222 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Stay if wish, moan, yell or howl at the moon for as long as desire. But their stance has been made clear as can be.

I can find solace in being a thorn in someone's side if need be.

That's fine. Free will and such. However like I said that quote is what their stance is. Noone said you had to be happy with their stance but it is what it is of which in this instance I happen to agree with it both in terms of DLC for those who like the products and the common sense regarding what is said within plus no more ending DLC.

[Deltoran]

Yes it is salvageable, will the salvage it (for those of us who believes it needs improvement)? Probably not.

[AresKeith]

Ariella wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Stay if wish, moan, yell or howl at the moon for as long as desire. But their stance has been made clear as can be.

I can find solace in being a thorn in someone's side if need be.

Why waste your time and energy when it can go to something more productive than being a thorn?

You says you didn't like the ending. Okay, fair enough, but why. I've seen two types of people one that front. Those who have legitimate reasons for disliking the ending, and those who to paraphrase David Gaider "came up with their own game" and then expected ME 3 to conform to that construct rather than what was actually there. It's a fine line, I'll grant, but there is a line.

So my first question is: was it just the ending(s) that bothered you or was it the entire story? I ask because it gives a basis to start the conversation.

I don't like the way most of the game was handle

[Kileyan]

Grogimus wrote...

Quintega wrote...
Get off of yours its not entitlement when a fan base is betrayed for money, It wasn't okay with Ultima 9, it wasn't okay with anytime it happens. Also all of the forums I spoke about where constructive critisism. The issue is like myself a lot of the members of this forum are writers and when you pull a finally to a story like you did with this, its unaccepable. Also Even my own stories I'll admit aren't art. There is no such thing as art in gaming. 

I'm going to assume that English isn't your first language. 

Perhaps the fanbase was betrayed for money.  This isn't anything new in American society.   It happens frequently with many different products, games being among them. 

These forums definately had some constructive criticism.  And a whole lot of vitriole, nonsense, and self entitlement. 

You say you're a writer(again, guessing non-English).  Stories are art.  The best stories have different interpretations according to the individual reader.  This game is no different.  It is art.  

 

No, art would be not releasing your baby, your art until it was done.

This game release was a compromise on time, money and meeting a deadly serious deadline of a financial quarter. That is not art, that is business, bean counters and looking out for your job. I don't blame them, you have to keep your job, pay for your house and kids, but don't call it art........it is business.

It stopped being art when someone said, that ending you planned, you don't have time for it, do something else, hence the 11th hour ending that COINCIDENTALLY didn't take 16 different endings(as promised) or cinematics all of the war assetts, it just took 3 colors, same graphics and a quick jarring out of place wrapup of the game in 7 minutes.

The art of compromise.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Ariella wrote...
Why waste your time and energy when it can go to something more productive than being a thorn?

You says you didn't like the ending. Okay, fair enough, but why. I've seen two types of people one that front. Those who have legitimate reasons for disliking the ending, and those who to paraphrase David Gaider "came up with their own game" and then expected ME 3 to conform to that construct rather than what was actually there. It's a fine line, I'll grant, but there is a line.

So my first question is: was it just the ending(s) that bothered you or was it the entire story? I ask because it gives a basis to start the conversation.

I'd be  wasting just as much time and energy here if I liked the ending, I'd just make fewer polarizing jokes. People here ask questions, I provide answers, opinons, humor and occasional snide comments and engage in discussion in my free time same as you.

Short answer: I feel it falls short of established plots, themes, narrative cohesion, and it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

[Aaleel]

Depends, the game is what it is. The crucible plans just showing up out of nowhere and then having it be the driving plot device is always going to be there, and so is the catalyst.

If someone thinks the game is a failure because of those two things, then no the game cannot be salvaged for that person.

If people want to see war assets in progress or decisions have some bigger consequences, there's always DLC to tie things up, or add to the existing.

So the answer to the question really depends on what the problems the person answering the question had with the game.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Stay if wish, moan, yell or howl at the moon for as long as desire. But their stance has been made clear as can be.

I can find solace in being a thorn in someone's side if need be.

That's fine. Free will and such. However like I said that quote is what their stance is. Noone said you had to be happy with their stance but it is what it is of which in this instance I happen to agree with it both in terms of DLC for those who like the products and the common sense regarding what is said within plus no more ending DLC.

Wouldn't be the first time they've changed their minds, I'll take what hope I can get, even a fools hope.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Will Bioware stick to their statements about being done with the ending like they stuck with their pre-release statements?

[KENNY4753]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Will Bioware stick to their statements about being done with the ending like they stuck with their pre-release statements?

It's about a 50/50 chance

[Heather Cline]

Nope, they screwed the fans. Refused to even give us a reunion scene or a scene where Shepard retires after everything. Instead they decided "Artist integrity" and "artistic vision" trumps making people happy.

