285 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
Not just that, but the breath-scene easter egg could have been "expanded" to provide more "clarity and closure" to a surviving Shepard.  It was already there.  It wouldn't be much, but it would have been something.  Enough, perhaps to salvage the game for some.

But alas, while Bioware bent over backwards to show us a galaxy of shiny happy people with Synthesis, and no  the relays didn't really explode, we still have to headcanon any ending that didjn't invovle Shepard burnig to a crisp.

Well, the "bending over backwards" there consists of an EDI voiceover, a short scene with a husk and a couple of slightly altered slides. Not a huge amount of work.

How much work would an expanded breath-scene have needed? I'm not in a great position to evaluate that since all my Sheps so far are dead, so it's purely hypothetical for me.

[AlanC9]

leapingmonkeys wrote...

Because they thought their audience was a bunch of whiny teenagers who live in perpetual angst that the world is not "perfect".

Killing the hero is a good way to market to whiny teenagers?

Because they forgot that this was an RPG which is all about wish fulfilment and that the player is supposed to feel empowered by an RPG instead of taken on a ride to someone else's idea of what the game should be.

RPGs are about wish-fulfillment? Every day I'm given a new reason to dislike the genre.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Not just that, but the breath-scene easter egg could have been "expanded" to provide more "clarity and closure" to a surviving Shepard.  It was already there.  It wouldn't be much, but it would have been something.  Enough, perhaps to salvage the game for some.

But alas, while Bioware bent over backwards to show us a galaxy of shiny happy people with Synthesis, and no  the relays didn't really explode, we still have to headcanon any ending that didjn't invovle Shepard burnig to a crisp.

Well, the "bending over backwards" there consists of an EDI voiceover, a short scene with a husk and a couple of slightly altered slides. Not a huge amount of work.

How much work would an expanded breath-scene have needed? I'm not in a great position to evaluate that since all my Sheps so far are dead, so it's purely hypothetical for me.

Several possibilities:

1) Replace/expand breath scene to show Shepard getting up and limping away.  Or possibly standing up and radioing for assistance

2) Replace/expand breath scene to show Alliance rescue team finding Shepard and reporting him/her "alive"

3) Replace breath scene with that of Shepard resting in a hospital.  Bonus points for providing an appearance from Hackett, Shepard's LI, and/or members of the Normandy crew

4) Expand memorial scene to include transmission from Hackett or other Alliance official, during LI's hestitation.  Message would be that Shepard has been found alive

5 Ending slide of LI (if Shepard has one) arm-in-arm with silouetted figure clearly meant to be Shepard.  

Thi sis just stuff that could only take a few seconds, most being direct extensions of what's already in the game.  

[DrwEddy]

With Shephard dead, I lost all interest in replaying the trilogy. I wanted Shephard to live and spend his life doing something other then dying.

Modifié par DrwEddy, 21 août 2012 - 11:57 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I've given up on saving ME3. It's beyond saving. I've moved on just like Jessica suggested. It's time to work on continuity and saving the franchise.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

Several possibilities:

1) Replace/expand breath scene to show Shepard getting up and limping away.  Or possibly standing up and radioing for assistance

2) Replace/expand breath scene to show Alliance rescue team finding Shepard and reporting him/her "alive"

3) Replace breath scene with that of Shepard resting in a hospital.  Bonus points for providing an appearance from Hackett, Shepard's LI, and/or members of the Normandy crew

4) Expand memorial scene to include transmission from Hackett or other Alliance official, during LI's hestitation.  Message would be that Shepard has been found alive

5 Ending slide of LI (if Shepard has one) arm-in-arm with silouetted figure clearly meant to be Shepard.  

Thi sis just stuff that could only take a few seconds, most being direct extensions of what's already in the game.  

And all things that you have absolutely no need to see unless you WANT to miserable about the endings, in which case NOTHING they give you will satisfy you.

You basically want Bioware to custom write you an ending, and I'm glad they refuse to, because frankly you deserve the nothing you think you got.

Bioware doesn't, and shouldn't, have to hold your ****ing hand through this.  That you refuse to add 1 and 1 together to make 2 is YOUR problem, not Bioware's.

