222 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

Quintega wrote...

However No stories are not art. The Story itself maybe called art, but the writer is not an artist. Also Artistic integrety is a term that can only be used for independant artists who either work for free or sell it themselves. Once a middle man A.K.A. EA gets involved Artistic integrety is tossed aside. 

Clearly you don't know what art is.

Quintega wrote... 

Now ART my favorite word on these forums, what one considers art will vary from person to person. However artisic intergrety involves art based on the dictionary term. "arcaic present of 2d singular BE" This is the webster definition.

You just contradicted yourself because everything is art whether you like it or not.

Quintega wrote...  

However there is a reason I said ME doesn't fall under art, due to the player having so much control over the story it loses connection with its author. The player then makes the story their own. This makes Me no more safe under Artistic integrety then Fan fiction.

If thats the case then the ME series wouldn't be in the video game exhibit for the National Smithsonian of Art.  Btw Bioware created ME's story while I'm surprised you aren't complaining about the Elder Scrolls, Fallout, the Witcher, Fable, Diablo, Neverwinter, KotOR, Risen, and Demon Souls.

Quintega wrote...  

The other issue I was addressing was this calling all the fans entitled. The only thing we are entitled to is a honest apology from Bioware admiting they screwed up. Thats all we are entitled to had they just admited their story was broken and full of plot holes and dues ex machina's they the outrage wouldn't have been so bad

It is fan entitlement while you don't realize that there aren't any plot holes or a Dues Ex Machina.  Maybe you should do the research before jumping on the hate bandwagon.

Quintega wrote...  
.
Your final point about it being common in America, I'm one of those people who say, if that is what you believe join the line on the roof. Everyone is jumping so join them. Excusing bad behaviour because everyone else is doing is no different then jumping off the roof with everyone else. Hashing out fan base betrayl is not exceptable no matter how many people do it. But when in gaming it is constanly done by the same 3 companies it makes it that maybe they should learn their lesson. EA and Capcom are notorious for this to the point Capcom of Japan said that the american branch was shameful to them and the company.

Haters gonna hate while if you want to hate EA and Capcom then you go after the whole industry instead of trying to create matyrs based on entitement.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 21 août 2012 - 04:22 .

[Apocaleepse360]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

I know a lot of people are going to start quoting me like mad because of me saying this, but...

If BioWare made a conventional victory possible and added in scenes of your massive fleet kicking the Reapers back into dark space, then yes, ME3 is completely salvagable. Especially if their future DLC added in extra scenes of the war assets gained in that particular DLC.

Come on, a conventional victory may not be realistic, but it's better than what we have now. And having a 10 man squad charge in guns blazing into a base swarming with Collectors wasn't exactly realistic either, but guess what? People enjoyed the endings they could get and the consequences they could face if they made the wrong decisions.

People should also take a look at the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Remember that final battle where Beckett had gathered a massive fleet that could easily wipe out every pirate within just a few hours? Well, if you remember Elizabeth refused to stand down and flee and instead chose to take a stand, despite being heavily outnumbered and outgunned. Look how that turned out. Call it unrealistic, and I'm probably going to get flamed for daring to bring up a Disney film, but the fact remains that it was a pretty epic conclusion in my opinion.

Oh, you mean like this?

"But we want to see it happen in front of our eyes, we want to see our war assets fighting (an epic final battle with Harbinger would also be very nice). We want to see the fleet of council forces going toe to toe with the Reaper fleet, in an incredible Star warsesque clash. We want to see the entire Geth Armada come out of FTL, flanking the Reapers and obliterating several capital ships who are trying to take down the Destiny Ascenscion, and saving it. We want to see Quarian commanders suicide crashing their burning ships into the Reapers, in a last desperate attempt to finish off the enemy, Keelah Se'lai! We want to see Turian fighters, ruthlessly rushing into the fray, dropping nuclear ordinance on capital ships.

