419 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

D24O wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

When you pick refuse isn't it is Harbinger who utters "So be it"? This strongly hints that Harbinger was the star child.

Prove IT?

I'm not saying it proves IT, the extended cut already disproved that. That still doesn't mean Harbinger wasn't there at the pivotal moment.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Oh for the love of....

We put this big guy on a pedestal, a statue of him, made of gold with a massive neon sign over him and an engraved nameplate in the plinth.

Why?

****s and giggles!

The 'we' in this case is you and fans like you, not Bioware. You created false expectations.

WHY THE HELL would you put 2 and a half games worth of framing into building him up if he's not important afterall!?

Except they... didn't.

Besides that Harbinger was only introduced in the second game, and only as a Reaper at the very end of it, at no point in the story of ME3 was Harbinger framed as such. Outside of a single codex entry, Harbinger wasn't even directly referenced until much later in the game.

James bond movie: guy sitting behind a desk with sinister lighting, wearing a suit stroking a cat.  I'm going to put money on him being somewhat important.

And Harbinger was important... to ME2. Until you blew up his villainous layer.

[Malanek]

Jamie9 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

When you pick refuse isn't it is Harbinger who utters "So be it"? This strongly hints that Harbinger was the star child.

No, it was the Catalyst. Just a deeper voice, to portray that he is angry.

I may be wrong about this, my memory is hazy, but if you switch subtitles on doesn't it state "Harbinger: So be it"?

[Jamie9]

Jessica Merizan: "Don't get attached to the plot."

Mike Gamble: "OH TEH NOES! Look a small child died. Care about him. Spend 40 hours caring about him!"

BioWare choose. You must fire one of them. Your PR or your writers. =P

[Dean_the_Young]

M0keys wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But we needed a good bad guy if there was going to be one.

The Reapers already provide one as a whole, because the Reapers are a threat as a whole.

And for a foe with a face, the Illusive Man and Cerberus are pretty obvious.

but Illusive Man was simplified to the point of being an ineffectual lackey instead of a complex foe, and was only used as a cheat to impede player progress. he was never really used to challenge the player's endurance and beliefs like a true antagonist.

That's a false definition. A 'true antagonist' is simply someone who is an antagonist to the player, regardless of efficacy or quality.

[GarrusIsMyBro]

If I wasn't attached, I wouldn't have dropped 80 bucks on ME3, and I certainly wouldn't be buying Leviathan with 10 more dollars.

[M0keys]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

but he felt like the leader,

'Felt' is not the same thing as 'was claimed to be.'

People projected a role onto Harbinger that was never claimed. That's their fault, and it isn't Bioware's responsibility to address a claim they never made.

people like to have bad guys if they're established as being powerful and threatening... little nitpicky canon things can cease to matter if your story still works on an emotional level like that

Mass Effect 3 hardly lacks for malevolent forces and bad guys.

But they were all ephemeral, or background, or simplified. a true antagonist tracks you down, comes right up to your face and says, "you can't survive in this world, and neither can the things you've created. I'm the one who is right. the only way you'll live through this ordeal is by destroying the primal forces I represent, and that's never going to happen," and it'll keep hammering you until you either surrender all you hold dear, or find your secret reserves to break through. Illusive man didn't count because in ME3 he was hardly anything more than an annoying saturday morning cartoon villain with a cast of cartoon mooks at his side

closest to the idea of a real antagonist was Starchild and bioware presented him out of the blue, right at the end, as a good guy who couldn't be challenged.

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Oh for the love of....

We put this big guy on a pedestal, a statue of him, made of gold with a massive neon sign over him and an engraved nameplate in the plinth.

Why?

****s and giggles!

The 'we' in this case is you and fans like you, not Bioware. You created false expectations.

WHY THE HELL would you put 2 and a half games worth of framing into building him up if he's not important afterall!?

Except they... didn't.

Besides that Harbinger was only introduced in the second game, and only as a Reaper at the very end of it, at no point in the story of ME3 was Harbinger framed as such. Outside of a single codex entry, Harbinger wasn't even directly referenced until much later in the game.

James bond movie: guy sitting behind a desk with sinister lighting, wearing a suit stroking a cat.  I'm going to put money on him being somewhat important.

And Harbinger was important... to ME2. Until you blew up his villainous layer.

Dean: you're an idiot.

"Harbinger is believed to be the oldest and largest of the reapers, and amongst those leading the attack on Earth" - ME3's own bloody codex.