Modifié par chemiclord, 22 août 2012 - 12:47 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

Several possibilities:

1) Replace/expand breath scene to show Shepard getting up and limping away.  Or possibly standing up and radioing for assistance

2) Replace/expand breath scene to show Alliance rescue team finding Shepard and reporting him/her "alive"

3) Replace breath scene with that of Shepard resting in a hospital.  Bonus points for providing an appearance from Hackett, Shepard's LI, and/or members of the Normandy crew

4) Expand memorial scene to include transmission from Hackett or other Alliance official, during LI's hestitation.  Message would be that Shepard has been found alive

5 Ending slide of LI (if Shepard has one) arm-in-arm with silouetted figure clearly meant to be Shepard.  

Thi sis just stuff that could only take a few seconds, most being direct extensions of what's already in the game.  

And all things that you have absolutely no need to see unless you WANT to miserable about the endings, in which case NOTHING they give you will satisfy you.

You basically want Bioware to custom write you an ending, and I'm glad they refuse to, because frankly you deserve the nothing you think you got.

Bioware doesn't, and shouldn't, have to hold your ****ing hand through this.  That you refuse to add 1 and 1 together to make 2 is YOUR problem, not Bioware's.

Good, good.  Let the rage flow though you,  my apprentice 

On a more serious note:  Chemiclord, we've been through this before.  You're acting exactly like you keep accusing me and others of being.  Calm.  Down.  

And no, I don't want Bioware to "custom write" me an ending, any further than my chocies should reflect a customized ending, at least.

But if Shepard lives.  I want a scene that definitely shows Shepard lives.  Not some deliberately ambiguous breath scene that could be (and has been) interpreted any number of ways.  Dragon Age: Origins showed seperate endings if the Warden was dead or alive. 

Modifié par iakus, 22 août 2012 - 12:56 .

[hoodaticus]

DrwEddy wrote...

With Shephard dead, I lost all interest in replaying the trilogy. I wanted Shephard to live and spend his life doing something other then dying.

Then do the fetch quests, play multiplayer, and pick destroy.  Voila.  No dying.

In fact, not one organic life form is harmed in high-EMS destroy.

[hoodaticus]

iakus wrote...
But if Shepard lives.  I want a scene that definitely shows Shepard lives.  Not some deliberately ambiguous breath scene that could be (and has been) interpreted any number of ways.  Dragon Age: Origins showed seperate endings if the Warden was dead or alive. 

Generally, one assumes a person to be alive until evidence of their death is presented.  The last instant we see of Shepard in high-EMS Destroy... is breathing.

We never saw Shepard die, but we did see Shepard live.

[Ticonderoga117]

Because he's no longer YOUR character in ME3. He's the plot's character. The plot demands that he dies. The end.

[Iakus]

hoodaticus wrote...
Generally, one assumes a person to be alive until evidence of their death is presented.  The last instant we see of Shepard in high-EMS Destroy... is breathing.

We never saw Shepard die, but we did see Shepard live.

that's splitting the hair too fine.  Lilke I said, that breath can be and has been interpreted as Shepard's last moments as well.

But SHepard standing up, or being rescued, or receiving medical treatment.  That's far more definitive proof.  Something that others accuse of "hand-holding"  But it leaves little to no room for doubt.  

And given the uncertain nature of all three endings, some certainty about Shepard's state is kinda needed.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

that's splitting the hair too fine.  Lilke I said, that breath can be and has been interpreted as Shepard's last moments as well.

Only if you want to be miserable would anyone interpret the breath scene as anything other than living.

That was Hepler's entire troll job in a nutshell.  If you are that hellbent on being depressed and miserable about that scene, then fine.  He bled out.  Bioware cordially invites you to continue being miserable, because they're done trying to convince you otherwise.

There is NO LOGICAL REASON to include that breath if the intent was "And then Shepard died.  The End."  Gamers simply interpret it that way in some petty, bitter hope that if they keep whining long enough, Bioware will eventually give them what they want.

I sincerely hope Bioware holds the line.  Because frankly, you don't deserve any more.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

There is NO LOGICAL REASON to include that breath if the intent was "And then Shepard died.  The End."  Gamers simply interpret it that way in some petty, bitter hope that if they keep whining long enough, Bioware will eventually give them what they want.

