396 réponses à ce sujet

[nicethugbert]

synapsefire wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
I post numbers and no one finds any meaning in them. Typical.

I saw the numbers but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Show me your equations.

synapsefire wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Yet, without me playing demolisher, we can't succeed. I, the lowest scoring team member, am carrying the team because without whatever it is that I'm doing right despite my **** scores, we can't succeed. This is the case regardless of what classes the rest of the team is playing or who scores over 100k, etc.

Truthfully it sounds like the demolisher is the only character you can play so your team can get the bare minimum contribution from you to succeed. No disrespect, thats just what it sounds like. The fact that you turn it around painting yourself as the carrier is a sure sign of someone in denial.

If that is the case, then what does it say about everybody else, including those getting over 100k that can't finish the match unless I play Demolisher?  Incidentally, my team and I 3-manned FBGCP from wave 4 to 10 because someone dropped out.  So, why can't they 3-man it without me?  Looks like my actions are necessary, regardless of my score.

Your definition of carry is scoring less than 50k.  But, you can't justify this number.  You can't correlate it to anything other than your opinion.  Therefore, it's a meaningless number.

[Lucius Aelius]

50k is my opinion, yes, I've said so repeatedly. I happen to think you have to be shooting at enemies at least a little in order to properly contribute, 50k is downright easy to achieve I say it as a baseline because I would be absolutely disgusted with my performance were that my score. I consider myself a solid Gold player, a.k.a. I can solo Silver with relative ease and solo Gold (only against Reapers) in a little over 30 mins with effort, anything besides camping on Platinum is problematic/extremely challenging for me to hold my own, solo Platinum forget it.

In addition to always going for objectives, always trying to get the most revives, always trying to cover my teammates if I see one on their own or getting swarmed, and of course always use consumables without hesitation when called for, I also make a point of always trying to get at least 100k on both Gold and Platinum (and I only ever play U/U when I play Gold, so that's 100k with the bonuses from that and extraction). I go for that score because any less and I don't feel like I wounded/killed my share of the enemies, as such forcing my teammates to bear the extra load. Below 100k is sub-par, but 50k is where (again, all IMO) sub-par becomes outright bad, and I stand by my position that anyone scoring below 50k has no place playing on Gold until such time as they can do better.

And as explanation, my personal benchmark of 100k emerges from countless games played with friends on U/U/G where 100k is around where all of us end up when we each pull our own weight, and for every person below 100k, someone else is usually the same amount above. So I'm setting a low bar for people when I say 50k, all I ask is that everyone playing Gold score half what a solid Gold player can score (as per my definition thereof, described above). If you can't even do that much, you don't belong playing in Gold. It really isn't all that much to ask; quite the opposite, I would say it is expected of everyone who plays on a challenging difficulty that they are up to the challenge, and 50k or below on U/U/G is pathetic, as such it is where I draw the line."

The fact is that people keep using all the little things every good player does in every game we play (i.e. " support") as an excuse not to damage enemies (which provides score), which is total nonsense. Bare minimum, you should always have (on U/U/G after a Full Extraction, plus Medal bonuses) at least 50k in addition to having been supportive, if not you didn't pull your own weight and were carried. If all you do is kill and provide no support, that too is an example of someone playing badly, despite scoring high; good players provide support and get high scores. Score below 50k, you didn't kill your share of the enemies, it's that simple, and I can only say it in so many different ways before I turn blue in the face.

[nicethugbert]

I understand it's opinion. Otherwise, someone would have been able by now to show the value of a high score in this game. Score in this game is scoring for scores sake. It's pvp on the sly.

An observation, matches that run somewhere under 20 minutes in platinum don't have players scoring over 100k. If people are scoring that high, something is wrong. The match is taking too long. Fewer credits are being made. Fewer packs are being bought with credit. Some people may feel extra tempted to spend real money for packs under such circumstances.

[Blarg]

 I don't think you were carried. You were in fact playing in a support role (which is different than playing as a support class, mind you), and probably made everyone's lives easier in that game. They may very well have failed the next match.

[SupidSeep]

nicethugbert wrote...

synapsefire wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Yet, without me playing demolisher, we can't succeed. I, the lowest scoring team member, am carrying the team because without whatever it is that I'm doing right despite my **** scores, we can't succeed. This is the case regardless of what classes the rest of the team is playing or who scores over 100k, etc.

Truthfully it sounds like the demolisher is the only character you can play so your team can get the bare minimum contribution from you to succeed. No disrespect, thats just what it sounds like. The fact that you turn it around painting yourself as the carrier is a sure sign of someone in denial.