Not just in space, we want to see this epic battle unfold on Earth. We want to see tens of thousands of Rachni soldiers swarming a Reaper Destroyer as it helplessly struggles to survive. We want to see Jack and her biotic squad shielding an anti-air outpost from an onslaught of Ravager artillery, so that the outpost can gun down several Harvesters and watch them give out one last guttural scream as they plunge to their deaths. We want to see Grunt charge at a Brute, shouting "I AM KROGAN!!!" as he single-handedly wrestles it to the ground and curb stomps its face into the concrete. We want to see an army of husks rushing a group of powerless Alliance marines who are being overwhelmed. As the marines close their eyes, preparing for the worst, the husks are gunned down by a platoon of Geth Primes. We want to see Liara fighting off multiple Marauders and get saved by a miracle sniper shot from Garrus. We want to see Vega and Ashley/Kaiden back to back, firing off at Cannibals from 360 degrees. We want to see Elcor Tanks relentlessly firing down upon Reapers and decimating them. We want to see Wrex and Wreav taking cover from on-going fire in a trench, then curtly nodding to eachother as they go over the top and lead a battalion of Krogan shocktroopers in a bloodrage battle charge."'


All while playing to some epic song, like Protectors Of The Earth (like in this video - www.youtube.com/watch)

Yeah, pretty much. Although your link is broke

[Blueprotoss]

eddieoctane wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Wrong, game design is art. From the graphics to the writing and music of which all form the released game. Secondly just because you do not consider your own stories to be art does not mean everyone else feels the same.

Because something has artistic elements does not make it art. Tuning an old car is an art. 2 vehicles with the same powertrain driven under similar conditions will not have the same exact peak power at the same tweaks or exhibit the exact same power band. Taking an old carburetor and distributor operated muscle car and maxing it out is both a feat of engineering and a work of art. But the car is sold as a product and the tuning is a service, so what the customer wants supersedes what the mechanic and dealer think is best.

In the same regard, Mass Effect 3 is a product. Don't get me wrong, I think games can be art. But they need to be developed as a work of art from the beginning. In film, some dire3cotrs and writers approach a piece with the intent of it being viewed as a work of art, and some go at it with the intent of giving the audience as much enjoyment as possible, often with some combination of either juvenile humor, lots of explosions, or gratuitous nudity. Mass Effect 3, during its pre-release marketing campaign, had more in common with the later category. As artistic as certain elements of the game might have been, it was very touted as a masterpiece of video game development in the realm of art. And that is why the game isn't art.

If you want to leave the definition of art to the artist, fine. But that definition has to come before the sale. Otherwise, it is perfectly acceptable for the next Office suite to melt your computer and Microsoft can bare no responsibility by claiming it was an artistic statement by the development team on the dependency of modern society on computers.

Art is everything whether its a dumb Justin Beiber song or an okay Jk Rowling book.

[CronoDragoon]

Quintega wrote... 


However there is a reason I said ME doesn't fall under art, due to the player having so much control over the story it loses connection with its author. The player then makes the story their own. This makes Me no more safe under Artistic integrety then Fan fiction.

Some would argue a high degree of interaction with the player/reader/viewer makes art better, not less of a piece of art. Nietzsche certainly feels this way about writing.

Art is something that has so many definitions it no longer means anything coherent to a group, unless that group is specifically dedicated to forming a consensus about the definition of art. 99% of discussion of "art" on these forums operates with the debaters using different definitions of art but not acknowledging this, making such discussions largely worthless.

[Blueprotoss]

IsaacShep wrote...

The_Other_M wrote...

As long as the Catalyst ignores your "Paragon" accomplishments on Rannoch, and Sheperd still doesn't even bother to bring it up as a valid argument FOR synthetic life, and the Crucible being the space battery to the "magic off button" for the Reapers, the game will forever be garbage in my eyes.

If anything, you should argue why can't Crucible become more descriminatory to Destroy only Reapers and not all synthetics when it had no problem becoming more discriminatory to avoid destorying everything, or destroying buildings, or destroying half-synthetic Shep.

But the Catalyst 'agreeing' with what you accomplished on Rannoch does not fit with how he is set up. He is set up with the programming that conflict is inevitable. If in his own cycle the orgaics were always eventually reaching the stage of conflict with synthetics and he then witnessed countless other conflicts through thousands of cycles (including in Javik's cycle), then bringing up a singular evidence of peace with no guarantee that it will last really ain't something a program like him would accept.

