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Jessica Merizan: "Don't get too attached to a plot"


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#201
Dean_the_Young

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Jamie9 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
'Almost everyone', in that case, projected more than what was said.

Yes, which demonstrates that BioWare failed to convey what they meant.

Except... all the other people who didn't fall for self-deception?

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own failures for jumping to conclusions, rather than pass the blame to others for not walking them by the hand far enough.

He's the main antagonist of ME2. Arrival was marketted as the bridge between ME2 and ME3. Harbinger reappears, once again being the face of the Reapers.

And only as the 'face'.

If they weren't bringing him back for ME3, they shouldn't have brought him back. Simply by him appearing (and surviving) gives the audience the impression he'll play a role in ME3.

And he does play a role in ME3. The only he claimed in Arrival: as a part of the Reaper hoarde.

#202
LucasShark

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...
Nor does it ever say "shepard is the protagonist" in thise words,

No, dramatic roles tend not to break the fourth wall like that. But we aren't arguing Harbinger's dramatic role: we're arguing his in-universe role, as supported in-universe.

nor does it say "This is joker, he can fly ships".

Joker's role is established pretty early on, by himself and others.


And yet you reject framing which was done, in exactly the same way for Harbinger.  DOUBLE STANDARD MUCH!?

NO, NOT REALLY.

FOR HARBINGER TO BE FRAMED AS THE LEADER OF THE REAPERS, SOMEONE IN THE GAME WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO CLAIM SUCH. NO ONE DOES, NOT EVEN THE CODEX.


Yes, they do, you've had the entry quoted to you.

You are asking that Harbinger come on the citadel news feed and say "I am harbinger, I lead the reapers, just wanted to let you all know", that is idiotic.

#203
Dean_the_Young

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LucasShark wrote...

HE is the one you interact with
HE is the one who speaks for the reapers
HE is the one who threatens you, specifically you, to your face

That's pretty bloody direct.

For a claim to being a leader? Not really.

#204
M0keys

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I don't know why you guys are trying to damage control for bioware here... this really isn't something you should dismiss. you should be interested in the best story possible. bioware made mistakes. that doesn't mean you should let them slide. if anything, you should tell Bioware just how important it is to you because you don't want them to fall on their face.

#205
LucasShark

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

HE is the one you interact with
HE is the one who speaks for the reapers
HE is the one who threatens you, specifically you, to your face

That's pretty bloody direct.

For a claim to being a leader? Not really.


"Hm... I have an important adress to deliver to the most important adversary we as a force have ever faced... I think I'll have greg from accounting deliver it"

No, that doesn't really work, especially in dramatic fiction, which this is.

#206
Dean_the_Young

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LucasShark wrote...

Yes, they do, you've had the entry quoted to you.

Lucas, the entry claimed that Harbinger was one of the leaders, as in among multiple, at Earth.

It did not claim Harbinger as the head hancho.

You are asking that Harbinger come on the citadel news feed and say "I am harbinger, I lead the reapers, just wanted to let you all know", that is idiotic.

No, I ask that anyone in the game, Reaper or otherwise, claim Harbinger as the singular leader of the Reapers.

#207
M0keys

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

HE is the one you interact with
HE is the one who speaks for the reapers
HE is the one who threatens you, specifically you, to your face

That's pretty bloody direct.

For a claim to being a leader? Not really.


it's like i'm in monty python and i just went to the argument room where there's a guy at a table who denies everything I say because it's his job

#208
LucasShark

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Yes, they do, you've had the entry quoted to you.

Lucas, the entry claimed that Harbinger was one of the leaders, as in among multiple, at Earth.

It did not claim Harbinger as the head hancho.

You are asking that Harbinger come on the citadel news feed and say "I am harbinger, I lead the reapers, just wanted to let you all know", that is idiotic.

No, I ask that anyone in the game, Reaper or otherwise, claim Harbinger as the singular leader of the Reapers.


Which wad done via framing and you reject that.

#209
plfranke

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M0keys wrote...

I don't know why you guys are trying to damage control for bioware here... this really isn't something you should dismiss. you should be interested in the best story possible. bioware made mistakes. that doesn't mean you should let them slide. if anything, you should tell Bioware just how important it is to you because you don't want them to fall on their face.

Yeah I really don't understand why Dean is arguing this. I kind of think he's trolling now as I don't see how anyone could believe what he's posting.