If that is the case, then what does it say about everybody else, including those getting over 100k that can't finish the match unless I play Demolisher?  Incidentally, my team and I 3-manned FBGCP from wave 4 to 10 because someone dropped out.  So, why can't they 3-man it without me?  Looks like my actions are necessary, regardless of my score.

To truly prove your assertion that your team needs you as a Demolisher to complete, you should have your team play with someone else (instead of with you) not using a Demolisher.

If your team cannot survive with the 4th player not being a Demolisher, then maybe there's something about your claims.  However, if your team can survive with a competent 4th non-Demolisher player replacing you, then yes, it suggest that you are being carried.

Your definition of carry is scoring less than 50k.  But, you can't justify this number.  You can't correlate it to anything other than your opinion.  Therefore, it's a meaningless number.

It may be an opinion, by it falls in line with my claim that even as a crap-shooting support player on Gold, I would hover around 45-60k. And that was in the early days of ME3 MP.

[Lucius Aelius]

nicethugbert wrote...

I understand it's opinion. Otherwise, someone would have been able by now to show the value of a high score in this game. Score in this game is scoring for scores sake. It's pvp on the sly.

An observation, matches that run somewhere under 20 minutes in platinum don't have players scoring over 100k. If people are scoring that high, something is wrong. The match is taking too long. Fewer credits are being made. Fewer packs are being bought with credit. Some people may feel extra tempted to spend real money for packs under such circumstances.

Facts:

1) Shooting Enemies=Score.

2) This video game is a cooperative Third-Person Shooter.

3) Any player who is good at this game provides support to their teammates in addition to shooting at enemies. No player can call themselves competent without doing both things to some minimum degree. Beneath this minimum degree, no amount of either one can make up for a lack of the other. Too much shooting at stuff without support is equally bad as too much support without shooting, you need both to properly contribute.

4) This is a Video Game, emphasis on Game, and first and foremost the only proper reason to play is to have fun. Some people have fun farming ad nauseam, I am not one of them. Credits are nice, but I play this game to play the game, not to earn imaginary money in the most boring way possible. Also, any argument made that is based upon credits and the faster pursuit thereof is meaningless to this discussion, which is pertaining to score and is as such entirely unrelated.

5) I don't care about score at all beyond what it represents, and it is at the least a fairly accurate measure of damage done to enemies, which can be put together with other firsthand experience of a match (plus class/build/medals, etc) to roughly guage the performance of the players in said match. No it's not perfect, but wanting an accurate measure of performance (and valuing it insofar as it is such a measure) doesn't make me obsessed with score, it's just me making sense best as I can of what we've been given.


Opinion:

1) 50k on U/U/G after Extraction is the bare mininum amount of points (equivalent to damage done to enemies) in order to have done enough shooting at stuff. If you score less, you should have shot at stuff more, no exceptions. Even 50k on U/U/G is pretty bad, score consistently below that and you definitely shouldn't be playing on Gold.

[Blind2Society]

Blind2Society wrote...

I top the scoreboard a lot and often by a lot all while doing objectives and reviving. However, that doesn't always mean I carried the team. Sometimes I do but most of the time I'm probably just making the game go faster. The others probably would have completed the match just fine without me, just slower.

And honestly, I couldn't care less if I'm carrying or not. I just try to do my best every game and if the others are doing the same, I'm cool with it, regardless of their scores.

Just wanted to add, some times even when I have something like 40k more points than second, I feel like the team carried me.

[nicethugbert]

SupidSeep wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

synapsefire wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Yet, without me playing demolisher, we can't succeed. I, the lowest scoring team member, am carrying the team because without whatever it is that I'm doing right despite my **** scores, we can't succeed. This is the case regardless of what classes the rest of the team is playing or who scores over 100k, etc.

Truthfully it sounds like the demolisher is the only character you can play so your team can get the bare minimum contribution from you to succeed. No disrespect, thats just what it sounds like. The fact that you turn it around painting yourself as the carrier is a sure sign of someone in denial.

If that is the case, then what does it say about everybody else, including those getting over 100k that can't finish the match unless I play Demolisher?  Incidentally, my team and I 3-manned FBGCP from wave 4 to 10 because someone dropped out.  So, why can't they 3-man it without me?  Looks like my actions are necessary, regardless of my score.

To truly prove your assertion that your team needs you as a Demolisher to complete, you should have your team play with someone else (instead of with you) not using a Demolisher.