People complain about the Catalyst's existance yet at the same time they want him to be "Reapers off" button that agrees to end the cycle if you tell him Geth & Quarian are currently at peace. That's silly, sorry.

Arguing that Crucible should become more discriminatory to spare the Geth is valid because it's already established that it CAN be more and more discriminatory in what it targets. But convincing the Catalyst to turn the Reapers off based on Geth/Quarian evidence is just ehh. Shepard should be able to bring it up, but it would be silly if a program accepted such evidence IMO

The Geth still have Reaper tech in them just like how EDI's body was Reaper tech, which is why they got destroyed in Destroy.

[Iakus]

Blueprotoss wrote...
The Geth still have Reaper tech in them just like how EDI's body was Reaper tech, which is why they got destroyed in Destroy.

The Catalyst specifically say "all synthetic life" and points out that Shepaard is "partly synthetic" and thus at risk.

Reaper tech had nothing to do with why they were targetted.  They were simply arbitrary tragedy.

[Blueprotoss]

iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
The Geth still have Reaper tech in them just like how EDI's body was Reaper tech, which is why they got destroyed in Destroy.

The Catalyst specifically say "all synthetic life" and points out that Shepaard is "partly synthetic" and thus at risk.

Reaper tech had nothing to do with why they were targetted.  They were simply arbitrary tragedy.

Reaper tech is Reaper tech even Shepard had some because of Project Lazarus.  

[Apocaleepse360]

Blueprotoss wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Wrong, game design is art. From the graphics to the writing and music of which all form the released game. Secondly just because you do not consider your own stories to be art does not mean everyone else feels the same.

Because something has artistic elements does not make it art. Tuning an old car is an art. 2 vehicles with the same powertrain driven under similar conditions will not have the same exact peak power at the same tweaks or exhibit the exact same power band. Taking an old carburetor and distributor operated muscle car and maxing it out is both a feat of engineering and a work of art. But the car is sold as a product and the tuning is a service, so what the customer wants supersedes what the mechanic and dealer think is best.

In the same regard, Mass Effect 3 is a product. Don't get me wrong, I think games can be art. But they need to be developed as a work of art from the beginning. In film, some dire3cotrs and writers approach a piece with the intent of it being viewed as a work of art, and some go at it with the intent of giving the audience as much enjoyment as possible, often with some combination of either juvenile humor, lots of explosions, or gratuitous nudity. Mass Effect 3, during its pre-release marketing campaign, had more in common with the later category. As artistic as certain elements of the game might have been, it was very touted as a masterpiece of video game development in the realm of art. And that is why the game isn't art.

If you want to leave the definition of art to the artist, fine. But that definition has to come before the sale. Otherwise, it is perfectly acceptable for the next Office suite to melt your computer and Microsoft can bare no responsibility by claiming it was an artistic statement by the development team on the dependency of modern society on computers.

Art is everything whether its a dumb Justin Beiber song or an okay Jk Rowling book.

Brb, drawing a stick man.

Am I an artist yet? 

[KENNY4753]

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
The Geth still have Reaper tech in them just like how EDI's body was Reaper tech, which is why they got destroyed in Destroy.

The Catalyst specifically say "all synthetic life" and points out that Shepaard is "partly synthetic" and thus at risk.

Reaper tech had nothing to do with why they were targetted.  They were simply arbitrary tragedy.

Reaper tech is Reaper tech even Shepard had some because of Project Lazarus.  

Another reason the endings are retarded. If ALL synthetic life will be destroyed and shep is partly synthetic then no matter what your EMS is then if you choose destroy shep should be dead

[Apocaleepse360]

KENNY4753 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
The Geth still have Reaper tech in them just like how EDI's body was Reaper tech, which is why they got destroyed in Destroy.

The Catalyst specifically say "all synthetic life" and points out that Shepaard is "partly synthetic" and thus at risk.

Reaper tech had nothing to do with why they were targetted.  They were simply arbitrary tragedy.

Reaper tech is Reaper tech even Shepard had some because of Project Lazarus.  

Another reason the endings are retarded. If ALL synthetic life will be destroyed and shep is partly synthetic then no matter what your EMS is then if you choose destroy shep should be dead

Bingo.