This is what we call framing, it's a common practice used to make an antagonist seem important to a plot line.

[Jamie9]

Malanek999 wrote...
I may be wrong about this, my memory is hazy, but if you switch subtitles on doesn't it state "Harbinger: So be it"?

No, it says "Child: So be it."

www.youtube.com/watch

[plfranke]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

@Dean he was at the very least the face of the primary antogonist, and he was set up to be the leader of the Reapers when you see him in front when they're flying towards Earth, I really don't see how anyone could have not believed he was the leader.
 

Yet your argument can be dismissed with, "he never said he was their leader."  Why is this so hard to understand?  The leader of the reapers was revealed.. maybe.. who can make sense of it.  It's a horrible move plotwise.  But it doesn't break anything regarding the pecking order.  

Indeed.

In so much as the Reapers have ever claimed a leader, though that's a poor term for it, the only one claimed to be such was the Catalyst.

Sometimes to fully understand a story you have to make educated guesses based on things that are being heavily implied. Regarding not breaking anything regarding the pecking order, Sovereign said "we are each a nation, INDEPENDENT". Harbinger and Sovereign both refer to themselves as "I". The Reaper on Rannoch says "Harbinger speaks of you." Why would he do that if the Catalyst was controlling all Reapers?

[Dean_the_Young]

plfranke wrote...

From the codex "The Reaper called Harbinger is believed to be the oldest and largest in the Reaper armada."
"Alliance intelligence has tentatively identified Harbinger as one of the Reapers leading the attack on Earth." This combined with all the conversations and him being shown in the front at the end of mass effect 2 gives a lot of room to assign him the role of leader.

Uh, no. It really doesn't.

For the same reason that being the biggest person in the room doesn't make you a leader, or being a leader at one location doesn't imply you'd have authority at another.


This is actually an excellent case for illustrating people projecting what they wanted to hear (Harbinger must be important!), rather than what was actually said (Harbinger's role is one among many).

[Malanek]

Jamie9 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
I may be wrong about this, my memory is hazy, but if you switch subtitles on doesn't it state "Harbinger: So be it"?

No, it says "Child: So be it."

www.youtube.com/watch

Tah.

[Baa Baa]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Harbinger showed every trait of being the main bad guy for ME3, especially after Arrival

Indeed

Really? I thought it was Kai Leng

we already know Kai Leng was meant to be Bane lol

They need to redo the Batman trailer with Mass Effect lol.

Udina: What are you?
Kai Leng: I'm Cerberus' reckoning.

Shepard: Why didn't you just kill me?
Kai Leng: When Thessia is ashes... then you have my permission to die.

Kai Leng: Come to die with your crew?
Shepard: No, I came to stop you.

*Kai Leng grabs shepard out of his tactical cloak*

And so on

Kai Leng (looking for a box of Kepral's Krunch): WHERE'S THE CEREAL! YOU WOULDN'T GIVE IT TO AN ORDINARY CITIZEN!
That thread needs to get some more attention again

Modifié par Baa Baa, 19 août 2012 - 09:11 .

[M0keys]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

plfranke wrote...

From the codex "The Reaper called Harbinger is believed to be the oldest and largest in the Reaper armada."
"Alliance intelligence has tentatively identified Harbinger as one of the Reapers leading the attack on Earth." This combined with all the conversations and him being shown in the front at the end of mass effect 2 gives a lot of room to assign him the role of leader.

Uh, no. It really doesn't.

For the same reason that being the biggest person in the room doesn't make you a leader, or being a leader at one location doesn't imply you'd have authority at another.


This is actually an excellent case for illustrating people projecting what they wanted to hear (Harbinger must be important!), rather than what was actually said (Harbinger's role is one among many).

you're enslaving yourself to canon at the cost of understanding the elements of good storytelling.

[Jamie9]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Uh, no. It really doesn't.

For the same reason that being the biggest person in the room doesn't make you a leader, or being a leader at one location doesn't imply you'd have authority at another.

This is actually an excellent case for illustrating people projecting what they wanted to hear (Harbinger must be important!), rather than what was actually said (Harbinger's role is one among many).

It specifically says they think he's the leader. Harby lead the scout attack (the Collectors). Harby was constructing the human Reaper. Harby leads the attack on Earth. Harby leads the Reapers to the Milky Way and the Alpha Relay.

Harby is the biggest Reaper, with a unique look.

Harbinger is the leader of the Reapers, and technically, the primary antagonist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And... where does this prove that ME3 didn't utilize foreshadowing at all?