#210
zovoes

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M0keys wrote...

my real guess, though? they couldn't get the VA back for ME3 for some reason, and just decided to leave out Harbinger. but now they have to defend the mishap as if it was some kind of sacred plot decision they made.

why not just come out and say that they counld't get him back though? does everything they do have to be set up by them to blow up in there faces? it's like they are trying to mess this up as bad as they can or something. any sane person could and would just have said so if it was that not flub the thing to the point it is at now.

#211
Dean_the_Young

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LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

HE is the one you interact with
HE is the one who speaks for the reapers
HE is the one who threatens you, specifically you, to your face

That's pretty bloody direct.

For a claim to being a leader? Not really.


"Hm... I have an important adress to deliver to the most important adversary we as a force have ever faced... I think I'll have greg from accounting deliver it"

No, that doesn't really work, especially in dramatic fiction, which this is.

Except, of course, that it happens regularly across Mass Effect?

We run across countless representatives of various groups across the series, but very few of them are the actual leaders of their groups. No one at any point in the series claims that Saren was leading Sovereign, simply because we talked to him more often.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 août 2012 - 09:35 .


#212
yukon fire

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They failed at making Mass Effect 3, should we really be surprised that they continue to fail at almost everything else about it too?

#213
Jamie9

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except... all the other people who didn't fall for self-deception?

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own failures for jumping to conclusions, rather than pass the blame to others for not walking them by the hand far enough.


I don't see how I'm trying to pass responsibility. Obviously, I misjudged, as Harbinger DOES NOT play a big role in ME3. I thought he would, and he didn't. Hence, yes, I was wrong.

I claim the writers failed because it seems the majority thought Harbinger would return in a major role. If a majority is led to believe something, and is then disappointed, I would call that a failure.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And he does play a role in ME3. The only he claimed in Arrival: as a part of the Reaper hoarde.

I expected him to play the same role he did in ME2: the voice of the Reapers. From a storytelling standpoint, why drop that?

It would be absurd if Harbinger followed you around the galaxy, but surely have him taunt you over Earth? Claim victory? Anything.

#214
M0keys

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zovoes wrote...

M0keys wrote...

my real guess, though? they couldn't get the VA back for ME3 for some reason, and just decided to leave out Harbinger. but now they have to defend the mishap as if it was some kind of sacred plot decision they made.

why not just come out and say that they counld't get him back though? does everything they do have to be set up by them to blow up in there faces? it's like they are trying to mess this up as bad as they can or something. any sane person could and would just have said so if it was that not flub the thing to the point it is at now.


it's just the way big companies are put together, really.

they have entire staffs who are paid just to keep the company from looking weak or malevolent. pr department. my grandfather was a pr guy back in his day.

#215
Dean_the_Young

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M0keys wrote...

I don't know why you guys are trying to damage control for bioware here... this really isn't something you should dismiss. you should be interested in the best story possible. bioware made mistakes. that doesn't mean you should let them slide. if anything, you should tell Bioware just how important it is to you because you don't want them to fall on their face.

So why ring up false accusations, then?

#216
plfranke

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zovoes wrote...

M0keys wrote...

my real guess, though? they couldn't get the VA back for ME3 for some reason, and just decided to leave out Harbinger. but now they have to defend the mishap as if it was some kind of sacred plot decision they made.

why not just come out and say that they counld't get him back though? does everything they do have to be set up by them to blow up in there faces? it's like they are trying to mess this up as bad as they can or something. any sane person could and would just have said so if it was that not flub the thing to the point it is at now.

that's the thing. his voice actor was there, he was the voice of the wounded batarian in the hospital...

#217
M0keys

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

I don't know why you guys are trying to damage control for bioware here... this really isn't something you should dismiss. you should be interested in the best story possible. bioware made mistakes. that doesn't mean you should let them slide. if anything, you should tell Bioware just how important it is to you because you don't want them to fall on their face.

So why ring up false accusations, then?


sorry?

#218
plfranke

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

I don't know why you guys are trying to damage control for bioware here... this really isn't something you should dismiss. you should be interested in the best story possible. bioware made mistakes. that doesn't mean you should let them slide. if anything, you should tell Bioware just how important it is to you because you don't want them to fall on their face.

So why ring up false accusations, then?

what are you talking about?

#219
M0keys

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plfranke wrote...

zovoes wrote...

M0keys wrote...

my real guess, though? they couldn't get the VA back for ME3 for some reason, and just decided to leave out Harbinger. but now they have to defend the mishap as if it was some kind of sacred plot decision they made.

why not just come out and say that they counld't get him back though? does everything they do have to be set up by them to blow up in there faces? it's like they are trying to mess this up as bad as they can or something. any sane person could and would just have said so if it was that not flub the thing to the point it is at now.

that's the thing. his voice actor was there, he was the voice of the wounded batarian in the hospital...


wow, then... i.. have absolutely no idea at all. they really did decide to leave him out afterall? they forgot to give him lines?

the nature of this game is more baffling by the day...