[Blueprotoss]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

If BioWare made a conventional victory possible and added in scenes of your massive fleet kicking the Reapers back into dark space, then yes, ME3 is completely salvagable. Especially if their future DLC added in extra scenes of the war assets gained in that particular DLC.

If Sovreign could be defeated without Vigil's aid and Saren's Resurrection then you might have a 1% chance.

Apocaleepse360 wrote... 

Come on, a conventional victory may not be realistic, but it's better than what we have now. And having a 10 man squad charge in guns blazing into a base swarming with Collectors wasn't exactly realistic either, but guess what? People enjoyed the endings they could get and the consequences they could face if they made the wrong decisions.

Opinion is opinion while there's really no ending that everyone will enjoy.

Apocaleepse360 wrote... 

People should also take a look at the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Remember that final battle where Beckett had gathered a massive fleet that could easily wipe out every pirate within just a few hours? Well, if you remember Elizabeth refused to stand down and flee and instead chose to take a stand, despite being heavily outnumbered and outgunned. Look how that turned out. Call it unrealistic, and I'm probably going to get flamed for daring to bring up a Disney film, but the fact remains that it was a pretty epic conclusion in my opinion.

The Flying Dutchmen isn't a conventional victory.

[Blueprotoss]

KENNY4753 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
The Geth still have Reaper tech in them just like how EDI's body was Reaper tech, which is why they got destroyed in Destroy.

The Catalyst specifically say "all synthetic life" and points out that Shepaard is "partly synthetic" and thus at risk.

Reaper tech had nothing to do with why they were targetted.  They were simply arbitrary tragedy.

Reaper tech is Reaper tech even Shepard had some because of Project Lazarus.  

Another reason the endings are retarded. If ALL synthetic life will be destroyed and shep is partly synthetic then no matter what your EMS is then if you choose destroy shep should be dead

Its okay if you don't like it while you won't get it changed unless you have ME1 and ME2 remade.

[Blueprotoss]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Art is everything whether its a dumb Justin Beiber song or an okay Jk Rowling book.

Brb, drawing a stick man.

Am I an artist yet? 

Anyone can become an artist while being successful is a whol different story.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 21 août 2012 - 04:50 .

[Craven1138]

Argetfalcon wrote...

 Could they

No. They had their shot and they blew it. After ending DLC they gave us finger ("reject ending") and said again that their endings are super-cool (by making them even more similar and packing each one with candies and rainbows). Ending renders game and any added content unacceptable.

[Dragoonlordz]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Wrong, game design is art. From the graphics to the writing and music of which all form the released game. Secondly just because you do not consider your own stories to be art does not mean everyone else feels the same.

Because something has artistic elements does not make it art. Tuning an old car is an art. 2 vehicles with the same powertrain driven under similar conditions will not have the same exact peak power at the same tweaks or exhibit the exact same power band. Taking an old carburetor and distributor operated muscle car and maxing it out is both a feat of engineering and a work of art. But the car is sold as a product and the tuning is a service, so what the customer wants supersedes what the mechanic and dealer think is best.

In the same regard, Mass Effect 3 is a product. Don't get me wrong, I think games can be art. But they need to be developed as a work of art from the beginning. In film, some dire3cotrs and writers approach a piece with the intent of it being viewed as a work of art, and some go at it with the intent of giving the audience as much enjoyment as possible, often with some combination of either juvenile humor, lots of explosions, or gratuitous nudity. Mass Effect 3, during its pre-release marketing campaign, had more in common with the later category. As artistic as certain elements of the game might have been, it was very touted as a masterpiece of video game development in the realm of art. And that is why the game isn't art.

If you want to leave the definition of art to the artist, fine. But that definition has to come before the sale. Otherwise, it is perfectly acceptable for the next Office suite to melt your computer and Microsoft can bare no responsibility by claiming it was an artistic statement by the development team on the dependency of modern society on computers.

Art is everything whether its a dumb Justin Beiber song or an okay Jk Rowling book.

Brb, drawing a stick man.

Am I an artist yet? 

