396 réponses à ce sujet

[WaffleCrab]

Star fury wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

No. There are not two sides of varying correctness to every debate. It's possible that one side is simply wrong.

I am sorry, what did you say? I was too busy having fun with my old build to hear your meaty parts flap around(That is a reference to borderlands, for people who dont get references.)

But i should thank you also. You sparked a new series.

LOL, you made a video in order to say that somebody is wrong on the internet?

Umad because you didnt think of it I wanted to make a point. plus what, it took me like 40 minutes only to do that. but yeah most people here dont get a point unless there isnt a video off it.

also he was a special case

Modifié par WaffleCrab, 22 août 2012 - 07:40 .

[WaffleCrab]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

No. There are not two sides of varying correctness to every debate. It's possible that one side is simply wrong.

I am sorry, what did you say? I was too busy having fun with my old build to hear your meaty parts flap around(That is a reference to borderlands, for people who dont get references.)

But i should thank you also. You sparked a new series.

LMAO.

First things first, I am not a Mexican. No idea where that came from.

Secondly, did you even READ what I said? I said that EVEN THOUGH I COULD TAKE SAID BUILD AND DO QUITE WELL WITH IT it was still a TERRIBLE build. And still is.

Thirdly, really? FBWGG...? Camping behind the counters? Yeah that's extremely difficult. It is a moot point though because like I said, it's NOTHING to do with how well/not well you did with it. It's to do with whether a different build in the hands of a player of equal skill level would result in a better score consistently. In the case of that build, the answer is a definitive YES, because that build/setup SUCKS.

First things first, i did not want to spend forever making the vid, fbwgg fills lobbies faster, second, if you actually watch the vid, i am not counter humping all the time.

And no i dont find it as a horrible. build

[nicethugbert]

Not a single person in this thread who thinks the OP was carried has stated what happens when someone scores "low" in a match. Unless you guys can demonstrate the connection between scores and some other event then you don't have a point and you're just making things up.

Incidentally, I've played matches with people who routinely score over 100k while I score below 50k and those matches were not any faster than the one where none of us score over 100k and I score above 50k.

So, I'm still failing to see the importance of score. Score is not related to anything at all in this game. Score in this game is PvP on the sly.

[brian_breed]

nicethugbert wrote...

Not a single person in this thread who thinks the OP was carried has stated what happens when someone scores "low" in a match. Unless you guys can demonstrate the connection between scores and some other event then you don't have a point and you're just making things up.

Incidentally, I've played matches with people who routinely score over 100k while I score below 50k and those matches were not any faster than the one where none of us score over 100k and I score above 50k.

So, I'm still failing to see the importance of score. Score is not related to anything at all in this game. Score in this game is PvP on the sly.

I'll put my cards on the table, because your initial point is invalid. I posted much much earlier in the thread that if you were merely stripping shields and reviving, with zero kills, you would still break 30k. Assists grant nearly as many points as kills, because they 1:1 relay damage done to health and armor.

Kills give you overkill points. They grant the total damage done with the last hit on a target. Top of the scoreboard means most damage done, even if a good chunk of it is overkill.

It's not the whole story. You're right there. But the problem with a significant gap between top on the scoreboard and low on the scoreboard is that everyone needs to kill a certain amount of enemies in a certain amount of time if they don't want to get swamped - especially if, as in a Gold lobby, the players really need to stay clustered. 

The biggest accusation here is that the Paladin is a utility class which, no matter how you spec it out, can and should be a top scorer, even if the Paladin only uses abilities. If you're not wrecking with a Paladin, you're doing something wrong.

[Oggy666]

Star fury wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

I was thinking in favor of the OP, but if his score was 33000 after all the Difficulty and Extraction bonus(possible +25000) added... then he has been undoubtly carried.

Let's say it was 8 000 points directly from kills and assists. On gold. When prime alone gives you 2 000. But but he "tanked" and "supported"!

