251 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I understand wanting player agency, but honestly, there are going to be things that happen within the game-world that are outside our character's control.

Morrigan finding a way to do whatever the heck she wants is one of those things. She's Morrigan. My Warden can choose not to be a part of it, but it won't stop Morrigan from being Morrigan and doing what Morrigan does - which is be awesome enough to bypass your decision not to help and make her own way regardless.

That's not a decision that's out of the player's control however.

The warden who makes the killing blow is destroyed along with the soul of the demon - Fact

There are only 3 ( 2 elgible) wardens in all of ferelden at the time - Fact

Riordan is far too tainted to complete the ritual - speculation

Riordan falls before the ritual is complete - Fact (Alistair - "You know this ritual won't work if you go and get your head squashed first")

Secondary warden will not sleep with her unless persuaded by the warden - Fact

Morrigan states in witch hunt (provided someone else made the sacrifice) that the ritual was a failure - Fact ( Morrigan - "You denied me at redcliffe and that was the end of it, I imagine you believed my goal a selfish one, now you shall never know")

Assurance that the child is not an Ogb - Fact ( Morrigan - "Not all children are born through magic warden, make of that what you will")

Making the Ogb canon is Impossible without a full retcon which I can Assure you will not be taken in with open arms, especially after the whole me3 debacle over choices not mattering and 'space magic'

[Blackrising]

Short answer? Yes. Yes, I would feel incredibly cheated.
And if they decide to make it canont that Alistair is the father, not even a dragon could keep me from letting Bioware feel my wrath.
Going through with the dark ritual was such an important choice that having my decision completly disregarded would definitely feel like being cheated.

[Zanallen]

Morrigan having a child? Fine, whatever. Morrigan having an OGB if no one did the ritual with her? Hell no. That would be stupid. Which is why Bioware should just make Morrigan a villain, kill her off and be done with it.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^
Life's not fair, is it?

I... well, I shall never be king.

And you... you shall never see the light of another day! You...

Wins thread! One of my favorite villains of all time, possibly tied with Ursula.

(To be totally honest, I only recognized this because I watched it again recently.)

[nightscrawl]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I understand wanting player agency, but honestly, there are going to be things that happen within the game-world that are outside our character's control.

Morrigan finding a way to do whatever the heck she wants is one of those things. She's Morrigan. My Warden can choose not to be a part of it, but it won't stop Morrigan from being Morrigan and doing what Morrigan does - which is be awesome enough to bypass your decision not to help and make her own way regardless.

I would only accept this if it was explained.

Either she used blood magic on Alistiar (or Loghain or Riordan), coerced them in some other way, or something along those lines. I will even go as far as saying that it's even acceptable (to me, I'm sure others would be pissed about this) to have it revealed that a male PC Warden did have sex with her but did not remember it.

She was really specific that it had to be that night (on the eve of battle), and as those were the only other available Grey Wardens, some other method seems a bit far-fetched. Of course, other than trying to convince a male PC Warden, or trying to get the PC Warden to convince Alistair (since we all know he despises her), I don't see why it would even concern our PC if she went after Loghain or Riordan.

That said, if she did do any of those above things, then any kind of sacrifice would not have happened because the "soul" would have gone into the zygote. So a universe where there was a sacrifice cannot coexist with a universe where Morrigan was impregnated that night and obtained her Old God soul the next day. After seeing that no one had to die, your Warden, now knowing how it all worked would have come to one of two conclusions: (1) Morrigan did something, and did manage to conceive that night, or (2) Riordan was mistaken or possibly purposely gave false information (reasons for which I can come up with, but won't elaborate on here.)

The only other thing I will accept is if Morrigan's information was a bit incorrect, and the Archdemon's soul would have gravitated to any new (relatively nearby) conception, regardless if the father was a Grey Warden. She talked about it being "pure" and such, well that would apply to any pregnancy. She could have had sex with just about anyone to have that scenario work. I highly doubt that Redcliffe lacked willing soldiers who thought they were going to their death the next day. But again, your Warden, unless she had the intelligence of a mailbox, should have made note of something when no one failed to die upon the Archdemon's death.


But all of this is moot because of this...

David Gaider wrote...

May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 août 2012 - 11:34 .

[Yrkoon]

They don't need to paint themselves into a corner by making her a 'villian'  (or a heroine for that matter). They could, instead, form a plot where it's Her vs. Flemeth, and then allow us to choose sides.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 22 août 2012 - 11:44 .

[Lord Gremlin]

In DAO the Dark Ritual choice felt like a really huge, major 2-way branch. Felt like in the end it will lead to either return of Old God rule and magic rule or the opposite - Chantry raising to even more power or something. It's incredibly disappointing that in the end we saw nothing. Honestly, that's a setup for an entire game, or more specifically 2 games in one - based on this choice.
To be honest, if Fast Jimmy's post on the first page of this thread comes true, there will be no reason to buy DA3 at all, even on sale for $1.