All of that was foreshadowed, and then completely and utterly dropped.

Right. And how does that prove ME3 didn't utilize foreshadowing at all?

As it is, you're arguing a fallacy of absolutes.

Well then tell me who else would decide "Yeah, you know all that work we did in ME2 and that big DLC? Let's scrap it and do something different."

People who actually recognized that ME2 and Arrival never claimed Harbinger was anything but, well, a harbinger?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

"Never get too attached to a plot" is very ambiguous. It means that the writers can decide to change the script from Mass Effect (the way we know and loved it) into something that makes absolutely no sense at all, like we got at the end. Then they can come out with a bunch of DLC that tries to explain all of that stuff so that it might make more sense.

And then there is that "Almighty Retcon" and "Writing via Twitter" -- the new story writing media where you get conflicting story plots from different writers within the company. "We distort. You decide." Hey but we see Faux News. We should be used to that by now.

[Jamie9]

Malanek999 wrote...
Tah.

Your welcome. To be fair, it does sound like a Reaper. If you listen to Harby then that voice there's a difference, but I think it's definitely implying the Catalyst is basically a Reaper.

Well, he is their collective consciousness.

[blueumi]

so we bought mass effect games for good story and choice well they killed both of those what is left

[plfranke]

M0keys wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

plfranke wrote...

From the codex "The Reaper called Harbinger is believed to be the oldest and largest in the Reaper armada."
"Alliance intelligence has tentatively identified Harbinger as one of the Reapers leading the attack on Earth." This combined with all the conversations and him being shown in the front at the end of mass effect 2 gives a lot of room to assign him the role of leader.

Uh, no. It really doesn't.

For the same reason that being the biggest person in the room doesn't make you a leader, or being a leader at one location doesn't imply you'd have authority at another.


This is actually an excellent case for illustrating people projecting what they wanted to hear (Harbinger must be important!), rather than what was actually said (Harbinger's role is one among many).

you're enslaving yourself to canon at the cost of understanding the elements of good storytelling.

Yeah I couldn't have said that any better myself Mokeys. It's nothing like being the biggest person in the room. It would be like only hearing one guy in a war constantly talking smack to you and then when it's finally time to start the battle he's the biggest, wisest guy, and leading the charge. Also your team has  TENTATIVELY IDENTIFIED HIM AS THE LEADER!

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And... where does this prove that ME3 didn't utilize foreshadowing at all?

All of that was foreshadowed, and then completely and utterly dropped.

Right. And how does that prove ME3 didn't utilize foreshadowing at all?

As it is, you're arguing a fallacy of absolutes.

Well then tell me who else would decide "Yeah, you know all that work we did in ME2 and that big DLC? Let's scrap it and do something different."

People who actually recognized that ME2 and Arrival never claimed Harbinger was anything but, well, a harbinger?

Ugh: THEY CHARACTERIZED him to be the leader, they surrounded him with signs reading "this guy is important"

If his name had any bearing on it, why wasn't Sovreign named "the unpopular fat one with achney we voted to stay behind on the most boring thankless task in history".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's a false definition. A 'true antagonist' is simply someone who is an antagonist to the player, regardless of efficacy or quality.

BioWare has become the antagonist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jamie9 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Uh, no. It really doesn't.

For the same reason that being the biggest person in the room doesn't make you a leader, or being a leader at one location doesn't imply you'd have authority at another.

This is actually an excellent case for illustrating people projecting what they wanted to hear (Harbinger must be important!), rather than what was actually said (Harbinger's role is one among many).

It specifically says they think he's the leader.

No, it doesn't. It specifically says

"Alliance
intelligence has tentatively identified Harbinger as one of the Reapers
leading the attack on Earth."

'One of' means that there are others. The qualifer at the end of the sentence limits the scope of the authority.

Harby lead the scout attack (the Collectors). Harby was constructing the human Reaper.

Harby lost both of those over the course of ME2.

Harby leads the attack on Earth.

Among other leaders.

Harby leads the Reapers to the Milky Way and the Alpha Relay.

No: Object Rho leads the Reapers to the Milky Way and Alpha Relay.

Harbinger just talks.

Harby is the biggest Reaper, with a unique look.

The ME2 ending implied all the Reapers had a unique look, until they streamlined it for ME3, but this is going to the 'biggest guy in the room' argument.

Harbinger is the leader of the Reapers, and technically, the primary antagonist.

The game never claims such.