy.

[Jessica Merizan]

I just want to clarify something and then I'm locking this thread for turning from a healthy discussion into something unproductive.

When I said "sometimes we have other ideas we want to explore - never get too attached to a plot." via Twitter, I was referring to writers and their "word babies" as they like to call them, many of which get cut or unused. They have to stay relatively objective otherwise they can't explore amazing ideas brought up by people on the team. The writers can't get too attached to anything. That's not to say they don't have emotional connections to their writing and love the things they create - they don't call them "babies" for nothing 

Now, totally different - YOU shouldn't listen to anyone who tells you how to play your game. That was never my intention to say anything otherwise. I'm incredibly attached to certain plots/characters/concepts, and I can be because I'm not a writer. And of course I'm sad when plots don't happen the way I thought they would, and that's totally OK for me as a consumer, but ultimately I'm not the writer and I think they oftentimes delight and surprise me in ways I couldn't have imagined. 

Sorry it took me so long to clarify this - hadn't seen how prolific this was until now.

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 06 novembre 2012 - 04:40 .