285 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Sounds like you should should replay the ME series and Bioware has always do the tragic hero in their games.

Whilst as I said it might be possible to roleplay Shepard to have some degree of tragic hero about him the standard portrayal, whether paragon or renegade or most things in between is nowhere near that. That's so blindingly obvious I'm amazed that it needs explaining to you. There's very little tragic about Shepard at all in ME1, apart from possibly his background (just because he loses someone on Virmire doesn't change that). The same is true of 2 unless you really screw it up badly at the end. And most of 3.

What BioWare may or may not have done in other games is entirely irrelevent.

Shepard's backround isn't very relevant to the plot, though.

But all defines the character. To be honest I'm not all that convinced that there's much to my argument because to have a tragic Shepard requires quite a lot of headcanoning around and picking choices very, very carefully to make it possible to interpret him as such. It's clearly nowhere near how Shepard was ever written to be.

[Blueprotoss]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

Personally I would have been fine if shepard died alongside anderson and the crucible blew the reapers to hell. As long as that crap with the catalyst never happened I would have been ok with the ending.

Making a good ending to ME3 would have been so easy. Even with the current plot. But no, Bioware needed art.

How is that when people always have differing opinions especially on endings, which this happened recently with the Dark Knight Rises.  Its easy to assume whats a good ending for everyone while there will always be a group of people that will disagree.

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

forced Sacrifice isn't RPG

Are you a RPG fan because there is a lot forced sacrifices done in RPGs?

your obviously not a RPG fan since you don't force sacrifice the main character in every ending

How is that when a lot of RPGs have tragic heroes whether they die on screen or off screen.

off screen doesn't even matter and dying in one ending isn't the same as dying in every ending, try again

[Blueprotoss]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Oh boy, it's blueprotoss; my favourite spewer of nonsense on the BSN. How ya doin', blue?

Good while if you want to see some nonsense then you can use a mirror if you want.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Staying narratively coherent isn't hard.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Blueprotoss wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Blueprotoss thinks Shepard is a tragic hero. Shepard is NOT a tragic hero. Shepard may at one time early in ME1 (on Eden Prime) had been a tragic hero, but once past Virmire passed "go" on the way to becoming a larger than life action hero.

So, I looked at where ME went wrong, and I fixed it. I rewrote the story! Now you'll be laughing in the end! No more tears!

http://social.biowar...1802/2#13760622  and http://social.biowar...1802/2#13760811

Yes it's over the top. Yes it's shallow, but it would be fun.

Sounds like you should should replay the ME series and Bioware has always do the tragic hero in their games.

Really. They haven't always. It is a fairly recent thing.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How? Someone explain how? 

Maybe I'm just not Paragony enough. Maybe the Commander Shepard I play belongs in "Bad Ass Weekly". It's not just the character. It's the setting. Even when I play paragony it comes out more paragade. When I play renegade it comes out renegon. So my paragon will throw a merc out a window, beat Elias Kelham to giving up the goods.

Shepard is taking out the trash. 

So Shepard doesn't save billions at the end of every ME game, which this must be something new.

Just in ME1 and ME3

I have played ME1 and ME2 eleven times each. ME3? I played Shepard as the bad ass action hero all the way through the confrontation with The Illusive Man (renegade final conversation and shot his ass). That amounts to 99.8% of the entire story (I used my calculator for the hours). This amounts to all but the 20 minutes with Starbrat.

* I told Starbrat about Control "I will give up nothing."
* I told Starbrat about Synthesis "I will not force that on the galaxy."
* I told Starbrat "Let's get this over with."  
* I got the breath -- implication of survival requiring head canon which is author laziness IMO.

Later I found out that refuse was the BW big middle finger anyway.

There is another thing, and this is kind of critical if you ask me. Mass Effect is not a tragedy. Shepard is not the hero in a tragedy. A tragic hero is one who through their own faults meets their downfall. Examples of such are Macbeth, Oedipus, Brutus, King Lear, William Wallace. Shepard is none of those.

How in hell is Shepard a tragic hero? I suggest you go back to school and take some classes in literature. I also suggest you develop a sense of humor. You seem to fall short in that category.