Who ever said this had to do with logic?  THi sis emotion.  The scene is meant to elicit an emotional response.  Fine.  It failed.  The emotions it brings forth are of hopelessness and futility.  Look at th eendings to ME1 and ME2 and how it makes you feel.  COmpare that to the faceless toso in ME3.  

What good are intentions if th eoutcome completely blows up in your face?  "But I tried!"

I sincerely hope Bioware holds the line.  Because frankly, you don't deserve any more.

I love you too.

[The Twilight God]

chemiclord wrote...

And all things that I have absolutely no need to see

Fixed.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

Who ever said this had to do with logic?  THi sis emotion.  The scene is meant to elicit an emotional response.  Fine.  It failed.  The emotions it brings forth are of hopelessness and futility.  Look at th eendings to ME1 and ME2 and how it makes you feel.  COmpare that to the faceless toso in ME3.  

What good are intentions if th eoutcome completely blows up in your face?  "But I tried!"

Again, it only brings forth such emotions if you WANT them to.  If you WANT to be miserable and dissatisfied, then yes, that is what you will feel.  When someone gives you the equation "1+1=?" and you say, "Zero"... sorry, that's YOUR problem, not THEIRS.

I am honestly dubious you will ever be satisfied with a Shepard Lives ending that doesn't give you everything you want.  I believe that if you were to get that scene of Shepard getting up and walking away, you'd whine that it doesn't show the reunion.

Fortunately, we'll never get to test that theory.

Modifié par chemiclord, 22 août 2012 - 02:33 .

[ediskrad327]

my Shepard Lived

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

Who ever said this had to do with logic?  THi sis emotion.  The scene is meant to elicit an emotional response.  Fine.  It failed.  The emotions it brings forth are of hopelessness and futility.  Look at th eendings to ME1 and ME2 and how it makes you feel.  COmpare that to the faceless toso in ME3.  

What good are intentions if th eoutcome completely blows up in your face?  "But I tried!"

Again, it only brings forth such emotions if you WANT them to.  If you WANT to be miserable and dissatisfied, then yes, that is what you will feel.  When someone gives you the equation "1+1=?" and you say, "Zero"... sorry, that's YOUR problem, not THEIRS.

I am honestly dubious you will ever be satisfied with a Shepard Lives ending that doesn't give you everything you want.  I believe that if you were to get that scene of Shepard getting up and walking away, you'd whine that it doesn't show the reunion.

Fortunately, we'll never get to test that theory.

So do you allow yourself to feel such anger at my posts?  Do you want  to feel rage and be dissatisfied that I dare complain about the endings?  Do you want to be miserable reading threads such as this, that you feel the need to belittle me over and over?

Or are you, like me, simply dissatisfied and feel the need to express yourself?


At any rate, this isn't a case of 1+1  This is a case of, instead of giving a proper ending, just showing a bunch of lights and colors and saying "what did you see?"

Modifié par iakus, 22 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
But if Shepard lives.  I want a scene that definitely shows Shepard lives.  Not some deliberately ambiguous breath scene that could be (and has been) interpreted any number of ways.  Dragon Age: Origins showed seperate endings if the Warden was dead or alive. 

I gotta go with chemiclord on the substance here. Since the scene's open to interpretation, why not interpret it a way you like instead of a way you don't like?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
But if Shepard lives.  I want a scene that definitely shows Shepard lives.  Not some deliberately ambiguous breath scene that could be (and has been) interpreted any number of ways.  Dragon Age: Origins showed seperate endings if the Warden was dead or alive. 

I gotta go with chemiclord on the substance here. Since the scene's open to interpretation, why not interpret it a way you like instead of a way you don't like?

Why was EC needed at all?

Clarity.  Closure.  

Seeing something so ambiguous after everything Shepard went through is throughly unsatisfying.  Especially since this is the closest we get to an ending where Shepard lives. If you do everything "right" this is the best it gets.

Could I just tell myself over and over "SHepard's alive.  Shepard's alive?  Maybe.  But what I'm seeing is burned and broken body, lying in a pile of rubble, not moving.  I'm hearing only a single breath.  I sacrificed EDI for this?  I genocided the geth, scoured the galaxy for every resource I could find, for this?

This ending doesn't give a sense of hope.  Like ME1.  Nor a sense of triumph, like ME2.  The closest emotion I can think of that it provides is...melancholy.