But, it just occurred to me... What if Flemeth found a sleeping Old God and managed to put his soul into a child - not Morrigan's. What if she had indeed a backup plan which leads to creation of a baby with sould of Old God - but not Urthemiel's soul and not Morrigan's baby?

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 22 août 2012 - 12:19 .

[Renmiri1]

What if Flemeth IS an Old God, born of a ritual on one of the previous Blights ?

[jaikss]

No,I wouldn't.I would actually prefer they make the OGB canon,even though my "canon" warden denied Morrigan.The story simply has more potential with an OGB than without,same as with Alistair.The same warden that denied Morrigan had alistair take the killing blow,yet in every nongame media Alistair is the ruling king.So in future installments Bioware can either

A)Keep everything Alistair related neatly tucked away in Fereldan,outside of few dialogue nudges "see?your decisions do matter!".
B)Trust I'll get over my bruised sense of entitlement,and actually do something with the fact that there's a Grey Warden(you know,the order that absolutely does not get involved in politics) sitting on the throne.

Being able to shape the future of Thedas with our decisions is a great concept,but in practice,until game developing becomes so inexpensive that they'll be able to develop several games based on our decisions,I'll take a strong plot overarching several games over a handful of import nudges (ie sidequests/cameos).

[EricHVela]

I would feel relieved if BWE dumped the whole import-your-decisions-so-you-can-see-an-inane-cameo gimmick.

It wouldn't bother me one bit for them to just pick a canon when starting the next Dragon Age in lieu of spending time developing game resources and stories that keep looking backwards instead of forward.

EDIT: What jaikss said.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 22 août 2012 - 12:57 .

[Potato Cat]

Renmiri1 wrote...

What if Flemeth IS an Old God, born of a ritual on one of the previous Blights ?

But all the other Grey Wardens have died after killing the Archdemon.

[David Gaider]

Emzamination wrote...
Making the Ogb canon is Impossible without a full retcon which I can Assure you will not be taken in with open arms, especially after the whole me3 debacle over choices not mattering and 'space magic'

While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental. So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

Whether how the Dark Ritual affects future games is considered sufficient is a different matter completely. Considering that some people have expressed that the existence of the OGB should be the entire plot around which such a game revolves, it's perhaps unlikely. That kind of expectation can't be helped. Regardless, the choice will neither be ignored nor made into a footnote.

[Androme]

David Gaider wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Making the Ogb canon is Impossible without a full retcon which I can Assure you will not be taken in with open arms, especially after the whole me3 debacle over choices not mattering and 'space magic'

While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental. So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

Whether how the Dark Ritual affects future games is considered sufficient is a different matter completely. Considering that some people have expressed that the existence of the OGB should be the entire plot around which such a game revolves, it's perhaps unlikely. That kind of expectation can't be helped. Regardless, the choice will neither be ignored nor made into a footnote.

Hey.

Just a quick question, which I don't know if you ''are allowed to'' answer or not, or even if you want to;). But will the above quoted story be a part of the main storyline in the future, or will it be something secondary? You said it wouldn't be made into a footnote, I take this as it won't be like one of those side-quests in DA2 where you would return somebodys pants to them for 50 silver?

[phimseto]

Considering all the ways that I've spited Morrigan and Flemeth, I'm definitely curious to see how this circles back on me! :-D

And just in case you're of a mind to answer or at least hint at...will we, as insinuated at the end of DA2, see the Warden and the Champion teaming up in a "Thedas' Finest" bit of awesomeness?  

Modifié par phimseto, 22 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[Androme]

phimseto wrote...

Considering all the ways that I've spited Morrigan and Flemeth, I'm definitely curious to see how this circles back on me! :-D

And just in case you're of a mind to answer or at least hint at...will we, as insinuated at the end of DA2, see the Warden and the Champion teaming up in a "Thedas' Finest" bit of awesomeness?  

Thedas Finest, please. Please do this.

[Huntress]

David Gaider wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Making the Ogb canon is Impossible without a full retcon which I can Assure you will not be taken in with open arms, especially after the whole me3 debacle over choices not mattering and 'space magic'

While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental. So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

Whether how the Dark Ritual affects future games is considered sufficient is a different matter completely. Considering that some people have expressed that the existence of the OGB should be the entire plot around which such a game revolves, it's perhaps unlikely. That kind of expectation can't be helped. Regardless, the choice will neither be ignored nor made into a footnote.

Thank you! Really thats all i really wanted to know! it would be really dumb killing loghain and then finding morrigan saying Alistair or the female warden could be the father of this child.. err what?

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You down with OGB?

Yeah, you know me.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 août 2012 - 03:34 .