#220
Jamie9

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M0keys wrote...
it's just the way big companies are put together, really.

they have entire staffs who are paid just to keep the company from looking weak or malevolent. pr department. my grandfather was a pr guy back in his day.


Yeah, and from my PoV, Jessica Merizan seems to be quite bad at PR. I have to say I have nothing against her personally, I do not know her (in case anyone wants to flame me for this).

Successful PR has you "like" the person. You like what they say, you agree with it. Hence it makes you like the company a little more.

On the BSN, we continuously have threads containing PR comments, and they're harming the company image, not helping it. Does anyone take what BioWare's PR says seriously any more? Not many, because they are that bad.

Modifié par Jamie9, 19 août 2012 - 09:41 .


#221
yukon fire

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M0keys wrote...

plfranke wrote...

zovoes wrote...

M0keys wrote...

my real guess, though? they couldn't get the VA back for ME3 for some reason, and just decided to leave out Harbinger. but now they have to defend the mishap as if it was some kind of sacred plot decision they made.

why not just come out and say that they counld't get him back though? does everything they do have to be set up by them to blow up in there faces? it's like they are trying to mess this up as bad as they can or something. any sane person could and would just have said so if it was that not flub the thing to the point it is at now.

that's the thing. his voice actor was there, he was the voice of the wounded batarian in the hospital...


wow, then... i.. have absolutely no idea at all. they really did decide to leave him out afterall? they forgot to give him lines?

the nature of this game is more baffling by the day...


Must have been paying by the line, actually that explains a lot of the dialogue failure. 

#222
Dean_the_Young

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Jamie9 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except... all the other people who didn't fall for self-deception?

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own failures for jumping to conclusions, rather than pass the blame to others for not walking them by the hand far enough.


I don't see how I'm trying to pass responsibility.

By going 'Bioware failed', rather than 'myself and others made a mistake of our own.'

I claim the writers failed because it seems the majority thought Harbinger would return in a major role. If a majority is led to believe something, and is then disappointed, I would call that a failure.

First support that you had a majority: then support why they had reason to believe a major role was in store.

I expected him to play the same role he did in ME2: the voice of the Reapers. From a storytelling standpoint, why drop that?

This is much fairer, and a much better question than the leadership questions others are fixating on. For this, I applaud you... and agree. As a Voice, Harbinger was underutilized.

It would be absurd if Harbinger followed you around the galaxy, but surely have him taunt you over Earth? Claim victory? Anything.

I can think of a few things.

For appearnces, Earth 1, possibly Rannoch, and Thessia would have been workable as well: the first if Harbinger had been reported as in-route to try and get Shepard, only for the Normandy to swoop in last moment for the rescue. For Rannoch, at the heroic-high midpoint of the game, if the victorious Geth/Migrant fleet were able to force a retreat. And for Thessia, for Harbinger to come in at the end, rather than that nameless Reaper.


Reaper propoganda could also have been used: news reports on the Citadel, or broadcasting indoctrination device loud-speakers.

One possibility would have been the QEM transmitter: if Harbinger/the Reapers had captured one on Earth, with a direct link to the Normandy. After the story missions, Shepard could have a verbal dual with Harbinger.

#223
plfranke

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Jamie9 wrote...

M0keys wrote...
it's just the way big companies are put together, really.

they have entire staffs who are paid just to keep the company from looking weak or malevolent. pr department. my grandfather was a pr guy back in his day.


Yeah, and from my PoV, Jessica Merizan seems to be quite bad at PR. I have to say I have nothing against her personally, I do not know her (in case anyone wants to flame me for this).

Successful PR has you "like" the person. You like what they say, you agree with it. Hence it makes you like the company a little more.

On the BSN, we continuously have threads containing PR comments, and they're harming the company image, not helping it. Does anyone take what BioWare's PR says seriously any more? Not many, because they are that bad.

But you have to admit the writing staff has put them in a really tough spot. It was the writers and developers that made pre release promises they couldn't keep. That's not jessica merizan's fault, but she's the one that has to answer for it. It's not her fault that we got the starchild, but she's the one that has to answer for it. I honestly couldn't imagine anyone being able to salvage the situation she's been put in.

#224
plfranke

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My God Dean can you please stop making every single post like that, it takes up unneccesary space and it's just time consuming I'm considering just starting to skip your posts all together.

#225
The_Shootist

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Who is Jessica Merizan?