If your team cannot survive with the 4th player not being a Demolisher, then maybe there's something about your claims.  However, if your team can survive with a competent 4th non-Demolisher player replacing you, then yes, it suggest that you are being carried.

You are comparing having a 4th teammate as an incompetant(you implied by claim of being carried) Demolisher vs. a competant non-Demolisher.  Success with the incompetant Demolisher is already established.  Even if they succeed with someone else, the need for the 4th member is already established, regardless of score.  That is the problem you guys are having here.  You haven't established the importance of scoring.  You have no cause and effect relationship, just a bunch of vague claims.

Also, the fact we 3-personed it for waves 4 to 10 further complicates your claims.

SupidSeep wrote...

Your definition of carry is scoring less than 50k.  But, you can't justify this number.  You can't correlate it to anything other than your opinion.  Therefore, it's a meaningless number.

It may be an opinion, by it falls in line with my claim that even as a crap-shooting support player on Gold, I would hover around 45-60k. And that was in the early days of ME3 MP.

No cause and effect associated with this number.  So, it's meaningless.

[nicethugbert]

Lucius Aelius wrote...
4) This is a Video Game, emphasis on Game, and first and foremost the only proper reason to play is to have fun. Some people have fun farming ad nauseam, I am not one of them. Credits are nice, but I play this game to play the game, not to earn imaginary money in the most boring way possible. Also, any argument made that is based upon credits and the faster pursuit thereof is meaningless to this discussion, which is pertaining to score and is as such entirely unrelated.

Some people play the game to play the game, not to earn imaginary points in the most boring way possible.

Actually, this discusion is about being carried.  What it means to be carried has not been established as anything other than opinion because no one here has been able to demonstrate a cause and effect between scoring and any result whatsoever.

Lucius Aelius wrote...
5) I don't care about score at all beyond what it represents, and it is at the least a fairly accurate measure of damage done to enemies, which can be put together with other firsthand experience of a match (plus class/build/medals, etc) to roughly guage the performance of the players in said match. No it's not perfect, but wanting an accurate measure of performance (and valuing it insofar as it is such a measure) doesn't make me obsessed with score, it's just me making sense best as I can of what we've been given.

The score system in this game is anything but accurate.  We've both already been through the example where one player applies damage to the last armor/health bar on an opponent while others are continuing to shoot and the johnny come lately gets half the points for the killing shot.  That does not encourage people to kill faster.  That encourages people to kill steal.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 25 août 2012 - 04:34 .

[Kogia]

I'm confused by this 'bare minimum' benchmark score of 50k, most gold matches I've been in nobody sores over 100k, most players range between 40-80k (80k at most) and the match finished somewhere between 16-22 mins?

If nobody scores more than 100k, did something go wrong, even though all waves were completed?

Modifié par Kogia, 25 août 2012 - 06:58 .

[Sgt SuperWae]

16 pages!!! This thread has taken on a life of its own

On the subject:

Similar to how players with top scores can often overvalue their contributions to the team, someone with a low score can give themselves too much credit for their "support" roles. That's what I think is going on in the OP's case.

It's great that you helped out a bit, but a score THAT low -- to me -- indicates that you were offensively inefficient and were likely spending more time in cover, or on the weak side of the map. Assist points add up quickly, and as we all know, the waves don't end until everything is dead. I'd love to see a video that shows what you were doing offensively throughout each wave.

Not saying you're a bad player overall, but in this instance your contribution to the team seems minimal. Although this doesn't excuse that rude player's behavior, I can see why he felt the way he did.

[K1LLJOY04]

Kogia wrote...

I'm confused by this 'bare minimum' benchmark score of 50k, most gold matches I've been in nobody sores over 100k, most players range between 40-80k (80k at most) and the match finished somewhere between 16-22 mins?

If nobody scores more than 100k, did something go wrong, even though all waves were completed?

50/100k apply to U/U/G so there's a 40%(?) points bonus in a pre-picked game those numbers would go down to roughly 35/70k per match which seems to match up with your points

[Kogia]

ah yeah, that would fit, as a beginner I've only been in gold for the Geth FBW 'tactical run'.

[Shadow Storm]

"Carry" only apllies to the person who does not die and in fact is the one reviving those who are falling it has nothing to do with score. Some classes will always fair alot better then others on the score board for various reasons especially biotics and techs. Often the reason why people get such a low score is because they are the ones running around keeping the other noobs alive. Just ignore it is the simple answer the other is FYI don't worry about it in another words you did your part well so pat yourself on the back.

[LuckyBullet95]

Kogia wrote...