So BW is dead to me.

[Ariella]

AresKeith wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Stay if wish, moan, yell or howl at the moon for as long as desire. But their stance has been made clear as can be.

I can find solace in being a thorn in someone's side if need be.

Why waste your time and energy when it can go to something more productive than being a thorn?

You says you didn't like the ending. Okay, fair enough, but why. I've seen two types of people one that front. Those who have legitimate reasons for disliking the ending, and those who to paraphrase David Gaider "came up with their own game" and then expected ME 3 to conform to that construct rather than what was actually there. It's a fine line, I'll grant, but there is a line.

So my first question is: was it just the ending(s) that bothered you or was it the entire story? I ask because it gives a basis to start the conversation.

I don't like the way most of the game was handle

Like what. It's hard to have a discussion when one said will only say "I don't like it."

[The_Other_M]

As long as the Catalyst ignores your "Paragon" accomplishments on Rannoch, and Sheperd still doesn't even bother to bring it up as a valid argument FOR synthetic life, and the Crucible being the space battery to the "magic off button" for the Reapers, the game will forever be garbage in my eyes.

Modifié par The_Other_M, 21 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[eddieoctane]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Wrong, game design is art. From the graphics to the writing and music of which all form the released game. Secondly just because you do not consider your own stories to be art does not mean everyone else feels the same.

Because something has artistic elements does not make it art. Tuning an old car is an art. 2 vehicles with the same powertrain driven under similar conditions will not have the same exact peak power at the same tweaks or exhibit the exact same power band. Taking an old carburetor and distributor operated muscle car and maxing it out is both a feat of engineering and a work of art. But the car is sold as a product and the tuning is a service, so what the customer wants supersedes what the mechanic and dealer think is best.

In the same regard, Mass Effect 3 is a product. Don't get me wrong, I think games can be art. But they need to be developed as a work of art from the beginning. In film, some dire3cotrs and writers approach a piece with the intent of it being viewed as a work of art, and some go at it with the intent of giving the audience as much enjoyment as possible, often with some combination of either juvenile humor, lots of explosions, or gratuitous nudity. Mass Effect 3, during its pre-release marketing campaign, had more in common with the later category. As artistic as certain elements of the game might have been, it was very touted as a masterpiece of video game development in the realm of art. And that is why the game isn't art.

If you want to leave the definition of art to the artist, fine. But that definition has to come before the sale. Otherwise, it is perfectly acceptable for the next Office suite to melt your computer and Microsoft can bare no responsibility by claiming it was an artistic statement by the development team on the dependency of modern society on computers.

[Ariella]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Why waste your time and energy when it can go to something more productive than being a thorn?

You says you didn't like the ending. Okay, fair enough, but why. I've seen two types of people one that front. Those who have legitimate reasons for disliking the ending, and those who to paraphrase David Gaider "came up with their own game" and then expected ME 3 to conform to that construct rather than what was actually there. It's a fine line, I'll grant, but there is a line.

So my first question is: was it just the ending(s) that bothered you or was it the entire story? I ask because it gives a basis to start the conversation.

I'd be  wasting just as much time and energy here if I liked the ending, I'd just make fewer polarizing jokes. People here ask questions, I provide answers, opinons, humor and occasional snide comments and engage in discussion in my free time same as you.

Short answer: I feel it falls short of established plots, themes, narrative cohesion, and it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

how did it fall short, and which themes or plots? Where did it break suspension of disbelief?

You don't think actual construcive conversation is better than making joke and wasting energy? Because I have noticed that Bioware does listen, even when the fan base takes a 180 they listen (and this is more a reference to Dragon Age than ME) and they do learn.

[Iakus]

Heather Cline wrote...

Nope, they screwed the fans. Refused to even give us a reunion scene or a scene where Shepard retires after everything. Instead they decided "Artist integrity" and "artistic vision" trumps making people happy.

So BW is dead to me.

Yup.

A lot of missteps can be overlooked if you can at least salvage a happy ending out of the mess.  We were denied even that much.

[AresKeith]

Ariella wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Stay if wish, moan, yell or howl at the moon for as long as desire. But their stance has been made clear as can be.

I can find solace in being a thorn in someone's side if need be.

Why waste your time and energy when it can go to something more productive than being a thorn?

You says you didn't like the ending. Okay, fair enough, but why. I've seen two types of people one that front. Those who have legitimate reasons for disliking the ending, and those who to paraphrase David Gaider "came up with their own game" and then expected ME 3 to conform to that construct rather than what was actually there. It's a fine line, I'll grant, but there is a line.

So my first question is: was it just the ending(s) that bothered you or was it the entire story? I ask because it gives a basis to start the conversation.

I don't like the way most of the game was handle

Like what. It's hard to have a discussion when one said will only say "I don't like it."