 I shouldn't have to convince myself that this "best" ending is somehting I should be feeliong good about.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

So do you allow yourself to feel such anger at my posts?  Do you want  to feel rage and be dissatisfied that I dare complain about the endings?  Do you want to be miserable reading threads such as this, that you feel the need to belittle me over and over?

Or are you, like me, simply dissatisfied and feel the need to express yourself?


At any rate, this isn't a case of 1+1  This is a case of, instead of giving a proper ending, just showing a bunch of lights and colors and saying "what did you see?"

For what it's worth, I have no rage for you specificially.  Not even particularly all that angry.  Disappointed, for sure.

It DOES irk me the number of people who are willing to overlook or handwave what REALLY is wrong with ME3's endings (hell, the series as a whole), as long as they get "emotional satisfaction."  It irritates me that all this game would need is for the final scene to have Shepard laying back on a beach, holding his/her LIs hand as the credits roll for the majority of players to be squeeing like a My Little Pony convention and declaring it the best ending ever.

So, yeah... if people being emotionally dissatisfied is what it takes for people to look back and say, "Ya know... Mass Effect's story never really was as good as we thought, huh?" then I hope Bioware keeps ****ting on your "emotional satisfaction."

Emotions need to take a back seat to logical analysis anyway.

Modifié par chemiclord, 22 août 2012 - 03:13 .

[AlanC9]

Hmmm.... again, hypothetical, but I've watched it on YouTube, and what I take away from seeing it is that not only is Shep alive, but it's obvious that he's alive, and there's going to be a reunion and all that. If I saw those scenes in a TV show I'd know that guy would be back next season.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

For what it's worth, I have no rage for you specificially.  Not even particularly all that angry.  Disappointed, for sure.

It DOES irk me the number of people who are willing to overlook or handwave what REALLY is wrong with ME3's endings (hell, the series as a whole), as long as they get "emotional satisfaction."  It irritates me that all this game would need is for the final scene to have Shepard laying back on a beach, holding his/her LIs hand as the credits roll for the majority of players to be squeeing like a My Little Pony convention and declaring it the best ending ever.

So, yeah... if people being emotionally dissatisfied is what it takes for people to look back and say, "Ya know... Mass Effect's story never really was as good as we thought, huh?" then I hope Bioware keeps ****ting on your "emotional satisfaction."

Emotions need to take a back seat to logical analysis anyway.

Do you really think I don't have my own laundry list of problems with the game and the ending in particular?  Believe me, I do.  From Ash's uniform to the existence of the Catalyst.

But I made peace with the fact that many of them will never be addressed months ago.  But I did make a list of things I absolutely needed for the game to be playable.  Shepard definitively alive was at the top.  No, I wouldn't be "squeeing" but I'd be able to play the game, and at least enjoy it.   A satisfactory end to an epic adventure, if not a great rpg.  

The story will never be great.  Logic checked out back in ME2 with the Lazarus Project.  A living Shepard isn't the key to happiness.  It's the line in the sand.  With it I can check my brain at the door and at least have fun with it.  If I can't have a good story, I should at least have a fun story, so my money's not a total waste.

[chemiclord]

If the main character dying at the end of his story is where you can no longer enjoy a story... I'm not sure how you enjoy about 70% of the stories that have ever been written.

And logical narrative checked out in ME1, for the record, when a largely anonymous quarian girl (who the Council would have absolutely ZERO reason to believe) with an AUDIO recording was able to indisputably prove this Spectre who leaves piles of collateral damage in form of bodies as his calling card MIGHT just be, oh I dunno, not right in the head.

Modifié par chemiclord, 22 août 2012 - 03:30 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

If the main character dying at the end of his story is where you can no longer enjoy a story... I'm not sure how you enjoy about 70% of the stories that have ever been written.

The protagonnist is not under my control in most of those stories.  

I played Shepard a certain way across Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3.  And for the last ten minutes, I was told it was all for nothing.

Modifié par iakus, 22 août 2012 - 03:30 .

[chemiclord]

Shepard was NEVER under your control. That's part of the problem.

You were effectively reading from a script. That illusion should have been shattered very quickly from the moment you were required to go a specific path in the story.  From the start to the finish, you were ALWAYS at the mercy of the story Bioware wanted to tell.

Modifié par chemiclord, 22 août 2012 - 03:35 .