I'm confused by this 'bare minimum' benchmark score of 50k, most gold matches I've been in nobody sores over 100k, most players range between 40-80k (80k at most) and the match finished somewhere between 16-22 mins?

If nobody scores more than 100k, did something go wrong, even though all waves were completed?

No but someone not scoring 50k means someone is scoring  higher.

[Star fury]

So score doesn't matter and carrying is non-existent? M'kay.

[ValorOfArms777]

Star fury wrote...

So score doesn't matter and carrying is non-existent? M'kay.

around 30k+ is a lower score but they did contribute
if you are toppping their scores you might be either kill hogging or just more potent with your effective style
if your score is like the ones listed 

the 20k wasn't persay carried but he wasn't doing good and the damn 2k... he's a leech

[Kogia]

Were those 2 low scores on that image there for the whole match, or did they join towards the end? I've often come in late to matches and then scored much lower than everyone else and I've wondered if the other people even realised that I filled the spot of someone who left.

[Lucius Aelius]

nicethugbert wrote...

Lucius Aelius wrote...
4) This is a Video Game, emphasis on Game, and first and foremost the only proper reason to play is to have fun. Some people have fun farming ad nauseam, I am not one of them. Credits are nice, but I play this game to play the game, not to earn imaginary money in the most boring way possible. Also, any argument made that is based upon credits and the faster pursuit thereof is meaningless to this discussion, which is pertaining to score and is as such entirely unrelated.

Some people play the game to play the game, not to earn imaginary points in the most boring way possible.

Actually, this discusion is about being carried.  What it means to be carried has not been established as anything other than opinion because no one here has been able to demonstrate a cause and effect between scoring and any result whatsoever.

Lucius Aelius wrote...
5) I don't care about score at all beyond what it represents, and it is at the least a fairly accurate measure of damage done to enemies, which can be put together with other firsthand experience of a match (plus class/build/medals, etc) to roughly guage the performance of the players in said match. No it's not perfect, but wanting an accurate measure of performance (and valuing it insofar as it is such a measure) doesn't make me obsessed with score, it's just me making sense best as I can of what we've been given.

The score system in this game is anything but accurate.  We've both already been through the example where one player applies damage to the last armor/health bar on an opponent while others are continuing to shoot and the johnny come lately gets half the points for the killing shot.  That does not encourage people to kill faster.  That encourages people to kill steal.

How convenient that I keep answering your question and you keep ignoring what I say. Score=Shooting at enemies, shooting at enemies=Score. I'll say that again, Score=Shooting at enemies, shooting at enemies=Score. And as for disproportionate points being awarded for the kill, yes it happens, but even if you have every kill stolen and don't get a single kill for yourself, half of the points from those enemies is easily enough to get 50k (assuming you were shooting at stuff sufficiently). Maybe if you were being trolled like that then that's an exception (but I've had games like that, and my response is that I reciprocate and steal kills right back, so it always evens out with me).

In any game where people aren't trying to steal kills, having an occasional kill stolen doesn't effect the score so negatively as you would seem to say. And as it is, 10k from extraction on U/U/G, along with all the other bonuses, that's about 15k you get entirely apart from killimg enemies, meaning that 50k after extraction is really 35k worth of damage done to enemies. That is such a pitifully low score, and even getting all assists, if you scored less than 35k worth of damage to enemies prior to extraction then you weren't pulling your own weight.

This is a shooting game and there is a minimum amount of shooting at stuff you have to do in every match or you didn't contribute enough, and I daresay 35k worth of shooting is outright pathetic (even with stiff competition for every kill). Even with someone trolling me for a whole game (which has happened a couple of times) I still manage to score at least 75k, so if you can't handle it then fine, I can handle people trolling/can give as good as I get, as such I belong on Gold. If you're not up to the task, I guess that's okay, it is a video game after all, no shame in not being good at it.

And this discussion is about score, insofar as it pertains to being carried, so I spoke correctly, and credits have absolutely nothing to do with it.

THIS IS A SHOOTING GAME. YOU HAVE TO SHOOT THINGS IN ORDER TO CONTRIBUTE PROPERLY, HENCE THE REASON WHY SCORE IS A MEASURE OF DAMAGE DONE TO ENEMIES. IF YOU DON'T SHOOT AT STUFF AS WELL AS PROVIDING SUPPORT, YOU WERE PLAYING BADLY. 35K ON GOLD PRIOR TO EXTRACTION IS THE BARE MINIMUM OF SHOOTING FOR YOU TO HAVE CONTRIBUTED, NOT EVEN HAVING EVERY KILL STOLEN IS AN EXCUSE FOR SCORING THAT LOW.