The story went all wrong back in ME2 when BW used their vacusuck to remove the Council's brains during the two years after ME1.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 21 août 2012 - 08:06 .

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

off screen doesn't even matter and dying in one ending isn't the same as dying in every ending, try again

How is that when you die whether its off screen or on screen.  Yet these happens to be semantics coming from you especially when we look at Bioware RPGs.  Btw all of the survival horror games used to do this while its not done as much today.

[Blueprotoss]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Really. They haven't always. It is a fairly recent thing.

So there were no tragic heros in Baldur's Gate, KotOR, Neverwinter, Jade Empire, ME, or DA then.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Just in ME1 and ME3

The Suicide Mission and Arrival says otherwise in ME2.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote... 

I have played ME1 and ME2 eleven times each. ME3? I played Shepard as the bad ass action hero all the way through the confrontation with The Illusive Man (renegade final conversation and shot his ass). That amounts to 99.8% of the entire story (I used my calculator for the hours). This amounts to all but the 20 minutes with Starbrat.

* I told Starbrat about Control "I will give up nothing."
* I told Starbrat about Synthesis "I will not force that on the galaxy."
* I told Starbrat "Let's get this over with."  
* I got the breath -- implication of survival requiring head canon which is author laziness IMO.

It seems you don't like to enjoy what the Developer does with their own story.  It also seems like you flip the table when you disagree with them.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote... 

Later I found out that refuse was the BW big middle finger anyway.

Yet you already gave Bioware the middle finger and sounds like you can't take a joke.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote... 

There is another thing, and this is kind of critical if you ask me. Mass Effect is not a tragedy. Shepard is not the hero in a tragedy. A tragic hero is one who through their own faults meets their downfall. Examples of such are Macbeth, Oedipus, Brutus, King Lear, William Wallace. Shepard is none of those.

How in hell is Shepard a tragic hero? I suggest you go back to school and take some classes in literature. I also suggest you develop a sense of humor. You seem to fall short in that category.

If Shepard isn't a tragic hero neither is Macbeth, Brutus, and Wallace because all 4 focused on the greater good and most died at the end of their journies.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote... 

The story went all wrong back in ME2 when BW used their vacusuck to remove the Council's brains during the two years after ME1.

How is that when people look back and change thier stories in real life because they were in the heat of the moment.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 21 août 2012 - 08:19 .

[Blueprotoss]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Staying narratively coherent isn't hard.

Yet this is opinion just like writing is subjective by itself.

[BatmanPWNS]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Oh boy, it's blueprotoss; my favourite spewer of nonsense on the BSN. How ya doin', blue?

Good while if you want to see some nonsense then you can use a mirror if you want.

Words cannot describe how I felt after this. Oh well, this picture will do the job.

[Iakus]

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

And Shepard isn't a tragic hero unless the player RPs Shepard as a tragic hero.

How isn't Shepard a tragic hero especially when he/she is facing the unstoppable Reaper threat, seen thousands of the dead, and even died at the beginning of ME2.

iakus wrote... 

But still dies a tragic hero's death, regardless of chocie.

This by default wold make Shepard into a trgaic hero by saving billions in the galaxy like previously in ME1 and ME2.

That's not what a tragic hero is.  It's not a protagonist who's simply beset by tragedy.  If that were the case every burnt-out cop in every '80s action flick would be a tragic hero.

That's not it at all.

A tragic hero is one undone by their own flaws.   Whatever tragedies the hero suffers from are brought upon by himself.  Not necessarilly because they are bad or evil, but because they suffer some sort of personal failing they cannot overcome.  Fear.  Impatience.  Envy.   Pride.  Or just trusting the wrong person.   TIM is arguably a tragic hero.  He certainly fits the bill better.   He thought he could use the Reapers own weapons against them and failed.  

Shepard, however, only has the failings we put in him or her.  IF we make Shepard out to be a "classical hero" and he/she ends up suffering a tragic hero's fate, that's the wrong kind of "tragic"

Modifié par iakus, 21 août 2012 - 08:39 .

[KENNY4753]

 

[N7Gold]

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

[Iakus]

N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

Operative word being "might"  It should never have been inevitable.

[Blueprotoss]

iakus wrote...