You missed few things:

1. This was not unknown/unknown, so ovarall exp on match is probably below 300K (maybe 270K average)
2. The bonuses are distributed to all 4 players, not 25K to each.
3. Dagger - Piranha - snap freeze - geth = not everyone will go rambo on the geth, when others do not leave
the round hall - thus lack of long range weapon will grant lower score, if not shield tanking it could be higher,
but carried...I don't think so.

The other 2 players needed constant reviving and no one was doing objectives - reason why I think the match
did not go very well, so GI blamed the lowest score - which was false.

[ElementL09]

If you were a distraction/medic then your basically playing a support role with the Paladin that game. I would usually think a class like that could be used more offensively because of snap freeze and the shield, plus you did have the Piranha.

[Vikingo]

 
I find the whole concept of "tanking" or playing "support" contraproductive.

Now before I get the combined rage of all the passionate "support" players in this thread let me explain.

The only time I would find "tanking" helpful would be on Objective waves to redirect enemy attention away from the objective.
On all the other waves the teams prime focus should be to deplete the enemy spawn pool, i.e. killing things as quickly as possible.
Now the OP said that he helped on the objectives waves and was acting decoy on the other waves.... 

[Kaithalas]

Nissun wrote...

He outscored you, simply because he could kill faster or finish enemies faster than you. If you were intentionally acting as support instead of artillery, that's normal. You weren't carried.

Also, Geth Infiltrators and Furies (played by competent players of course) are hard to outscore.

But yeah, ignore the idiots.

Nissun, dudebro how did you get the N7 paladin as your forum picture!

[Fighter084]

Tech combos are essentially the bread and butter of that unit unless you're speccing for the shield. Just doing those should have given OP a higher score but considering it IS Dagger... Paladin is much more suited for close and mid-range combat due to incinerate travel time and snap freeze range limit. Also considering Piranha is not really suitable for long range like Dagger's open space, choke still doesn't make up for the drop in damage at long range.

An example of a carry is the game I just played. A low N7 200's (I know that really doesn't matter much) with carnifex V using a Phoenix Vanguard. He was bottom of scores with less than half of the 3rd guy on the scores. Constant deaths while playing White/Geth/Platinum. It was a pain reviving him and watching him run off/charge into clusters of enemies and dying there AGAIN. We extracted once and everyone died after completing wave 10 objectives on the second game.

[nicethugbert]

brian_breed wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Not a single person in this thread who thinks the OP was carried has stated what happens when someone scores "low" in a match. Unless you guys can demonstrate the connection between scores and some other event then you don't have a point and you're just making things up.

Incidentally, I've played matches with people who routinely score over 100k while I score below 50k and those matches were not any faster than the one where none of us score over 100k and I score above 50k.

So, I'm still failing to see the importance of score. Score is not related to anything at all in this game. Score in this game is PvP on the sly.

I'll put my cards on the table, because your initial point is invalid. I posted much much earlier in the thread that if you were merely stripping shields and reviving, with zero kills, you would still break 30k. Assists grant nearly as many points as kills, because they 1:1 relay damage done to health and armor.

Kills give you overkill points. They grant the total damage done with the last hit on a target. Top of the scoreboard means most damage done, even if a good chunk of it is overkill.

It's not the whole story. You're right there. But the problem with a significant gap between top on the scoreboard and low on the scoreboard is that everyone needs to kill a certain amount of enemies in a certain amount of time if they don't want to get swamped - especially if, as in a Gold lobby, the players really need to stay clustered. 

The biggest accusation here is that the Paladin is a utility class which, no matter how you spec it out, can and should be a top scorer, even if the Paladin only uses abilities. If you're not wrecking with a Paladin, you're doing something wrong.

Again, no connection between score and anything else has been established.  All we have now is score for score's sake.

[defleshing]

thugburt you have no clue how to play this game. all you opinions are irrelevant mr i can't handle aggro.

Modifié par defleshing, 22 août 2012 - 10:25 .

[LuckyBullet95]

BlessedSoldier wrote...

PsychoticBiotic wrote...

33 is low. Reviving is no excuse for that.