I don't like how they pushed the game towards 3rd Person shooter and away from RPG, the over use of auto-dialogue, how Cerberus was basically the main enemy, the forced emotion and forced sacrifice of the main character, and of course the ending

[Conniving_Eagle]

This sums up most of it for me.

Auto-dialogue.
Almost no side missions, but tons of fetch quests.
No Galaxy exploration. No vehicles. No little missions on the faraway planets.
No ME2 characters as a squadmates or even proper LI's.
Crucible. Asspull.
Choices did not matter. Rachni, geth, Collectors base have little to no consequence.
Introduction/beginning.
Catalyst's existence.
Overall plot is very weak.
Bugs. Tons of them.
Journal. How hard was to implement it?
Endings. just bad even with EC they deserve 4/10
Artistic integrity.
That stupid kid, and Shepard's nightmares about him.
The rest of the games are irrelevant thanks to the endings.
Tali's face.
Diana Allers.
Multiplayer affecting Singleplayer.
Citadel being moved through Relays.
Insults from Bioware.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 21 août 2012 - 02:22 .

[KENNY4753]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

This sums up most of it for me.

Auto-dialogue.
Almost no side missions, but tons of fetch quests.
No Galaxy exploration. No vehicles. No little missions on the faraway planets.
No ME2 characters as a squadmates or even proper LI's.
Crucible. Asspull.
Choices did not matter. Rachni, geth, Collectors base have little to no consequence.
Introduction/beginning.
Catalyst's existence.
Overall plot is very weak.
Bugs. Tons of them.
Journal. How hard was to implement it?
Endings. just bad even with EC they deserve 4/10
Artistic integrity.
That stupid kid, and Shepard's nightmares about him.
The rest of the games are irrelevant thanks to the endings.
Tali's face.
Diana Allers.
Multiplayer affecting Singleplayer.
Citadel being moved through Relays.
Insults from Bioware.

yeah you hit most of them there. The one I hated almost as much as the endings was hours of fetch quests. Hell I should have told my 3 year old neice press these buttons on all these planets and save me from the torture that is scanning

[His Name was HYR!!]

 It was salvaged. By EC.


ME3 is good. Even the ending.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Who knew all it took was some slides and extra dialogue to make the endings good.

[Ariella]

The_Other_M wrote...

As long as the Catalyst ignores your "Paragon" accomplishments on Rannoch, and Sheperd still doesn't even bother to bring it up as a valid argument FOR synthetic life, and the Crucible being the space battery to the "magic off button" for the Reapers, the game will forever be garbage in my eyes.

By the time that Shepard makes it to Cat, she's not exactly in a position to debate philosophy considering how beat up she is. I know when I feel like crud I don't tend to higher brain functions like philosophy and Shep's condition is many times worse than my worst day so I'm willing to give leyway.

And Cat doesn't see things the same way, if it did, it'd see that its actions in creating the Reapers betrayed its own purpose, but it CAN'T see that because Cat, for however powerful it is is limited. I'd call Cat more of an advanced VI than a true AI. CAT can't assimilate new information past a certain point. It got caught in a logical rut and couldn't think creatively like a true AI would (EX: EDI). It could only function inside a box until the Crucible and Shepard changed the variables. This is why Shepard has to be the one to affect the final change to a new solution. Cat even says as much. It can't do so, but Shepard can. The Crucible provides both power and it is implied somehow changes the Catalyst's programming enough to see that its "solution" doesn't work anymore.

[Dragoonlordz]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Who knew all it took was some slides and extra dialogue to make the endings good.

Quite a few people asked for epilogue slides who did not enjoy non-EC ending actually.

[iloveexplosives]

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Fiji Indian wrote...

There will always be 50 million complaints until Bioware makes it so that every question is answered with infinitely different endings depending on infinite different choices made throughout the trilogy.

For some reason people think that Bioware has unlimited money, resources, time, and energy to create a trilogy that is perfect in every way, down to the last bit of minutiae.

The game is fine, the DLCs will be entertaining. Get over it.

No one's saying that they have unlimited money, resources, time, and energy.

http://social.biowar...index/10056886/ 

We're saying they lied to us.

To be fair, many things change in the development of a game. What they said may have planned in the game but for some reason it got cut.

So instead of accusing Bioware of lying we should be demanding answers to why none of those promises came true.

Well we're never going to get those answers. Hudson and Walters are hiding in their bunker, the ending is being called art, we're being told to "not get too attached to a plot", so basically BioWare doesn't care about what the fans want.

And before someone says I'm being ungrateful or demanding, but the whole point of a business is to satisfy your customers. Not satisfying your customers and then finding a dozen polite ways to tell them to screw off is not a good way to run a business.

the whole point is to make money...

[D24O]

They should make Diana Allers the canon LI.

[Conniving_Eagle]

D24O wrote...

They should make Diana Allers the canon LI.

I thought they made Cortez canon. He is the right man.