If you draw a stick man then yes it is art just like the story of ME3 is art. Whether you wish to call yourself an artist is upto you but what you produced is art. Those trying to disagree should go out and buy a dictionary and look up the definition of the word art. The story is artistic, the graphics are artistic as is the music. They are forms of art, a creative expression from someone. The feeble attempt to distract others from the reality of what it is by trying to hide behind principles of sales and product or perceived subjective quality of that peice of art (in this case the writing and story) does not work.

The extreme contradictions of the very person who posted a reply to my original statement above did them no credit. The game is a product filled with artistic elements and the writing is one of such regardless of whether you think it is good or bad. Artistic integrity is merely keeping and exorizing your right as the creator to decide which is or is not changed rather than giving up that right. It is the creator who chooses what to change and any loss in sales or increase is on their shoulders for it but it should remain their choice to make.

On subject of C-Victory, there should not be a C-Victory. If anything at all it should result in C-Loss. With ships charging in a last ditch effort and then getting all wiped out destroyed by the Reapers.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 août 2012 - 05:22 .

[saracen16]

Headcount wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

"Salvageable" assumes that there is something to salvage.

I don't think so. ME3 was amazing, start to finish.

Before or after the EC?

Both.

[Memnon]

People who liked the endings will probably say nothing needs to be salvaged - so this is directed at those of us who disliked them. In my opinion, no, nothing can salvage it at this point. I loved ME3 up until the post-beam sequence, I despised the Catalyst and I despised the RGB choices. So I won't be buying anything else in the ME universe ...

[AtreiyaN7]

*rolleyes*

The game was and is good - get over it. You will never, ever get a new ending tailored specifically to you and your desire to fly off on a jet-powered unicorn with vapor trail of sparkledust or pew-pewing your way to victory through sheer force of will (since there's no way a conventional victory is realistically going to happen) or whatever else it is that you were hoping for.

[Conniving_Eagle]

For ****'s Sake, Bioware are a company, a busniess! Not artists!

[CronoDragoon]

Stornskar wrote...

People who liked the endings will probably say nothing needs to be salvaged - so this is directed at those of us who disliked them. In my opinion, no, nothing can salvage it at this point. I loved ME3 up until the post-beam sequence, I despised the Catalyst and I despised the RGB choices. So I won't be buying anything else in the ME universe ...

I disliked the endings, and I say nothing needs to be salvaged. Some further tweaks to the ending would be great, but how many video game endings couldn't use further tweaks? The only ones I can think of that are perfect as is are Final Fantasy Tactics, Chrono Trigger, and Metal Gear Solid 3.

[McAllyster]

Mass Effect can be saved. It just about EA's decision.

[BatmanPWNS]

Nope and I hope they don't try. I want them to move on. I don't want ME series to become a cashcow for EA.

[CronoDragoon]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

For ****'s Sake, Bioware are a company, a busniess! Not artists!

An artist is someone who makes art, so this implies you don't believe Mass Effect 3 qualifies. Then how do you define art such that it excludes ME3, or possibly video games?

[Memnon]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

*rolleyes*

The game was and is good - get over it. You will never, ever get a new ending tailored specifically to you and your desire to fly off on a jet-powered unicorn with vapor trail of sparkledust or pew-pewing your way to victory through sheer force of will (since there's no way a conventional victory is realistically going to happen) or whatever else it is that you were hoping for.

What I was hoping for is irrelevant - what I got was the Catalyst and I hated it. So, I'm not getting over it and I'm not buying any ME DLC. I imagine I'm not the only one, but if I am I don't care ...

[Memnon]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

People who liked the endings will probably say nothing needs to be salvaged - so this is directed at those of us who disliked them. In my opinion, no, nothing can salvage it at this point. I loved ME3 up until the post-beam sequence, I despised the Catalyst and I despised the RGB choices. So I won't be buying anything else in the ME universe ...

I disliked the endings, and I say nothing needs to be salvaged. Some further tweaks to the ending would be great, but how many video game endings couldn't use further tweaks? The only ones I can think of that are perfect as is are Final Fantasy Tactics, Chrono Trigger, and Metal Gear Solid 3.

If BW did something along the lines of Broken Steel, then I might think about getting DLC ... but for now I'll just watch via Youtube.