You have never tanked/supported.

On my Paladin I always top the scoreboard, then again I always top the scoreboard in PUGs... I also come 2nd or worst case 3rd in Private matches with Team AreleX members and that's with playing support. The shield seems to draw aggro from teammates, might aswell, just gets them closer to you so you can beat the hell out of them with it.

Sorry but OP, like it or not got carried. 33k is too low even with non-slayer classes that play medic and capper. If you aren't killing stuff then everything you do tactically doesn't matter. Not saying it is a killing game but yeah, you actually do better with four slayers then with three slayers and one support.

[synapsefire]

People seem to not understand the concept of tanking in ME3 so here's a short explanation. Tanking generally mean a Vanguard with cyclonic modulator pulling big aggro and weapon fire. If you don't net huge scores doing this you are doing something wrong.

Modifié par synapsefire, 22 août 2012 - 11:05 .

[LuckyBullet95]

nicethugbert I was in a public Glacier game yesterday and scored 120k whilst everyone else scored 40k, I was running and gunning, they weren't. The match took 16 minutes and 41 seconds without rockets... room of shame campers actually helped me by staying out of the way though to be fair (Demolisher wasn't stealing Nades from the ammo boxes/they helped forced spawns topside for me to clear). I don't think any of them even had a 25 kill medal and none of them did objectives.

Modifié par LuckyBullet95, 22 août 2012 - 10:38 .

[LuckyBullet95]

Oggy666 wrote...

no one was doing objectives.

OP did a good thing there but objectives is only 25% of a match. For 3 quarters of it he was tanking (and failing at that otherwise his teammates wouldn't have gone down). I'm not trying to sound like an elitist but there is a very thin line between being carried and people killwhoring. Basically OP played medic to the people who suffered the aggro he was meant to be pulling.

[synapsefire]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

nicethugbert I was in a public Glacier game yesterday and scored 120k whilst everyone else scored 40k, I was running and gunning, they weren't. The match took 16 minutes and 41 seconds without rockets... room of shame campers actually helped me by staying out of the way though to be fair (Demolisher wasn't stealing Nades from the ammo boxes/they helped forced spawns topside for me to clear). I don't think any of them even had a 25 kill medal and none of them did objectives.

40k in 16 minutes is a clear indication that none of your teammates were carries. They're not great players but that's to be expected in PuG lobbies.

[Computron2000]

brian_breed wrote...
I'll put my cards on the table, because your initial point is invalid. I posted much much earlier in the thread that if you were merely stripping shields and reviving, with zero kills, you would still break 30k. Assists grant nearly as many points as kills, because they 1:1 relay damage done to health and armor.

As you yourself mentioned, you get nothing from stripping shields. Only if you actually damage the health or armor

[LuckyBullet95]

synapsefire wrote...

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

nicethugbert I was in a public Glacier game yesterday and scored 120k whilst everyone else scored 40k, I was running and gunning, they weren't. The match took 16 minutes and 41 seconds without rockets... room of shame campers actually helped me by staying out of the way though to be fair (Demolisher wasn't stealing Nades from the ammo boxes/they helped forced spawns topside for me to clear). I don't think any of them even had a 25 kill medal and none of them did objectives.

40k in 16 minutes is a clear indication that none of your teammates were carries. They're not great players but that's to be expected in PuG lobbies.

Not reallly, not only did I do three times the killing but also was stuck to do all the objectives, and with me running and gunning they also got much less aggro. I did everything a team player should, including getting multiple revives if I happened to pass by the Room of Shame. You shouldn't be pulling off 120k points on Glacier, it is that simple. 40k is actually a not bad score (it's a score typically landed during full party speedruns on that map) but the enemy typically gravitated to them whilst I made my way round the map.

For campers they could've been much worse, though without the camping I've pulled off 11/12 minute extractions... not that this matters given that my point was that I not only tripled their scores but also did most of the work including aggro-shifting, slaying, objective capping and reviving (less so given how all three were obviously together, I figured they could revive each other without me going out of my way.