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental. So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

Whether how the Dark Ritual affects future games is considered sufficient is a different matter completely. Considering that some people have expressed that the existence of the OGB should bethe entire plot around which such a game revolves, it's perhaps unlikely. That kind of expectation can't be helped. Regardless, the choice will neither be ignored nor made into a footnote.

Haha I just love when forum-isms get picked up the the devs.

Thanks for this post. Another quote for my collection!

Androme wrote...

Just a quick question, which I don't know if you ''are allowed to'' answer or not, or even if you want to;). But will the above quoted story be a part of the main storyline in the future, or will it be something secondary? You said it wouldn't be made into a footnote, I take this as it won't be like one of those side-quests in DA2 where you would return somebodys pants to them for 50 silver?

I took this to mean that it wouldn't be a simple cameo (by Morrigan, with or without said son) or something equally minor. However, I also don't think that something as major as an entire section of a game (like going into the mage tower or the Deep Roads in DAO) is likely either.

The key of course is having extra content for those who made that decision, while not ignoring those who didn't. A good comparison might be the Nathaniel-alive import into DA2. If you didn't import a DAA save, or imported one where Nate was dead you get Fool's Gold. If he was alive or you chose the Hero of Ferelden preset you get Finding Nathaniel. Both of these have basically the same content: you go into a section of the Deep Roads, kill some darkspawn, get some loot, and leave. The extra tidbits when you talk to Nate, and seeing your sibling (if a Warden) are the chief differences.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 août 2012 - 04:01 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You down with OGB?

Yeah, you know me.

Reported for thread derailing by stupid funny rap puns

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 août 2012 - 03:43 .

[Mr Fixit]

nightscrawl wrote...

I would only accept this if it was explained.

Either she used blood magic on Alistiar (or Loghain or Riordan), coerced them in some other way, or something along those lines. I will even go as far as saying that it's even acceptable (to me, I'm sure others would be pissed about this) to have it revealed that a male PC Warden did have sex with her but did not remember it.

I have pretty much opposite views. If they're gonna make something canon, possibly invalidating previous player choices, I'd rather BioWare just said so. Look, we've decided it serves our storytelling purposes best to assume this player choice happened. Since every DA game uses a different protagonist, I would have no problems accepting a retcon. It wouldn't impact my DA3 character in any way.

Explaining the "course correction" with some silly behind-the-scenes magic wand, however, would have a retroactive impact on my DA:O character, invalidating a choice he made in that game.

That's a pretty big difference in my opinion. 

[Renmiri1]

Elfman wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

What if Flemeth IS an Old God, born of a ritual on one of the previous Blights ?

But all the other Grey Wardens have died after killing the Archdemon.

Did they ?

Morrigan could have killed the Warden to make it look like there was a Ultimate Sacrifice and hide any hint of the Dark Ritual... Who is to say someone else didn't do it with one of the previous 4 Wardens ?

@David Gaider - :wub: ty for answering our humble thread! 

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental. So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

And of course you have the fact that the Dark Ritual has 2 seemingly important outcomes- not only creating an Old God Baby, but potentially resulting in the first Warden to ever survive killing the Archdemon and ending a Blight, whereby that Warden can possibly continue on to go with Morrigan into the Eluvian.

Yet Awakening already disregarded this fact in allowing every Warden, Dark Ritual or Ultimate Sacrifice, to be imported forward, even if that was due to technical issues.

I just hope that all of the permutations of that choice are actually dealt with in a meaningful way if they're going to be dealt with at all. I don't expect a whole game centered around that choice, but I'm expecting something more than how Mass Effect handled Ash/Kaiden in ME2 or the Rachnii in ME3.  Something more along the lines of The WItcher 2's Iorveth/Roche choice would be great, even if on a smaller scale- just have genuinely unique content.

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 août 2012 - 04:09 .

[Fast Jimmy]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You down with OGB?

Yeah, you know me.

Reported for thread derailing by stupid funny rap puns

Wow, seriously? You may need to lighten up a little, dude. 

Regardless, this answers the question orthe thread, it seems. They will not railroad it to one outcome. How that outcome plays out or is relevant is up for debate, but it you did the U.S., it will not be hand waived. 

[Renmiri1]

Brockololly wrote...
** snip **

And of course you have the fact that the Dark Ritual has 2 seemingly important outcomes- not only creating an Old God Baby, but potentially resulting in the first Warden to ever survive killing the Archdemon and ending a Blight

** snip **

Riordan died and by being the oldest he would have been the one who was expected to sacrifice himself.

I expect that either your male Warden or Alistair / Loghain would tell the other Wardens that Riordan was sacrificed. To avoid answering some embarassing questions and putting the entire order after Morrigan and her baby.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 août 2012 - 04:17 .