END OF LINE.

[Shadow Storm]

And the fact that alot of players obviously have no life is obviously not measured in the scale aswell. -.- There is always going to be those 24-7 players trotting around like roosters thinking they are gaming gods and they probably would be if they play as much as some players do. (Get some air kids) There would be no win at all if the reviving player was not present high score or not. And FYI the table that was presented is a loud of carp the last 2 players obviously were introduced at the end other wise they would have received some sort of reward even a assist medal for crying out loud. They would have to be sitting there the entire match not to get one. Even in my worst matches everyone has always got some kind of medal. -.-

[nicethugbert]

Lucius Aelius wrote...
How convenient that I keep answering your question and you keep ignoring what I say. Score=Shooting at enemies, shooting at enemies=Score. I'll say that again, Score=Shooting at enemies, shooting at enemies=Score. And as for disproportionate points being awarded for the kill, yes it happens, but even if you have every kill stolen and don't get a single kill for yourself, half of the points from those enemies is easily enough to get 50k (assuming you were shooting at stuff sufficiently). Maybe if you were being trolled like that then that's an exception (but I've had games like that, and my response is that I reciprocate and steal kills right back, so it always evens out with me).

In any game where people aren't trying to steal kills, having an occasional kill stolen doesn't effect the score so negatively as you would seem to say. And as it is, 10k from extraction on U/U/G, along with all the other bonuses, that's about 15k you get entirely apart from killimg enemies, meaning that 50k after extraction is really 35k worth of damage done to enemies. That is such a pitifully low score, and even getting all assists, if you scored less than 35k worth of damage to enemies prior to extraction then you weren't pulling your own weight.

This is a shooting game and there is a minimum amount of shooting at stuff you have to do in every match or you didn't contribute enough, and I daresay 35k worth of shooting is outright pathetic (even with stiff competition for every kill). Even with someone trolling me for a whole game (which has happened a couple of times) I still manage to score at least 75k, so if you can't handle it then fine, I can handle people trolling/can give as good as I get, as such I belong on Gold. If you're not up to the task, I guess that's okay, it is a video game after all, no shame in not being good at it.

And this discussion is about score, insofar as it pertains to being carried, so I spoke correctly, and credits have absolutely nothing to do with it.

THIS IS A SHOOTING GAME. YOU HAVE TO SHOOT THINGS IN ORDER TO CONTRIBUTE PROPERLY, HENCE THE REASON WHY SCORE IS A MEASURE OF DAMAGE DONE TO ENEMIES. IF YOU DON'T SHOOT AT STUFF AS WELL AS PROVIDING SUPPORT, YOU WERE PLAYING BADLY. 35K ON GOLD PRIOR TO EXTRACTION IS THE BARE MINIMUM OF SHOOTING FOR YOU TO HAVE CONTRIBUTED, NOT EVEN HAVING EVERY KILL STOLEN IS AN EXCUSE FOR SCORING THAT LOW.

END OF LINE.

Carry means to transport something over a distance.  Presumably, all the work or burden of transporting being done by the transport.  Although, that is not always strictly the case, for instance, a vehicle that must be piloted.

There is no distance in this game.  So carry has to mean something else.  The only remaining numerical options are time, credits, XP, and score.

You clearly cannot score for someone so you cannot carry them for score.  You don't score against the enemy.  You score against your team members, unlike a typical sport or game where teams score against each other.  There is no carry when people are playing for the sake of score in ME3 MP.    Therefore, you can only carry team members for time, credits, or XP. 

Credits and XP are a matter of time.  Time is the common denominator for credits and XP.  So, regardless of whether you are playing for credits or XP or both, time is the marker of progress.

Score is the only metric in this game that measures individual actions, and it's a very biased one at that.  The exact relation between score and time is yet to be determined.  But, assuming there is one that makes sense, if you wanted to replace team mates based on scores, the reasonable method would be to replace the ones that score below the median score, not some made up number like 50k.  Happy hunting.

[rka001]

I have to agree with L. Aelius.

The key is, that classical support classes (as in buff/debuff and heal) are de facto nonexisting, because the present support effects are pretty marginal.
That is why contribution in this game means basically that you help killing stuff. Killing stuff however is about 99% what this game is about.
Considering that killing hits are disproportionally rewarded, i would not look only at the mere score but also at the medal list. I am totally OK with 25 kills/50 assists even if they add up to just 50k. At least ppl tried to contributed-

Also, i would consider my own contribution as embarassing when scoring below 70k in a platinum match.