Modifié par LuckyBullet95, 22 août 2012 - 11:24 .

[synapsefire]

A group of four descent players can score 80k/60k/50k/40k respectively. There is no way to claim that someone was carried in this game just based off of score. 

There are some scores though that paints a clearer picture and it is particularly the case when the separation between the individual scores is big and the game is a long one.

Heres a few games from saturday night:  I was rolling my Drell Adept FQE and GE. I do not remember if I felt I was carrying or any other specifics from any of the games. I grabbed the screens but never bothered posting.


Can you spot the leech?



Clearly two people are carrying here. Moving on.



It's not completely clear judging from points but given that it's a fairly long game these scores are just not cut for Gold. Sorry.


I know from experience that most people pugging Gold probably shouldn't and score is often an indication of that. But like I said there are exceptions and other factors to concider when looking at score; time, separation between scores etc. 

Scoreboards are part of any games dna, if it makes you feel bad about yourself don't look at it. If you continually rank in at the bottom, chances are you have room for improvement. Claims of playing support is not going to change that.

Modifié par synapsefire, 23 août 2012 - 01:58 .

[Oggy666]

LuckyBullet95 wrote...

Oggy666 wrote...

no one was doing objectives.

OP did a good thing there but objectives is only 25% of a match. For 3 quarters of it he was tanking (and failing at that otherwise his teammates wouldn't have gone down). I'm not trying to sound like an elitist but there is a very thin line between being carried and people killwhoring. Basically OP played medic to the people who suffered the aggro he was meant to be pulling.

Maybe, maybe not - if they were dying while sniping from windows, if the GI did care about reviving. We don't have video record. 3 objective matches - OP gained next to 0exp, GI stacked about 20K.

Question: was OP carried with 33K? Dealt not highest damage regarding class potential, but again:
objectives, reviving, CC loadout on bad map, pre-set map.

1st 105K, last 33K, others could have about 60-80K. Could score higher, but carried?

I played yesterday on UUGhost: scored 1st  170K,  2nd  90K, 3rd  80K, last had 40K.
Tough match, 40K is low, but helped a lot in game, no one was carried!

[LuckyBullet95]

synapsefire judgnig from the classes used by the players you were with you can safely assume that you carried the last game aswell. 3 Infiltrators? No matter your actual Adept, Infiltrators are slayers and should easily be able to keep up with an Adept. The scores there should've been fairly balanced. The other two you summed up quite well. It's nice when you get an actually decent randomer. Very rare though.

oggy it doesn't matter the score of the other players, a close quarters loadout shouldn''t be played from a sniper perch because everyone else is there. He'd be pulling aggro much better by heading into spawns and shield bashing, snap freezing and shooting everything in it.

The three snipers should've been reviving one another if they were snipers at all and if they weren't then the GI Shotgunner should've been the one pulling the aggro allowing the lower damaging classes to safely fire at enemies (a GI shotgunner can easily down enemies before they down you if you can actually play a run and gun playstyle).

The Paladin's primary damager is his shield, he can't use that if the enemies are facing him because everyone else is sneaking behind or sniping due to a lack of fair aggro. Though OP failed to pull aggro (other guys kept going down) meaning he SHOULD have had a much higher score using Shield Bash, Snap Freeze and Shotgun.

[KalilKareem]

This game is whac-a-mole. If you are not whaccing moles your not helping. Tankings is a lie. Support is a lie.

[LuckyBullet95]

KalilKareem wrote...

This game is whac-a-mole. If you are not whaccing moles your not helping. Tankings is a lie. Support is a lie.

This is actually the most true thing ever said. There is no need to tank if there is an extra hand slaying everything.What you would be tanking is already dead.

[WaffleCrab]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Congratulations on continuing to miss the point for such a long period of time.

I will state it as simply as I can:

The fact that someone can do well with a build does not necessarily make it a good build. 

I in turn congratulate you missing another point, a build that might not be a good build for someone, does not automatically make it a bad build for everyone else.

Are we done with this merry go round?