That's not what a tragic hero is.  It's not a protagonist who's simply beset by tragedy.  If that were the case every burnt-out cop in every '80s action flick would be a tragic hero.

That's not it at all.

A tragic hero is one undone by their own flaws.   Whatever tragedies the hero suffers from are brought upon by himself.  Not necessarilly because they are bad or evil, but because they suffer some sort of personal failing they cannot overcome.  Fear.  Impatience.  Envy.   Pride.  Or just trusting the wrong person.   TIM is arguably a tragic hero.  He certainly fits the bill better.   He thought he could use the Reapers own weapons against them and failed.  

Shepard, however, only has the failings we put in him or her.  IF we make Shepard out to be a "classical hero" and he/she ends up suffering a tragic hero's fate, that's the wrong kind of "tragic"

Shepard is human while thats shown throughout the series then the self-sacrafice appears.  Ridley Scott has a portfolio of tragic heroes like Maximus in Gladiator, Robin Hood in Robin Hood, Ripley in Alien, Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus, and Creasy from Man on Fire.

iakus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

Operative word being "might"  It should never have been inevitable.

Why wouldn't it happen since the Reapers aren't a conventional enemy, Bioware does this a lot, and Shepard is the hero of the cycle since ME1. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 21 août 2012 - 08:51 .

[N7Gold]

iakus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

Operative word being "might"  It should never have been inevitable.

But it's not inevitable, if you go for the destroy ending with high EMS.

[wright1978]

N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

I had no problem with it being one option, i'm just annoyed as anything that they put no effort into the one variation where Shep lives.

[AresKeith]

N7Gold wrote...

iakus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

Operative word being "might"  It should never have been inevitable.

But it's not inevitable, if you go for the destroy ending with high EMS.

oh wow one dev says Shepard lives, while another says Shepard dies.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ Blueprotoss: take a class in literature. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Iakus]

[quote]Blueprotoss wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

That's not what a tragic hero is.  It's not a protagonist who's simply beset by tragedy.  If that were the case every burnt-out cop in every '80s action flick would be a tragic hero.

That's not it at all.

A tragic hero is one undone by their own flaws.   Whatever tragedies the hero suffers from are brought upon by himself.  Not necessarilly because they are bad or evil, but because they suffer some sort of personal failing they cannot overcome.  Fear.  Impatience.  Envy.   Pride.  Or just trusting the wrong person.   TIM is arguably a tragic hero.  He certainly fits the bill better.   He thought he could use the Reapers own weapons against them and failed.  

Shepard, however, only has the failings we put in him or her.  IF we make Shepard out to be a "classical hero" and he/she ends up suffering a tragic hero's fate, that's the wrong kind of "tragic"[/quote]Shepard is human while thats shown throughout the series then the self-sacrafice appears.  Ridley Scott has a portfolio of tragic heroes like Maximus in Gladiator, Robin Hood in Robin Hood, Ripley in Alien, Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus, and Creasy from Man on Fire.[/quote]

And none of those are "tragic heroes"  Maybe heroes in dark or tragic tales.  But that's not the same thing.  This is a concept thousands of years old.

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.[/quote]

Operative word being "might"  It should never have been inevitable.

[/quote]Why wouldn't it happen since the Reapers aren't a conventional enemy, Bioware does this a lot, and Shepard is the hero of the cycle since ME1. 

[/quote]

Because this is a game that touted player agency.  Players help shape the course of their Shepard's story.  If you paint the character into a corner by DM Fiat rather than as a conssequence of the player's actions, that's called "railroading"  Most rpg players don't like that.

[Iakus]

N7Gold wrote...

iakus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I saw this coming a mile away before ME3's release. I'm not surprised that Shepard might have to sacrifice his life to save the galaxy.

Operative word being "might"  It should never have been inevitable.

But it's not inevitable, if you go for the destroy ending with high EMS.

Easter egg.  Nothing says Shepard gets off the Citadel alive.  Only that Shepard wasn't killed outright in the explosion.

[Conniving_Eagle]

KENNY4753 wrote...

 

11/10

[Iakus]

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_6yQwHJ4tU

1:10-2:50  



1:15-3:15

These are how you end things if you send in a properly prepared Shepard.

Bioware, you did this twice before.  Why not again?